Beer Judge Question

[treacheroustexan]

I'm not sure what kind of clarification someone would be expecting. Like AZ_IPA said judges are often tasting 20+ beers over multiple days.

I guess the point I'm getting at, is yes an american brown ale may have a citrusy hop character. But is it really "lacking" if the brewer didn't want it to and is considered optional in the style guidelines?

 

[bob1852]

IMO what the OP should be taking away from the judges is that the beer didn't have adequate American hop flavor or aroma.

And should've been entered as a porter.

 

[30_Ounce]

Judging is not easy! Calling any judge a moron because you don't agree with his comments is unacceptable. He is trying to give you feedback that compared to the other example in that flight yours lacked the hop aromas he was expecting. I've judged several competitions and your scores are not bad. The bottom line is you are competing against all the other American Browns in that flight and someone brewed a more "classic" example than you did. If you had a score in the 20's or less then we need to talk...

 

[andysim]

Once again, don't care about the score.

I care about the beers (mine and others) being judged correctly.

Maybe I'm wrong, but citrus and/or American hops are not a mandatory criteria for an American Brown Ale according to the BJCP 2008 or BJCP 2015 style guide lines. (BJCP 2008 states that American, UK, or noble hops may be used. BJCP 2015 states that any hop may be used)

Is it an error on the judges part to say that an American Brown Ale should have citrus hops or American hops?

The criteria clearly states that any is hop is acceptable.

Beer judging is difficult, but if you don't know what is supposed to be in the beer (the objective part of judging), you can't know what the beer is supposed to taste and smell like (the subjective part of judging).



According to the feed back I received, this judge thinks that citrus and/or American hops are a mandatory ingredient of the American Brown Ale.

Last time, don't care about the score and get that this judge wanted more hops.

I care about all beers get judged correctly.

 

[andysim]

I agree with Yooper, my interpretation of the judges comments is that your brown ale did not have an appropriate level of American hop character on the nose or the palate. If your beer was sweet it would need an even more assertive hop presence.

In my opinion it's not very good etiquette to email a judge complaining about your score. Most judges will have a copy of the BJCP style guidelines available while scoring a flight. You should try to take constructive criticism from it. For instance it seems like your recipe either lacks American hops or your technique is driving down the beers hops character.

Don't care about the score.

American hops or citrus hops are not a mandatory criteria.

Should the judge just go judging beers incorrectly?

 

[dmtaylor]

As I've alluded to previously, we can try to fix stupid, but success rate is very limited.

Throw that sheet in the trash and forget it happened. Enter more comps, or don't. We can't make a hill of beans difference in the quality of judging, it just is what it is, and the BJCP won't correct the problem either. Is what it is.

 

[andysim]

As I've alluded to previously, we can try to fix stupid, but success rate is very limited.

Throw that sheet in the trash and forget it happened. Enter more comps, or don't. We can't make a hill of beans difference in the quality of judging, it just is what it is, and the BJCP won't correct the problem either. Is what it is.

I don't think he is stupid, I think he misread the guide lines.

My original question was should I tell him he misread the guide lines or let him think that only American citrus hops are to be used.

The 2015 BJCP guide lines let you use any hop that is appropriate for the malt profile.

I will more hops in the beer next time.

 

[espyusmc]

A couple things to consider.

1) Beer judging is largely subjective. The style guidelines are a great description of the variations that can encompass a style. That being said, beer judge sensory thresholds are all different and their ability to pickup on subtle differences varies according to experience.

2) Most competitions I've judged at typically have one experienced judge (maybe not BJCP ranked) and one new guy/gal. They are looking to gain valuable experience evaluating beers and may not know the range that can fit a particular style. Depending on the size of the competition, the BJCP judge might not have time to train the new judge. It's a quick discussion on what you tasted and how it fit the style and its current position in the flight.

3) All judges are volunteering their day / weekend to evaluate beer. They're getting valuable experience, but again it is on a volunteer basis. Please respect their time spent with your beer. You may not agree with their sheet, but it's not personal. Trust me, they are doing the best they can and honestly trying to find the best brew in the flight.

4) I have received one email a couple years ago about a stylistic concern and welcomed the dialogue. I guarantee the judge would love to talk about beer. Probably not about scores differences since they probably won't remember the exact brew.

My two cents...well four.

 

[Gavin C]

I think when entering a competition one should expect to receive pointers and criticisms that does not gel with your own view.

Interpretation of flavors or in this case the judges interpretation of the guidelines. I suspect it is ofetn the case that judges will compare beers in a given flight and make notes reflective of that.

But I do see your point OP, I don't interpret it in the same exact way.

I have only recently started entering competitions. I entered 1 particular beer in two different competitions. It was judged by 2 BJCP judges in each and scored 44,43 in one and 29,29 in the other. I was puzzled to say the least and even (quite arrogantly and fleetingly) thought to myself "they must have mixed up the beer with another entrant" such was the difference in description of the beer.

My point is that I will continue to enter beers, look at any trends that indicate areas to improve upon, pat myself on the back and lick my wounds as needed. I don't think there is any value in emailing a judge. I think it's bad form to be honest. The beer was judged notes written and rapidly forgotten about.

The interpretation of the style by the judge and putting it in writing may not always be the clearest. The thrust of the point is clear though. The beer was not as good an example of an American Brown as others in the flight, next time, up the character of the American hop if you hope to score higher. That's how I see it, rightly or wrongly, what the judge was trying to convey.

As a side note, given the time, effort and financial comittment that goes into becoming BJCP certified, I think a modicum of respect for the judges is warranted and think some of the remarks (by others not the OP) in the thread could have done with some self-editing.

Best of luck to you in future competitions.

 

[m00ps]

Wow....this really kept on rolling. I don't think anyone that gets qualified as a BJCP judge is a moron by any means....but what about my 100% Brett that got dinged for not being funky? Isnt that a complete disregard for the nuances of the style?

 

[kombat]

Once again, don't care about the score.

I care about the beers (mine and others) being judged correctly.

I think you're getting butthurt over nothing. Judge #2 scored the beer within 3 points of judge #1. I think perhaps maybe you should consider that the judge wrote "lack of hop aroma" or whatever not as a flaw, but merely as an observation. The style lists it as optional, and when he/she tasted your beer, he/she noticed there was none. Maybe that's all they meant. Maybe you're reading too much into this. Did they explicitly say, "I'm deducting points because this beer lacks citrusy hop aroma?"

If they mentioned "Deep brown hue, brilliant clarity" in the "Appearance" section, and gave you a 2/3, would you immediately presume that they were expecting something else? That they docked you points because they mistakenly thought that the attributes they listed were inappropriate for the style?

I'm inclined to give the judge the benefit of the doubt. They have to write something in each section, and I think in this case, they were merely making observations, then came up with a subjective score. I think you are the one making the assumption that what they're listing are (in their erroneous opinion) flaws, rather than mere observations.

As others have said, no judge is perfect, everyone is different, beer judging is subjective. If your feelings got hurt, then don't enter any more competitions. Or take what you do consider as valid criticism and improve your beers. Disregard the comments that are clearly wrong.

What will contacting the judge accomplish? You know what the guidelines are. What do you want from them? To admit they screwed up? To re-judge your beer and adjust your score upwards, changing the outcome of the competition? A public apology? I just don't see what you hope to gain by tugging at that thread. Let it go.

 

[bob1852]

I think you're getting butthurt over nothing. Judge #2 scored the beer within 3 points of judge #1. I think perhaps maybe you should consider that the judge wrote "lack of hop aroma" or whatever not as a flaw, but merely as an observation. The style lists it as optional, and when he/she tasted your beer, he/she noticed there was none. Maybe that's all they meant. Maybe you're reading too much into this. Did they explicitly say, "I'm deducting points because this beer lacks citrusy hop aroma?"

If they mentioned "Deep brown hue, brilliant clarity" in the "Appearance" section, and gave you a 2/3, would you immediately presume that they were expecting something else? That they docked you points because they mistakenly thought that the attributes they listed were inappropriate for the style?

I'm inclined to give the judge the benefit of the doubt. They have to write something in each section, and I think in this case, they were merely making observations, then came up with a subjective score. I think you are the one making the assumption that what they're listing are (in their erroneous opinion) flaws, rather than mere observations.

As others have said, no judge is perfect, everyone is different, beer judging is subjective. If your feelings got hurt, then don't enter any more competitions. Or take what you do consider as valid criticism and improve your beers. Disregard the comments that are clearly wrong.

What will contacting the judge accomplish? You know what the guidelines are. What do you want from them? To admit they screwed up? To re-judge your beer and adjust your score upwards, changing the outcome of the competition? A public apology? I just don't see what you hope to gain by tugging at that thread. Let it go.

Well said.

A judge's comment of "lacks American hops" isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's merely an observation, which is what the comments in the first four sections are (how the judge perceives your beer). American and/or citrus hops are mentioned several times in the guidelines for this style.

It may have been better served as entered in British Brown Ale (13B in the 2015 guidelines)

 

[aprichman]

To the OP - under aroma and flavor did the judge make any other mention of hops for flavor or aroma descriptions? If not that probably means there was NO hop flavor or aroma that was observed.

As a BJCP judge here's my opinion of the taste and aroma of an American Brown Ale

Aroma: Should be balanced with dark/sweet aromas from the malt and at least some hops on the nose. I'm likely to score an ABA higher if the hops clearly make themselves known and compliment or enhance the malt aroma.

Taste: Should be fairly clean and even more balanced. Dark/sweet tastes should be balanced with not only an appropriate amount of bitterness but hop character as well. Should finish fairly dry and not be cloying.

If there were two American Brown Ales were entered into a mini BOS that were equally well crafted where one had American hop character while the other had Noble hop character, I would be inclined to advance the ABA with the American hop character.

 

[dmtaylor]

If there were two American Brown Ales were entered into a mini BOS that were equally well crafted where one had American hop character while the other had Noble hop character, I would be inclined to advance the ABA with the American hop character.

Why? What's your basis? "'Cuz 'Merica" doesn't cut it for me and shouldn't for any entrant whose example fits well within the bounds of the style guideline. Opinion ain't right, at least not until you get to the BOS round. But for just filling out a scoresheet? No way. This is exactly what's wrong with BJCP judging -- unjustified subjectivity when scoring a beer against what is specifically documented in the guidelines. There's no opinion, no subjectivity, allowed, except perhaps in the "Overall Impression" section, but that is all. Dinging a score in the flavor or aroma section for not meeting the judge's opinion of what's best for the style is WRONG IMO.

EDIT: I see now that you were talking about mini-BOS and not scoring. Even so, I wish we'd take greater care to avoid subjectivity, there's way way way too much of that going on.

 

[beernutz]

I think you're getting butthurt over nothing. Judge #2 scored the beer within 3 points of judge #1. I think perhaps maybe you should consider that the judge wrote "lack of hop aroma" or whatever not as a flaw, but merely as an observation. The style lists it as optional, and when he/she tasted your beer, he/she noticed there was none. Maybe that's all they meant. Maybe you're reading too much into this. Did they explicitly say, "I'm deducting points because this beer lacks citrusy hop aroma?"

If they mentioned "Deep brown hue, brilliant clarity" in the "Appearance" section, and gave you a 2/3, would you immediately presume that they were expecting something else? That they docked you points because they mistakenly thought that the attributes they listed were inappropriate for the style?

I'm inclined to give the judge the benefit of the doubt. They have to write something in each section, and I think in this case, they were merely making observations, then came up with a subjective score. I think you are the one making the assumption that what they're listing are (in their erroneous opinion) flaws, rather than mere observations.

As others have said, no judge is perfect, everyone is different, beer judging is subjective. If your feelings got hurt, then don't enter any more competitions. Or take what you do consider as valid criticism and improve your beers. Disregard the comments that are clearly wrong.

What will contacting the judge accomplish? You know what the guidelines are. What do you want from them? To admit they screwed up? To re-judge your beer and adjust your score upwards, changing the outcome of the competition? A public apology? I just don't see what you hope to gain by tugging at that thread. Let it go.

To take the devil's advocate position, though I am not currently a judge (I have judged a few times before about 20 years ago but did not get a BJCP certification) if I was and I wrote something on a scoresheet which was counter to the BJCP guidelines I would appreciate knowing about it if it was presented to me in a constructive way in order to not make the same mistake again.

 

[Yooper]

Why? What's your basis? "'Cuz 'Merica" doesn't cut it for me and shouldn't for any entrant whose example fits well within the bounds of the style guideline.

Well, call me crazy, but an AMERICAN brown ale may be noted to have American hops or not, in the comments section of the scoresheet.

It doesn't mean that points were deducted, but if the hops are not American in flavor and aroma, it is worth noting.

"Hop flavor can be light to moderate, and may optionally have a citrusy, fruity, or tropical character, although any hop flavor that complements the malt is acceptable."

and

"American hops are typical, but continental or New World hops can also be used."

To me, saying that "any hop flavor is acceptable" means that the beer won't be gigged by not having distinct American hops character (and this beer wasn't) and it also says that American hops are typical. This judge simply noted on the scoresheet that "citrusy hops were not noted". It's not a plus or a minus- it's a fact. If the brewer used a boatload of cascade, then the judge made an error. But writing about what he perceived is what we are told (and trained) to do.

 

[aprichman]

Why? What's your basis? "'Cuz 'Merica" doesn't cut it for me and shouldn't for any entrant whose example fits well within the bounds of the style guideline. Opinion ain't right, at least not until you get to the BOS round. But for just filling out a scoresheet? No way. This is exactly what's wrong with BJCP judging -- unjustified subjectivity when scoring a beer against what is specifically documented in the guidelines. There's no opinion, no subjectivity, allowed, except perhaps in the "Overall Impression" section, but that is all. Dinging a score in the flavor or aroma section for not meeting the judge's opinion of what's best for the style is WRONG IMO.

Convenient that you ignored the part where I said, "If two brown ales that were equally well crafted made it to the mini BOS".

Judging isn't entirely subjective but it's stupid to think you can remove the human element from a beer panel. A beer competition is going to give you a general consensus of what knowledgeable beer drinkers think about your beer in terms of style, off flavors, overall impression, etc. If you wan't a completely objective opinion send your beer to a lab for analysis.

 

[dmtaylor]

Convenient that you ignored the part where I said, "If two brown ales that were equally well crafted made it to the mini BOS".

I didn't conveniently ignore, see my EDIT that I posted shortly after my original response.

Judging isn't entirely subjective but it's stupid to think you can remove the human element from a beer panel. A beer competition is going to give you a general consensus of what knowledgeable beer drinkers think about your beer in terms of style, off flavors, overall impression, etc. If you wan't a completely objective opinion send your beer to a lab for analysis.

You have a good point here. We are all human.

 

[dmtaylor]

To me, saying that "any hop flavor is acceptable" means that the beer won't be gigged by not having distinct American hops character (and this beer wasn't) and it also says that American hops are typical. This judge simply noted on the scoresheet that "citrusy hops were not noted". It's not a plus or a minus- it's a fact. If the brewer used a boatload of cascade, then the judge made an error. But writing about what he perceived is what we are told (and trained) to do.

I agree. I hope he's not dinged on the scoring due to lack of American hops -- that would be wrong. I do agree that it's good information to note there was no obvious American hop presence if that's his/her perception. It is indeed as important to note what is NOT perceived as what is perceived.

I'm not a complete ass. Just mostly.

 

[stpug]

It's been clearly presented that american/citrus/new world hops are not a requirement for this style per the guideline aroma/flavor sections, however the guidelines also provide a style comparison section which DOES indicate american/new world hop character. Clearly this is an inconsistency (and error) with the guidelines - one that should be brought to the guideline committee's attention IMO.

Style Comparison: More chocolate and caramel type flavors
than American Pale or Amber Ales, typically with less
prominent bitterness in the balance. Less bitterness, alcohol,
and hop character than Brown IPAs. More bitter and generally
hoppier than English Brown Ales, with a richer malt presence,
usually higher alcohol, and American/New World hop
character.

As for contacting the judge, that's up to you. Do it or don't, and move on.

 

[srob18]

It's written in the guidelines that American citrus hops are optional.

How many Browns have a citrus hop flavor?

That's my point, i can't remember ever having 1 with those flavors.

 

[andysim]

1.There is no butthurt
2. Don't care about the score.
3. I just want the judge to judge American Browns correctly
4. I don't know how else you are to interpret "no American Citrus hops in aroma" as that the judge thought American Citrus hops were supposed to be in the beer. That is just not a random observation. He didn't say " no earthy UK hops were detected" or " cranberry aroma not detected" just because he didn't detect it.
5. I'm going to brew this beer again with American hops. If it doesn't score better, I will be butthurt, I will care about the score, and for everyone who defended this judge's poor choice of words, I will drive to your house and throw a full pint of this American Brown Ale through your front window.
6. I will post the new score in the next three months
7. Cheers
8. Happy Halloween

 

[CaliforniaJones]

Beer Judges don't spit. He was probably drunk.

 

[hunter_le five]

5. I'm going to brew this beer again with American hops. If it doesn't score better, I will be butthurt, I will care about the score, and for everyone who defended this judge's poor choice of words, I will drive to your house and throw a full pint of this American Brown Ale through your front window.

BJCP judges are never wrong.

Now gimme my free beer!

 

[iijakii]

BJCP judges are never wrong.

Now gimme my free beer!

One crappy too sweet brown ale without hops headed your way!

 

[andysim]

It's gonna have 12 oz of citra hops grown in Murica.

 

[jekeane]

I'm not sure competition brewing is for the op if you are going to be this stressed over it. If the judge had said complete lack of hop presence in aroma and flavor excluding the word American it seems like you would be ok with the scoresheet.

You assumed a score of 31-33 and got a 29.5 that's not far off. After recently judging at two large competitions I can tell you there is such a thing a judging fatigue. Many judges can only judge so many 25-low 30 beers before their scoring sheets get less complete and more general.
In one of those competitions I had 3 flights of American ales where we had to fight to find two beers to push to round two. By the last flight I just wanted to write why the hell did you enter an apa that is as dark as a brown with less hop character than a bud light?

 

[andysim]

I'm not sure competition brewing is for the op if you are going to be this stressed over it. If the judge had said complete lack of hop presence in aroma and flavor excluding the word American it seems like you would be ok with the scoresheet.



You assumed a score of 31-33 and got a 29.5 that's not far off. After recently judging at two large competitions I can tell you there is such a thing a judging fatigue. Many judges can only judge so many 25-low 30 beers before their scoring sheets get less complete and more general.

In one of those competitions I had 3 flights of American ales where we had to fight to find two beers to push to round two. By the last flight I just wanted to write why the hell did you enter an apa that is as dark as a brown with less hop character than a bud light?

1. Did I mention in any of my 5 previous posts I don't care about the score.
2. I never get stressed when have.
3. I get stressed when I can't find beer.

 

[hunter_le five]

Being butthurt is like being an alcoholic: the more you insist you're not, the less people believe you.

 

[andysim]

1. Did I mention in any of my 5 previous posts I don't care about the score.
2. I never get stressed when have.
3. I get stressed when I can't find beer.

Being butthurt is like being an alcoholic: the more you insist you're not, the less people believe you.

Exactly!!! I should have said I was pissed about the score and did not care about the American citrus hops issue.

I will do that next time.