BE-256 dry Fermetis 'abbey'; has anyone used it , results?

[couchsending]

Be-256 intrigues me. Not necessarily to use on it’s own but to blend in with other yeasts to potentially increase attenuation and flocculation. I wonder how little it takes to get those benefits without the banana bomb. Anyone used it cold? To see if it mitigates some of the isoamyl acetate?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Their website says:
"To maintain the aromatic profile at the end of the fermentation, we do recommend to crop this yeast as soon as possible after fermentation."

I'm wondering what "the end of fermentation" means and what specific flavors and aromas might be altered by cropping or not cropping.

Yeast break down esters.
"End of fermentation" is when the beer reaches final gravity.

 

[Tyler B]

Yeast break down esters.
"End of fermentation" is when the beer reaches final gravity.

OK, since I will likely reach final gravity twice, once with the original wort and then once again after the sugar addition, do you think Fermentis intends for people to crop twice?

 

[RPh_Guy]

OK, since I will likely reach final gravity twice, once with the original wort and then once again after the sugar addition, do you think Fermentis intends for people to crop twice?

No.

Adding the sugar at the beginning will likely result in more flavor.

 

[Tyler B]

RPh, can I ask why? Is that common knowledge or based on your experience? Genuinely curious and trying to learn more here. Thanks!

 

[frankvw]

Yeast break down esters.
"End of fermentation" is when the beer reaches final gravity.

But cropping yeast or transferring the beer to a secondary vessel does not change that, since it is the yeast cells still in suspension that are responsible for the re-uptake of certain organoleptics. Only filtration and/or pasteurization would prevent that. So in the context on when to crop yeast this can't be relevant...

 

[mediant]

But cropping yeast or transferring the beer to a secondary vessel does not change that, since it is the yeast cells still in suspension that are responsible for the re-uptake of certain organoleptics. Only filtration and/or pasteurization would prevent that. So in the context on when to crop yeast this can't be relevant...

You're both right, with one point missing. Dying (autolysed) yeast break down esters. So in brewing technology it is customary to separate the green beer from the yeast ASAP - both the sediment and the head, where it is more likely to autolyse first.
Speaking of BE-256 brochure, is it not unreasonable to assume the English translation is to blame. In other languages they use the term "harvest", while in Russian it says (Google translated): "To preserve the aromatic profile at the end of fermentation, we recommend interrupt contact with yeast as soon as possible immediately after fermentation."

 

[frankvw]

Dying (autolysed) yeast break down esters.

A highly intriguing statement, and one reason why I enjoy these fora so much! However, I can't find anything about it and I sure hadn't heard anything about it previously. Could you cite a source for this (IMO very important) tidbit? I can see autolysis flavours masking estery flavours, but autolysis leading to ester breakdown? How is this supposed to work?

Input! Need input! (With apologies to Johnny 5)

 

[mediant]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...mary-asap-to-retain-them.669129/#post-8656000This is the study, although it mainly studies bottle conditioned beer - https://limo.libis.be/primo-explore...rias&tab=default_tab&lang=en_US&fromSitemap=1

Another mention is here -
In S. cerevisiae, for example, it has been shown that the balance between ester-synthesizing enzymes and esterases, such as Iah1p (also known as Est2p), is important for the net rate of ester accumulation (27-30). Residual esterase activity in finalized beer may even be responsible for the decrease in ester concentration that often occurs during storage. It has been suggested that ester hydrolysis occurs mainly as a consequence of yeast autolysis followed by the liberation of certain esterases in the medium.

 

[Tyler B]

Well... I decided to pop open the fermenter (after two days) because fermentation seemed to be slowing in terms of airlock activity. When I added the sugar, skimming/cropping the yeast wasn't an option because the krausen had already dropped!

Maybe I'll try to crop tomorrow if the activity has picked back up during the second ferment. I have a feeling this will be done in another three days so I might be able to keg this one crazy fast. Anxious to see how it turns out.

The krausen on the K-97 kolsch, which I just recently brewed, still hadn't dropped after two weeks. I just kegged the beer from underneath the krausen on that one.

 

[RPh_Guy]

RPh, can I ask why? Is that common knowledge or based on your experience? Genuinely curious and trying to learn more here. Thanks!

Higher gravity wort results in more flavor compounds.

Higher percentage of glucose results in more flavor compounds.

Yeast tend to produce the most flavor compounds early in fermentation.

 

[Tyler B]

Alright... I typed up my last post immediately after adding the sugar and two things happened since then.

First, fermentation has already picked back up! It's been thirty minutes. I swear the yeast was starting nearly this quick when I pitched it a couple days ago.

Second, the Fermentis rep replied to my email:
"Thank you for contacting us and to have chosen our SafAle BE-256,

To answer to your question you asked through our website, yeast should be collected just after fermentation, around 6 days in the case of SafAle BE-256. It’ll insure a maximum viability. Collecting yeast after maturation will increase stress and yeast mortality.
To increase the final gravity of your beer, we don’t recommend to ad sugars during fermentation, in its natural form it could be complicated for the yeast to use it. The best is to anticipate by adding sugars, like candy sugars for example, during the mashing step. High temperature will simplify sugars structure and make them easier to assimilate for the yeast during fermentation. You can build your recipe with software like Beersmith or Brewer’s friend, it will help you to calculate the amount of sugar and malt you need to reach the final gravity wanted.

I hope it helps you,

Enjoy your brewing session and have a good day"

Interesting... Thoughts?

 

[RPh_Guy]

The best is to anticipate by adding sugars, like candy sugars for example, during the mashing step.

"Sugars" can mean a lot of different things. Simple sugars like sucrose or Belgian syrups do not need to be added during the mash.

 

[ncbrewer]

To answer to your question you asked through our website, yeast should be collected just after fermentation, around 6 days in the case of SafAle BE-256. It’ll insure a maximum viability. Collecting yeast after maturation will increase stress and yeast mortality.

I think they're saying you should harvest yeast just after fermentation if you will be re-using it. I don't think they mean leaving the yeast will affect the current batch.

 

[frankvw]

This is the study, although it mainly studies bottle conditioned beer [snip]
Another mention is here [snip ]

Highly interesting reading. Thank you!!

So that's esters being reduced during a lengthy conditioning phase, possibly (although, as I understand it, this is still somewhat tentative) as a function of yeast autolysis. Is there a similar effect that applies to volatile phenols? I have noticed a marked reduction in volatile phenols during lengthy conditioning in the fermenter (under airlock) although that could simply have been due to the volatile nature of said phenols.

Looking forward to your opinion here!

// F

 

[mediant]

Is there a similar effect that applies to volatile phenols? I have noticed a marked reduction in volatile phenols during lengthy conditioning in the fermenter (under airlock) although that could simply have been due to the volatile nature of said phenols.

Phenols adsorb to yeast cells, this could be the cause.

 

[Tyler B]

My "BGSA" finished much dryer than expected (I was expecting dry) and it was definitely a banana bomb initially. It's still very fruity, but the banana character is fading.

As others have said, this is a strange, fast finishing, very highly attenuating, banana-ester producing yeast. Not sure I'll be using it again any time soon but it could be perfect if this is what you want from your yeast.

 

[thehaze]

I'll be brewing a Belgian Bitter/Pale Ale with this yeast, next week ( I love De Ranke's XX/XXX Bitters and someone mentioned it might be something De Ranke uses ). I'll go 50% Dingemans Pilsner + 50% Weyermann Premium Pilsner + high sulfate water + 100% German grown Chinook ( 10.5% AA ) hops ( Hallertau region - crop 2019 ) + around 5% ABV and 60 IBUs. A big flameout and whirlpool addition and I'll be fermenting at around 74-75F. Probably gonna bottle after 9-11 days and will shoot for aprox. 2.7 vol. CO2. I'll post pictures with the finished beer in the glass and some notes on it.

 

[sylvr000]

I've used BE-256 a few times and plan on using it again. It's not very belgiany and it's not very expressive either. But I do like its attenuation, its alcohol tolerance and flocculation/sedimentation. It ferments fast and aggressive and does not stall. It can easily go down to 1.006-1.005 and for me, that's something I want in light, crisp pale beers. I never cropped it and although I read Fermentis' recommendations beforehand, I never did it. Then again, a lot of my beers don't get to sit in the fermenter more than 9-12 days, and 12 days happens whenever I don't have the time to package the beer due to responsabilities: job, family, etc. At 11 days, I've never experienced anything " off " with the beers fermented with this yeast. I suppose it leaves things to interpretation: if I were to crop BE-256, I would probably do it 7 days after it started fermenting. It would be finished by then. I am also curious why would this yeast need cropping ...

I have to use this yeast to brew a beer for my club, was thinking about trying to make something to the tune of a chocolate banana quad. Would want to maximize the banana. Suggestions from your experience?

 

[thehaze]

I have to use this yeast to brew a beer for my club, was thinking about trying to make something to the tune of a chocolate banana quad. Would want to maximize the banana. Suggestions from your experience?

Seeing that it does not have a huge estery profile ( and it's POF- ) and Fermentis recommends cropping it - I would probably mash a little higher, drive the OG upwards 1.085-1.095 and ferment at 68F/20C in the first 2-3 days ( the yeast does ferment fast ) and then rise to 72-75F for the rest of fermentation. Top cropping should be tried out, as Fermentis recommends this in order to maintain its aromatic profile. So I assume they've tested and they know, that this yeast loses its aroma if not cropped, or at least a great deal of it. Underpitching it ( 10-20% ) would probably also force it to create more esters.

I've read some have experienced a lot of banana with this yeast, which is not something I can relate to. It's fruity and pleasent, with good mouthfeel, despite it's high attenuation. Never really got banana, like with a hefeweizen yeast.

 

[dmtaylor]

I have definitely gotten banana and bubblegum from this yeast. But no clove. It's not a hef exactly as it also has a certain pineapple thing going on. Interesting yeast worth trying some more. And a high attenuator. I'll probably mash hot around 156-157 F next time to try to keep a little more body and keep the ABV down to non-astronomical levels.

 

[thehaze]

The clove is missing as it is POF- : https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Beer-yeast-chart.pdf - this is from 2019, but should still apply.

 

[frankvw]

I have to use this yeast to brew a beer for my club, was thinking about trying to make something to the tune of a chocolate banana quad. Would want to maximize the banana. Suggestions from your experience?

Pitch moderately and ferment not too cold and you'll have more banana than you know what to do with. Depending on gravity, beware of "hot" alcohols, though, so don't overdo it on the temperature. But yeah, it should work well with chocolate(ish) flavours.

 

[frankvw]

The clove is missing as it is POF- : https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Beer-yeast-chart.pdf - this is from 2019, but should still apply.

It does still apply. It's POF- and it always will be. Yes, it' s highly attenuating, high in isoamyl aetate esters and with a fairly high alcohol tolerance. But that's it. Trust Fermentis to position a POF- yeast as an abbey strain! But then, they used to market S-33 (i.e. basic EDME) as a Belgian yeast, too. Go figure.

Update: Not all POF+ yeasts produce clove flavours. While 4-Vinyl Guaiacol (clove) is the most common product of POF+ yeasts, typical Belgian strains also produce a wide range of other desirable spicy phenols ranging from cinnamon to pepper.

 

[brewman !]

and therefore lacks the typical spicy phenols that are so characteristic (not to say vital) for the style.

Are you mixing up Belgium Abbey Ale yeasts (designed for high gravity) with Belgium Saison yeasts ? Saisons have the spicy character. High gravity Abbey Ales are supposed to have the stone fruit character.

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see why one would want to use an Abbey Ale yeast in a regular gravity beer, especially if it is not a dark beer.

I'm thinking of using Safale BE256 in a high gravity Belgium fermentation. Can anyone recommend a better dry high gravity Belgium yeast ?

 

[brewman !]

"I saved one bottle for nearly two years and that was amazing. Not boozy at all and heavy dark fruit and caramel." <--- This is what I am looking for. You can't expect a high gravity Belgium to reach peak flavor in a few months.

"I'm getting a lot of dark fruit and typical belgian dark strong flavors" <-- perfect.

 

[dmtaylor]

"I saved one bottle for nearly two years and that was amazing. Not boozy at all and heavy dark fruit and caramel." <--- This is what I am looking for. You can't expect a high gravity Belgium to reach peak flavor in a few months.

"I'm getting a lot of dark fruit and typical belgian dark strong flavors" <-- perfect.

If that's what you want, then maybe skip Fermentis options, and try instead Lallemand Abbaye or Mangrove Jack M29. Those should give you full Belgian flavors including raisin, banana, and a bit of spice, with attenuation topping out closer to 85% so it's NOT so much like a saison or super-diastaticus.

 

[frankvw]

Are you mixing up Belgium Abbey Ale yeasts (designed for high gravity) with Belgium Saison yeasts ? Saisons have the spicy character. High gravity Abbey Ales are supposed to have the stone fruit character.

Saisons have a spicy character, yes, but they are not the only style characterized by the typical Belgian spicy phenols. Check the BJCP style guide, categories 24-26. All beers listed there include spicy phenols in the aroma description. Yes, balanced with tons of fruity esters, but they are an essential element of the style. BE-256 lacks that, though. It has some of the Belgian characteristics (high ester levels, high alcohol tolerance) but is is severely handicapped as a yeast for Belgian styles due to the fact that it's POF-. While one can brew great beers with it that are in some aspects (body, ester profile, alcohol level, attenuation) reminiscent of Belgian ales, that's about it.

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see why one would want to use an Abbey Ale yeast in a regular gravity beer, especially if it is not a dark beer.

Some simply like the flavor profile, I suppose.

I'm thinking of using Safale BE256 in a high gravity Belgium fermentation. Can anyone recommend a better dry high gravity Belgium yeast ?

Lallemand Abbaye.

// FvW

 

[BrewSavage]

I've used this yeast three times:
An oaky breakfast stout;
An abbey style dubbel;
An abbey style tripel,

I was happy with the flavors of all three. The stout and the tripel became quite foamy over time, the dubbel remains dead flat 10 months in the bottle.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Check the BJCP style guide, categories 24-26. All beers listed there include spicy phenols in the aroma description. Yes, balanced with tons of fruity esters, but they are an essential element of the style. BE-256 lacks that, though. It has some of the Belgian characteristics (high ester levels, high alcohol tolerance) but is is severely handicapped as a yeast for Belgian styles due to the fact that it's POF-. While one can brew great beers with it that are in some aspects (body, ester profile, alcohol level, attenuation) reminiscent of Belgian ales, that's about it.

FWIW, it seems that genetically BE-256 falls right in the middle of the main English group of brewery strains, which immediately makes one think of WLP540 Abbey IV Ale.

WLP540 is STA1- but has an attenuation of 74% - 82%, medium flocculation but high alcohol tolerance and recommended temperature of 66°-72°F /19°-22°C.