Beer is consistently too sweet

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jeff2335

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I can't quite figure out what is going on. It seems like every beer I brew is consistently too sweet. I've gone through every cause that I can think of and am not seeing anything that I'm doing wrong. I do all grain brewing with a 48 qt cooler MLT and boil in 7.5 gallon pot. My usual starting volume is around 6.5 gallons and boils down to about 5.5 gallons. I hit pretty close to my target gravity every time. I started to mash at lower temps to dry it out a bit but still the same problem. I check my mash temps with 3 different thermometers 2 being digital and one being glass, and I'm on the spot every time. I make sure my hop additions are at the right times and make sure the AA% matches for the bitterness I'm trying to achieve. The last 3 brews I've done I made sure I had a nice vigorous boil with no boil overs and no loss of hop material. The wort is cooled quickly with an immersion chiller poured into my primary and yeast pitched at the temp I want. I don't have a fermenting fridge yet but will soon, so for now I put it in a basin with water and rotate frozen water bottles, and this keeps it in the mid 60's. I only control the temps for the first week or so then transfer to secondary and let sit at room temp for another 3 weeks (about 70 degrees) then keg, carb and tap. My final gravities are always where I want them for the style, my last SNPA clone finished at 1.008 and still tasted sweet. The last thing I can think of is the water I'm using, I plan on getting a water report sometime soon but I've done batches with just bottled water and have the same problem. And lastly I thought maybe it was just my taste but most of my friends have said the same thing. I don't see an issues with anything I'm doing but maybe there is something I'm not seeing...
 
are you using lots of crystal malts in each recipe that tastes sweet? what about your pitching rate, are you making starters or just pitching a tube? sprinkling dry yeast or rehydrating? what your describing sounds like it might be a yeast issue.
 
A "sweet" beer may have a couple of causes. At 1.008, underattenuation isn't one of them.

That means that it's probably recipe related. That can be that the beer is underhopped, or that it's got too much crystal malt in it.

Can you give us a typical recipe?
 
This is the last recipe I put together and brewed -

9.00 lb Pale Ale Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 85.71 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.76 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4.76 %
0.50 lb Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4.76 %
0.50 oz Warrior [16.90 %] (60 min) Hops 29.4 IBU
0.50 oz Centennial [6.80 %] (10 min) Hops 4.3 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (10 min) Hops 3.0 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
S-05 yeast

Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Alcohol by Vol: 5.21 %
Bitterness: 36.7 IBU
Color: 9.6 SRM

Mashed at about 151 degrees for 60 mins

before that was https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/nierra-sevada-session-snpa-clone-27673/

Both turned out too sweet. I don't think it's an over use of crystal malt because I believe the general rule is no more than 10% of the grain bill and with the carapils and the crystal 60 I'm under 10. I do use the S-05 yeast quite a bit and always get to the gravity I'm looking for, as for a fruity after taste I have not noticed that, it's more of an upfront sweetness. When I use dry yeast I don't usually make a starter, I just rehydrate and pitch. I usually only make a starter if I am brewing a beer with a high OG (1.060 or higher). As for high chlorides in the water, I'll find out soon when I get my water report but I have done a couple of brews using different bottled waters and one using a mix of bottled and tap.

The only other things I can think of is that I'm just not getting the utilization from my hops that beersmith and other recipes are telling me, or my homebrew supplier is writing incorrect AA% on the hops.

Thanks for the help so far guys.
 
Since you're doing all grain there is no point in using carapils, dextrine content can be increased by higher mash temps.
 
Try the same recipe, but increase your bittering hops by a factor of 1.5. Do you usually drink hoppy beers? Has anyone else tasted these brews and commented on them being sweet? If not, have some friends taste them and get their thoughts without sharing your feelings on the beer first.

It looks like a pretty balanced recipe to me. Freaky!
 
36 IBUs, with 30 of them coming from the 60 minute hops isn't going to be bitter in a 1.050 beer. At this moment, I'm drinking a pale that was 1.053 and had 42 IBUs. It's not bitter, but it's not sweet either. But the IBU/SG ratio is .777.

For more "firm" bittering, in APAs and IPAs, try to "match" your IBUs to OGs a bit closer. What I mean by that is in a 1.050 beer with a reasonable amount of crystal, try 50 IBUs, getting 35-40 of them in the first 60 minute addition.

I don't use carapils in most beers, so I'd ditch that for sure, but I don't think that's the cause of your problem.

What kind of water are you using? Sometimes (but not usually) water chemistry can play a role.
 
My friends that tried the beer told me it was sweet without me telling them anything (although they did like it), that's when it started to bug me because I was thinking the same thing. I drink alot of different styles, but over the past few months have really started to like the hoppier beers.

36 IBUs, with 30 of them coming from the 60 minute hops isn't going to be bitter in a 1.050 beer. At this moment, I'm drinking a pale that was 1.053 and had 42 IBUs. It's not bitter, but it's not sweet either. But the IBU/SG ratio is .777.

For more "firm" bittering, in APAs and IPAs, try to "match" your IBUs to OGs a bit closer. What I mean by that is in a 1.050 beer with a reasonable amount of crystal, try 50 IBUs, getting 35-40 of them in the first 60 minute addition.
Click to expand...

I was wondering about IBU's and how they relate to time boiled, I know the longer they boil the more IBU's are extracted, but is there a difference between IBU's from a late hop addition and a 60 min? Should I not really rely on the IBU's from my late additions?

You make a good point about matching IBU's to the OG, I will definitely give that a shot on my next brew and try to get most of my bitterness from my 60 min addition.

:mug:
 
jeff2335 said:
My friends that tried the beer told me it was sweet without me telling them anything (although they did like it), that's when it started to bug me because I was thinking the same thing. I drink alot of different styles, but over the past few months have really started to like the hoppier beers.

I was wondering about IBU's and how they relate to time boiled, I know the longer they boil the more IBU's are extracted, but is there a difference between IBU's from a late hop addition and a 60 min? Should I not really rely on the IBU's from my late additions?

You make a good point about matching IBU's to the OG, I will definitely give that a shot on my next brew and try to get most of my bitterness from my 60 min addition.

:mug:
Click to expand...

I also would like to learn more about how hop additions at different times affect taste. My beers seem to be more towards the bitter side but they lack aroma, taste, flavor. Thank you everyone.
 
bmason1623 said:
I also would like to learn more about how hop additions at different times affect taste. My beers seem to be more towards the bitter side but they lack aroma, taste, flavor. Thank you everyone.
Click to expand...

The 60 minute hops provide bitterness, as do any additions added to the beer before about 20 minutes or so. Hops oils only isomerize at boiling temperatures, so adding hops with less than 15 minutes or so will give less bitterness. While they give less bitterness, they provide other things like flavor. "Flavor" hops are ideally added at 15-20 minutes. "Aroma" hops added often added to the boil with 5 minutes or less.

What all that means is that if you want hops aroma, taste, flavor, you want to add more hops later in the boil. Some beer styles, like dry stout for an example, have very little hops flavor or aroma so usually hops are only added at the 60 minute (bittering) addition. My hoppy beers have additions at 60 minutes, 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 5 minutes, 0 minutes and often dryhopping. That's a huge difference! And it will show in the taste of the beers.
 
Thank you, yooper. I'll keep this in mind. I also think that I just need to experiment until I get a "feel" for it. A perfect excuse to brew some more and more!
 
Yooper said:
36 IBUs, with 30 of them coming from the 60 minute hops isn't going to be bitter in a 1.050 beer. At this moment, I'm drinking a pale that was 1.053 and had 42 IBUs. It's not bitter, but it's not sweet either. But the IBU/SG ratio is .777.

For more "firm" bittering, in APAs and IPAs, try to "match" your IBUs to OGs a bit closer. What I mean by that is in a 1.050 beer with a reasonable amount of crystal, try 50 IBUs, getting 35-40 of them in the first 60 minute addition.

I don't use carapils in most beers, so I'd ditch that for sure, but I don't think that's the cause of your problem.

What kind of water are you using? Sometimes (but not usually) water chemistry can play a role.
Click to expand...

I don't think 36 ibus at 1.050 is going to exactly leave an under bittered beer though and certainly not a sweet perception. Sierra Nevada, for instance, is 37 ibus at 1.052, which is not so far off from that and is certainly not sweet or under bittered. Depends on your tastes, of course. If you really like bitter beers then 50 ibus for a 1.050 beer would be good but for me that's too high.

Then again, everybody posting in this thread may not be using the same math for calculating their ibus. I use Rager (I know Tinseth is supposedly more accurate, but I'm *used* to Rager when formulating my recipes after all these years, so I'm sticking with it) and for a good APA I tend to shoot for something similar to Sierra Nevada as far as bitterness is concerned. I tend to like .70-.80 BU/GU ratios myself (not for all beers, of course).

For the original poster:

Try making a SMaSH of some kind and see if that's too sweet for you. If you use a nice base malt and pick a hop you wanna try, it'll be a fun experiment and the resulting beer should be very good. This will eliminate crystal as a variable and let you see if you still have the problem.
 
I don't think 36 ibus at 1.050 is going to exactly leave an under bittered beer though and certainly not a sweet perception. Sierra Nevada, for instance, is 37 ibus at 1.052, which is not so far off from that and is certainly not sweet or under bittered. Depends on your tastes, of course. If you really like bitter beers then 50 ibus for a 1.050 beer would be good but for me that's too high.
Click to expand...

I was kind of thinking the same thing when I put the recipe together, I looked at Sierra Nevada's website and I wanted similar bitterness in my beer.

Try making a SMaSH of some kind and see if that's too sweet for you. If you use a nice base malt and pick a hop you wanna try, it'll be a fun experiment and the resulting beer should be very good. This will eliminate crystal as a variable and let you see if you still have the problem.
Click to expand...

Think I will give this a shot and experiment with the bitterness. I'm thinking that I'm not really getting the IBU's that my software is telling me....This at least gives me an excuse to brew more beer. :D
 
jeff2335 said:
I was kind of thinking the same thing when I put the recipe together, I looked at Sierra Nevada's website and I wanted similar bitterness in my beer.



Think I will give this a shot and experiment with the bitterness. I'm thinking that I'm not really getting the IBU's that my software is telling me....This at least gives me an excuse to brew more beer. :D
Click to expand...

Should be tasty, I'd guess. Might bump up the ibus a touch though just in case. Cheers!
 
I think the key here is that you are using Pale Ale malt, but you are using specialty malts as if you are using normal 2-row. This same thing happens when people convert a recipe from 2-row to Maris Otter and don't cut down the specialty malts.

Pale ale, or Pacific Northwest Pale Malt, is 3L instead of normal 2-row's 1.5-2L. This causes a sweeter flavor to be imparted on to the beer and therefore less Crystal and other specialty malts should be used. I use pale malt consistently and if I were making an SNPA clone I would not use more than .25lb of C15 in 5gal and no other malts besides the base.
 
I'd also try some Fast Ferment Tests just to be sure. A beer that finishes at 1.008 would seem to indicate that it fermented fully...unless you did an FFT that ended at 1.004 (and FWIW I've had a 1.100 OG Belgian beer finish at 1.004...and it still tastes sweet but because of all that alcohol).

I also agree with verifying your IBU calculations (or just getting a better feel for whatever number they give). I'm at the other end of the spectrum as Yooper, if I made a 50 IBU (calculated via Tinseth) beer with an OG of 1.050 it would be almost undrinkable, even 35 IBU would be very, very bitter.
 
I would still be suspect of my thermometers and hydrometer. I have a few digital thermometers, and according to my new thermapen, the best one is 2-3 degrees off in the mash range, unacceptable to me. I recently checked my hydrometer, it was WAY off, bought a new one, it was two points off out of the tube.

You can't trust anything when it comes to numbers.


_
 
Chris White mentions:
Recipe
Attenuation
Certain alcohols (Sweet, but not cloying, that tails off)
Pitching rates affect IBU level
 
I think the key here is that you are using Pale Ale malt, but you are using specialty malts as if you are using normal 2-row. This same thing happens when people convert a recipe from 2-row to Maris Otter and don't cut down the specialty malts.

Pale ale, or Pacific Northwest Pale Malt, is 3L instead of normal 2-row's 1.5-2L. This causes a sweeter flavor to be imparted on to the beer and therefore less Crystal and other specialty malts should be used. I use pale malt consistently and if I were making an SNPA clone I would not use more than .25lb of C15 in 5gal and no other malts besides the base.
Click to expand...

I never thought about this. Would using pale malt vs 2 row really make that big of an impact on the taste?
 
Actually, I have both Greatwestern pale and pale ale. The pale ale tastes a little sweeter than the pale malt. I wouldn't say that it makes the finished beer sweeter, just maltier. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale uses standard 2row and Deschutes Mirror Pond uses the pale ale malt and there is a big difference between the two.
 
dino2gnt said:
I'm pretty certain Lovibond is just a measure of color.
Click to expand...

Yes, lovibond is a measure of color, which is created by kilning the malt. The longer you kiln, the higher the color or lovibond, and the more sweet flavors it creates.

Crystal, for example, is 2row that has been kilned longer. It leaves an obviously sweet or caramelly taste, even at only 5% of the grist.
 
andrew300 said:
Actually, I have both Greatwestern pale and pale ale. The pale ale tastes a little sweeter than the pale malt. I wouldn't say that it makes the finished beer sweeter, just maltier. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale uses standard 2row and Deschutes Mirror Pond uses the pale ale malt and there is a big difference between the two.
Click to expand...

Right. The same thing happens when you compare 2row to Maris Otter, but with a slightly different flavor.
 
DKershner said:
Yes, lovibond is a measure of color, which is created by kilning the malt. The longer you kiln, the higher the color or lovibond, and the more sweet flavors it creates.

Crystal, for example, is 2row that has been kilned longer. It leaves an obviously sweet or caramelly taste, even at only 5% of the grist.
Click to expand...

Crystal is not just 2 row that's been kilned longer. It's a different process from regular malt.

The terms Crystal malt and Caramel malt are used interchangeably to describe a type of grain that undergoes a special stewing process during malting resulting in a crystalline sugar structure inside the grain's hull. These grains give a sweet, caramel flavor to the finished beer and can almost always be used as steeping grains by extract brewers. This type of specialty grain can be easily made at home from any base malt.

The crystallization/caramelization process

To make crystal or caramel malt, maltsters take green malt and, instead of heating it in a dry kiln, stew it in an extremely damp or wet oven. In the presence of water, each kernel of grain essentially undergoes a mash in the hull, converting the grain's starch to sugar. However, since the grain is not crushed, the sugar does not go into solution and create wort. Instead, when the temperature is lowered, the sugar crystallizes in the hull, giving the grain the appearance of a crystal of sugar. The malt is then dried over heat, with the drying temperature and time determining the color and flavor characteristics of the finished product.

Brewing with crystal and caramel malt

Because the stewing process essentially mashes the grain, crystal and caramel malts are some of the few steeping grains that can be used in extract brewing without needing to be mashed, although some of the palest crystal malts may not be sufficiently converted and may leave haze in the finished beer. All-grain brewers may also simply add crystal malts to the mash as they would any other specialty malt.

Because their other options are limited, new brewers brewing extract batches often depend on crystal malts, sometimes to excess. While crystal malts in small amounts will give a sweet malt character to the finished beer, in excess it can create a cloying or artificial character. Crystal malts also add to a beer's body and increase head retention.
Click to expand...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Crystal_malt

Furthermore, higher kilned malts don't necessarily make the malt or beer sweeter.
 
I don't think you mentioned how soon you're drinking the beer. I've noticed in my own beers, that if I give them a few extra weeks in the bottle, the hop bitterness starts to come forward, and the sweetness dies down considerably.
 
dedndcrusr said:
I don't think you mentioned how soon you're drinking the beer. I've noticed in my own beers, that if I give them a few extra weeks in the bottle, the hop bitterness starts to come forward, and the sweetness dies down considerably.
Click to expand...

Depending on what I'm making usually keg after about a month.
 
jeff2335 said:
Depending on what I'm making usually keg after about a month.
Click to expand...

I've found that my pale ales are usually at their best around 6-7 weeks. They're certainly drinkable at 4 weeks, but seem to get better as they age a little. I'm not sure that really helps with the problem you are having though.
 
I to have a consistent sweet problem more of a smell though. I normally ferment 7-10days primary and secondary for the same and around 3weeks I put it in the fridge. I start sampling after 4weeks or so. Should I leave it at room temp after secondary or can it condition in the fridge.
 

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