BCS460 electric build from square one

[shroomzofdoom]

As the title says I am going to be starting a BCS build. For the impatient, this is probably going to take a while. I’ll post on occasion as I build/buy things or make improvements but I expect this project to take up to a year. My schedule has me finishing this summer but I am slated to have a few surgeries this year which could slow me down.

I’ve yet to decide on RIMS or HERMS….I know, I know…but I’ve been fully committed to doing each at one point or another. They both appeal to me—I don’t want to turn this into a RIMS vs. HERMS thread but the truth is I could be swayed either way. I was literally set to pop on the Brewer’s Hardware RIMS until this weekend. Watching my club’s low tech use of HERMS to hold mash temp on a 90-100gal mash convinced me that this is a very basic process.

I’ll probably have to decide in a few weeks. If I go RIMS, I am using the Brewer’s Hardware product; if HERMS it would likely be one that is not hard plumbed, over side if the keg and removable.

So…what’s the general project goals?
-Be able to handle 5-10 gallon batches
-Three 15.5 gallon Sanke vessels--2 untouched, one in use today
-Be able to fly sparge
-All weldless
-Keggles have to be removed from the setup for storage. (semi-permanent)
-Bottom drains on the MLT and BK. The HLT already has a diptube. I made a great 2x2000w/110v boil kettle a few months ago to get off the stovetop.

Will probably convert this to 220w and plug the other hole
-I turned my old immersion chiller into a CFC and will use that to chill until I have the funds for a plate chiller.

My house is fed by a 100amp main panel in the basement with a 60amp subpanel upstairs
Main Panel (basement)


Sub panel (upstairs)


Not sure why they had two panels (house is small) but there are lots of spaces in the main panel. There’s not a 220 circuit in the house. I hope I am not heading to an overload situation but my plan is to drop a 50W spa panel right off the main panel and manually limit my amperage draw elsewhere in the house. I think it should fairly easy not to run high amperage while brewing. Being an early riser, I usually start brewing before daylight and finish by Noon. We plan on upgrading to 200 amp service with central air, but not for a while.

The panel is about 30 feet away from my brewing area. On brew day, pretty sure I will have to run an RV cord to the control panel. Basement is completely finished—no permanent installation will permit a finished setup without a high degree of wall cutting or conduit.

I grabbed this cart at Costco for around $129, I can use this for a two vessels or deploy it elsewhere.

I may hang the HLT on the wall with removable brackets. Still not 100% sure. Space is at a premium, so I would like the ability to remove all the keggles to my furnace room for storage when we have parties. Using the cart probably meets chopping a few inches off the legs and punching two 1” holes through the surface for the bottom drains. If done right, there is no reason these holes can’t be covered/capped and the table mostly repurposed for use during parties.


The game plan:

Move router, fish 50 ft of RJ45-DONE

Replace analog probes with sensors and run first brew with BCS monitoring/logging via iPhone-DONE

Cut kegs and plumb bottom drains/valves (ordered parts) (late Feb)
Rig up Spa Panel and build a 220v outlet into it. (late Feb)
Rough in design on cart and/or bracket system for HLT (if 2 tier) (March)
Commit to RIMS or HERMS (March)
Build control panel (April/May)
Program BCS (JMay/June)
Sit on fat ass and waste time (July)
Inaugural brew (August/September)

I am open to suggestions, input, and loud yelling--so please feel free to suggest anything!!!

 

[A4J]

*subscribed*

I think I'm leaning towards BCS for my planned e-brewery.

I like your timeline. It's probably going to mirror my own timeline, except I'm going to sitting on my ass and wasting time much sooner than you are and much longer.

 

[Bobby_M]

One reason why I'm leaning towards HERMS is that it's contained within a vessel and doesn't require an extra device that would need to be cleaned and taken apart for inspection once in a while. In order to use the HLT as a HERMs tank, the sparge water will have to be in there and up to temp pretty quickly. If you think about a 10 gallon batch with 25 pounds of grain, your strike volume is 9 gallons and sparge is 11 (assuming a batch sparge).

I can think of two ways to go about this.

1. Heat 14 gallons in the HLT, move 9 to the MLT, then top off the HLT back up to 11. The problem here is that the 11 gallons now in the HLT is down to near 100F if you use cold tap water. You'd have to wait for the recovery before starting the recirculation. If you topped off with hot tap water, you'd be closer to 145F and the ramp up to 155 or so would be faster.

2. Heat 11 gallons to sparge temps in the HLT and heat the 9 gallons of strike in the BK. Once you dough in, you can immediate start the HERMS loop.

How do other folks handle it? I never thought much about it because I'm not there yet.

 

[PLOVE]

Option #2 makes the most sense to me. I'm building a one-tier two pump all-electric HERMS system with heating elements in the HLT/HERMS and BK. I intentionally went with 220V 50AMP GFI as my input to my controller so I can simultaneously heat water in my BK and HLT. My plan is to heat BK to strike temp (175, or lower if I'm doing a protein rest), and HLT to ~ 152 mash temp. I'll pump strike from the BK for the mash infusion, and then use HLT/HERMS to regulate mash temp using recirculation.

Love to hear other opinions on this, but this is my conceptual plan. . .
P

 

[mmonacel]

I don't know either, but I would think #2 since that way you just need to get it close and can then immediately rely on the HERMS loop to get you to where you need to be.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

On my system, I fill my MLT with the strike water, fill the HLT with my sparge water, start the HERMS and heat the whole thing to strike temp (corrected for full water volume so it equals out right). If I am doing back to back batches, I use my propane burner and extra kettle to heat up water for the next batch so I do not need to wait for everything to heat up.

Does that make sense?

 

[Bsquared]

Looks like that cart you might have room to put your HLT under you mash? Then you would need two pumps.

This weekend was my first brew with my BCS system, I had a 23# grain bill, and in dough in using 1.25qt/lb for a total of 7.2 gallons. I started by filling the HLT with 14 gallons heating to strike temp using a 5500w 240VAC elemint (166 for a strike temp of 151), transfered over 7.2gallons in to mash then filled the HLT back up to 14 gallons, which was around 115º then set the HLT to 160. It took about 10-15min to get above 151, so I started recalculating then through the HEX. After 40 min I cranked the HLT up to 175, and recalculated till my mash tem was 168 fro a mash out step. Then fly sparged 13.5 gallons into my kettle. I was really impressed the recovery was so short, when I first doughed in I thought, "Oh $hit! now I have to re heat the water in the HLT...how long is that going to take."

This was my first brew so i did it all in manual mode, but the 5500 watt element has a lot of power and recovered really quickly. I think though with a larger grain bill I might pre heat some water and transfer it to my kettle or heat my strike water in the kettle after I heat the water in the HLT.My system is set up to run on a 30A line, so I can only run one 5500watt element at once.

 

[bruin_ale]

I can think of two ways to go about this.

1. Heat 14 gallons in the HLT, move 9 to the MLT, then top off the HLT back up to 11. The problem here is that the 11 gallons now in the HLT is down to near 100F if you use cold tap water. You'd have to wait for the recovery before starting the recirculation. If you topped off with hot tap water, you'd be closer to 145F and the ramp up to 155 or so would be faster.

2. Heat 11 gallons to sparge temps in the HLT and heat the 9 gallons of strike in the BK. Once you dough in, you can immediate start the HERMS loop.

How do other folks handle it? I never thought much about it because I'm not there yet.

I use option 1. My MLT is an insulated cooler, so I don't lose much heat to begin with. I mash-in, top up my HLT so that I have enough to complete my sparge + a little extra to stay above the bottom of my sight glass, then start heating up to mash temps. Doesn't take that long to get there and really the mash needs to equalize for the first 10-15 minutes anyways. Course I live in CA, so my tap water in the dead of winter is still only 45-50 at worst.

 

[Peter_h]

One reason why I'm leaning towards HERMS is that it's contained within a vessel and doesn't require an extra device that would need to be cleaned and taken apart for inspection once in a while. In order to use the HLT as a HERMs tank, the sparge water will have to be in there and up to temp pretty quickly. If you think about a 10 gallon batch with 25 pounds of grain, your strike volume is 9 gallons and sparge is 11 (assuming a batch sparge).

I can think of two ways to go about this.

1. Heat 14 gallons in the HLT, move 9 to the MLT, then top off the HLT back up to 11. The problem here is that the 11 gallons now in the HLT is down to near 100F if you use cold tap water. You'd have to wait for the recovery before starting the recirculation. If you topped off with hot tap water, you'd be closer to 145F and the ramp up to 155 or so would be faster.

2. Heat 11 gallons to sparge temps in the HLT and heat the 9 gallons of strike in the BK. Once you dough in, you can immediate start the HERMS loop.

How do other folks handle it? I never thought much about it because I'm not there yet.

I do option 2. I fill the HLT full enough to cover the coils of the herms and bring that to about 5 degrees over mash temp. This puts me in the range to easily adjust temp and accounts for the temp loss through the wall of the coil. Sparge water is brought to temp in the brew kettle. Then transfer water from BK to MLT and you are ready to go.

I tried doing option 1 and it's way more work. After you transfer from HLT to MLT, you need to top off the HLT to cover the coils, so you have to transfer water from BK, to HLT or top off the water from water hose/sink and bring to temp quickly. Two transfers vs. 1 with option 2.

 

[bruin_ale]

I tried doing option 1 and it's way more work. After you transfer from HLT to MLT, you need to top off the HLT to cover the coils, so you have to transfer water from BK, to HLT or top off the water from water hose/sink and bring to temp quickly. Two transfers vs. 1 with option 2.

How is that more transfers? Either way you have to transfer from BK to HLT after strike. I do option 1, I strike, turn on the hose to top up and then turn the hose off. Definitely not more work than option 2. I can get started brewing sooner with option 1, because I can't heat two vessels at a time.

 

[Peter_h]

How is that more transfers? Either way you have to transfer from BK to HLT after strike. I do option 1, I strike, turn on the hose to top up and then turn the hose off. Definitely not more work than option 2. I can get started brewing sooner with option 1, because I can't heat two vessels at a time.

The difference between us is that I can heat both vessels at the same time. If i could only heat one at a time that would change things. Since I can, that means, no, I don't have to transfer from BK to HLT after sparge.

HLT gets filled to cover the coils, and brought to just above mash temp.

BK, filled about 2 gallons above strike volume.

Heat both at the same time and Bring both to temp.

Transfer strike water from BK to MLT and you are done, 1 water transfer.


If you do it the other way, after you transfer from HLT to MLT, you will be low on water in the HLT and will need to add water to cover the herms coils requiring a second water transfer. Or do it your way where you have to turn on the hose to fill up the remainder but as I mentioned in my previous post, you will then have to bring that up to correct temp. I'm ready to go after the strike water transfer.

 

[Holter]

On my system, I fill my MLT with the strike water, fill the HLT with my sparge water, start the HERMS and heat the whole thing to strike temp (corrected for full water volume so it equals out right). If I am doing back to back batches, I use my propane burner and extra kettle to heat up water for the next batch so I do not need to wait for everything to heat up.

Does that make sense?

This to me is the best method. Are you heating more water at the start (meaning it will take longer)? Yes, but when it's up to temperature, everything is up to temp and you can dough in.

 

[Peter_h]

This to me is the best method. Are you heating more water at the start (meaning it will take longer)? Yes, but when it's up to temperature, everything is up to temp and you can dough in.

That works too but anytime I've added grains to the MLT that was full of the strike water volume like that, I've gotten dough balls.

Slowly adding the grains and water at roughly the same rate has worked best for me to not get dough balls.

 

[Holter]

That works too but anytime I've added grains to the MLT that was full of the strike water volume like that, I've gotten dough balls.

Slowly adding the grains and water at roughly the same rate has worked best for me to not get dough balls.

That's how I used to do it as well, either way works well. This year i changed around my process to fill up the Mash Tun completely with the heated up water. I then close the mash tun cooler for 3-5 minutes and then check the temperature. If it is still at my desired strike temp then i add all of the grains, slowly wile stirring. I have found this change helped me hit my desired mash temp more consistently.

If you find yourself in a situation like what bobby described above and you want to have your full water volume for both strike water and the spare water (for Herms recirc) at temp but the combined volume is greater than what your HLT can hold, filling your mash tun with water and running it through the Herms coil while the HLT heats up is in my opinion the best solution. It also keeps your mash water separate from your sparge water should you prefer that. Obviously this is for HERMS systems.

 

[thelorax121]

On my system, I fill my MLT with the strike water, fill the HLT with my sparge water, start the HERMS and heat the whole thing to strike temp (corrected for full water volume so it equals out right). If I am doing back to back batches, I use my propane burner and extra kettle to heat up water for the next batch so I do not need to wait for everything to heat up.

Does that make sense?

Ditto, this is what I do as well and it works fine. I just turn the system on an hour or so before I am ready to mash in a come back to two tanks at the proper temperature. I cut the recirc pump for a minute while I dough in, and it only takes the system 5 mins or so to increase the HLT temp to my mash temperature. I still don't like the slight variation however, especially at the beginning of the mash when temperature differences are more critical, so I will be switching over to an external HEX for my next build in order to have more control/flexibility.

 

[shroomzofdoom]

First of all, many thanks to everyone that's stopped by and for the great discussion. Please keep going, this is all useful info for me.

Heat 11 gallons to sparge temps in the HLT and heat the 9 gallons of strike in the BK. Once you dough in, you can immediate start the HERMS loop.

I had always guessed that was how this would be done; good to see people solve the problem in different ways.

but the combined volume is greater than what your HLT can hold, filling your mash tun with water and running it through the Herms coil while the HLT heats up is in my opinion the best solution.

Good point, I hadn't even thought of this. I know there are lots of variables like water volume, etc--but how much time would you say this adds to a brewday?

Looks like that cart you might have room to put your HLT under you mash? Then you would need two pumps.

Yep, I can fit the HLT underneath for compactness of the overall design---this is one direction I was thinking of going. Not a big fan of pumps at all. I have two and I hate them. The whole self priming thing is a PITA and one of the reasons why I considering HERMS over RIMS--a momentary lapse with RIMS and stuck sparge and you're probably starting a new mash and replacing an element (the reason why I will go with the BH RIMS if I go that way)

The difference between us is that I can heat both vessels at the same time. If i could only heat one at a time that would change things. Since I can, that means, no, I don't have to transfer from BK to HLT after sparge.

Are you running 4500w or 5500w elements? I had assumed that 2x5500w on a 50amp circuit would trip? It's close but depends on input voltage. I may wire in an analog ammeter for kicks...

That works too but anytime I've added grains to the MLT that was full of the strike water volume like that, I've gotten dough balls.

When adding my grain to the cooler now, I use a squirrel mixer on my drill and never get dough balls when I add the grain slowly. Do you just sort of dump it in?

I use option 1

Bruin, I lived in Campbell from 2004-2006..over on Morrene Dr and then on Tilbury. Nice town, I miss that weather....

Back on topic:
I racked my brain with ways to make this two vessels (for space reasons) and then came to the conclusion that this is why most rigs have three. Very few two vessel electric designs out here that don’t involve transfers. If anyone knows of more than these, lemme know:

I thought I could use a removable HEX coil like Walker has, but then realized that he batch sparges and I really want to fly sparge.

I was really digging the two vessel RIMS that Sizz came up with as well, using the RIMS as an inline tankless heater--but I suppose this means that treating your sparge water is difficult.

So, there are tradeoffs in either case, I see a HERMS, read a post and am like 'I need that'...I read some more about RIMS and am like 'I need that'...both? Too bad there is no 'best of both worlds' solution.

 

[Bsquared]

Do you have Mach pumps? I use to have a hell of a time with mine until I realized that the Out should be pointing up. I always had them so the pump in and out where orientated horizontal, now I have them vertical with the out pointing up and they work like champs.

 

[Bobby_M]

Ok, so I just wanted to include B_K's method as option 3.

1. Heat strike and partial sparge in HLT, top off HLT after dough in and wait for recovery prior to running HERMs. (BK not involved until boil).

Interventions: 1. transfer, topoff, dough in 2. Find HLT temp met, start HERMs.

2. Heat strike in BK while heating Sparge in HLT. (HLT and BK both heating at same time)

Interventions: 1. transfer strike, dough in, start HERMS

3. Heat strike in HLT, move strike to MLT, top off HLT and run HERMS to strike temp prior to dough in. (BK not involved until boil).

Interventions: 1. Start HERMs. 2. Find temps met, dough in.

I think the only downside to option 3 is that you're running the pump the whole time you're heating 20 gallons to ~160F. I suppose you can calculate a temp for an initial heating of the full HLT such that a top off of another 6 gallons of tap would bring the full system (20gals) down to your set temp.

A lot of this decision would depend on where you're putting your 50a of available juice. If I went option 1 or 3, I'd put two 5500w elements into the HLT and one in the BK with a switch for HLT=11kW or HLT=5500w + BK=5500w. If I've got 50a to play with, I always want it maximized to cut time off brewday.

It's a lot to think about but once you settle into a routine, it's cake.

I used to think that a HERMS was a waste of energy because it had to see the HLT full of hot water the whole mash but with a little insulation, it doesn't take much energy to hold temp for a mere hour. It also takes away that moment of occasional panic when you realized you forgot to start heating your sparge water in time.

 

[shroomzofdoom]

Do you have Mach pumps? I use to have a hell of a time with mine until I realized that the Out should be pointing up. I always had them so the pump in and out where orientated horizontal, now I have them vertical with the out pointing up and they work like champs.

I have Chuggers--so they are 99.9% the same. Currently, they are in a toolbox with outlets parallel to ground=NOT in the right direction. When I mount them permanently they will be mounted properly--outlet pointing up.

I've realized it also helps to have the pumps well below all vessels so that gravity can prime the pumps when the kettle valve is opened--for the most part this can push air bubbles past the impeller. Stuck sparges are a real pain with diptubes especially in the last 3 gallons

I'll bet I don't hate pumps as much when they are mounted properly and fitted to bottom drain keggles!

 

[bruin_ale]

3. Heat strike in HLT, move strike to MLT, top off HLT and run HERMS to strike temp prior to dough in. (BK not involved until boil).

I think the only downside to option 3 is that you're running the pump the whole time you're heating 20 gallons to ~160F.

Paraphrased your post to the parts I wanted to comment on.

If you heat the whole thing to strike temp, I assume you need to add some additional cold water after dough-in to get to the desired recirc temp of your mash? How much higher is strike temp than dough-in when your MLT isn't going to absorb any of the heat since it's already at temp? 5 degrees maybe? (obviously depends on the size and temp of the grist, but just curious)

Running the pump while you heat is really not that big of a downside, I usually run the pump while I heat the HLT just to recirculate the HLT and make sure it's uniform temp from top to bottom. I also stir at the same time, but you really can't mix the HLT enough IMO, need to make sure the temp is spot on. The heat from the elements tends to go straight up, so draining out the bottom and putting it back into the top of the HLT is really effective.

 

[Bsquared]

I've realized it also helps to have the pumps well below all vessels so that gravity can prime the pumps when the kettle valve is opened--for the most part this can push air bubbles past the impeller. Stuck sparges are a real pain with diptubes especially in the last 3 gallons

Three things that has helped me to stop having this problem are for all my batches I toss in 1lb of rice hulls on top of the false bottom before adding my grains. I dough in from the bottom, or pump strike water in through the mash outlet. Finally when I start the pump for re-circulation I only open the valve a 1/4 to 1/2 open to prevent the grain bed from collapsing and sticking. Come to think of it, I never open my mash valve fully after I dough in.

 

[Holter]

Good point, I hadn't even thought of this. I know there are lots of variables like water volume, etc--but how much time would you say this adds to a brewday?
.

It shouldn't add any time. Let's say your mash needed 6 gallons of strike water and your sparge required 8 gallons. Your total would be 14 gallons. With this system you would just put 6 gallons in the mash tun and 8 gallons in the HLT. Start heating up and then you are good to go - either way you are going to heat up your 14 gallons. With a Herms system you would have your HLT at temp anyway because you are recirculating. In fact, if anything it will save you time.

 

[mateomtb]

Ok, so I just wanted to include B_K's method as option 3.
..................
A lot of this decision would depend on where you're putting your 50a of available juice. If I went option 1 or 3, I'd put two 5500w elements into the HLT and one in the BK with a switch for HLT=11kW or HLT=5500w + BK=5500w. If I've got 50a to play with, I always want it maximized to cut time off brewday.

This is how I've been looking at it too, busy life = I'll buy time anywhere I can. I am putting 2 elements in the HLT and the BK. 1 in each vessel I plan for holding temps/boil, the other 2 used as a quick heat boost to cut down wait times. I do also have the option of running all 4 at the same time for even more time savings going back to back which I think would be the common use case. At least that's my plan.

 

[blakeseven]

I like the idea of 11Kw in both the boil kettle & HL. My question is will a 60 amp service allow me to have 4- 5.5 Kw elements and 2 pumps working at the same time? Second, how would you wire this ? SSR on one leg of each?

Thanks

 

[Bobby_M]

Oh, no way. 11Kw is the limit for a 50a run with very little to spare for pumps.

 

[mateomtb]

I like the idea of 11Kw in both the boil kettle & HL. My question is will a 60 amp service allow me to have 4- 5.5 Kw elements and 2 pumps working at the same time? Second, how would you wire this ? SSR on one leg of each?

Thanks

Yeah, what bobby_m said. I should have pointed out I have 100amps of service available at my control panel. I may never run 4 at a time though, more likely 3 and the more I think about it mostly 2.

To me a flexible setup would be to have 2 in each vessel for a total of 4. Then have selector switches wired like this.

hlt element 1 <- switch 1 -> boil element 1
hlt element 2 <- switch 2 -> boil element 2

So then you could choose to mix and match the use of your 2 elements as you please.

I'm pretty sure PJ has a diagram out there similar to this, but I think it's drawn like this. I think I saved it somewhere I'll look for it when I have time.

hlt 2 elements on <- switch -> boil 2 elements on

 

[blakeseven]

Would love to see PJ's diagram. That makes for a lot of flexibility. Will I be able to have 3 elements and 2 pumps running on a 60 amp service?

 

[mateomtb]

Would love to see PJ's diagram. That makes for a lot of flexibility. Will I be able to have 3 elements and 2 pumps running on a 60 amp service?

No that won't work. Keep poking around here and you'll start figuring out what you need to know, like GFCI etc. Here are some basic numbers. Start adding stuff up and you see where you run out of capacity.

5500 w element = 22.9 amp x 3 = More than 60
You get the idea.

PJ's drawing isn't with a BCS but this is the diagram I remember seeing. Lots of good info in that thread as he evolved the drawing.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/controller-question-254935/index8.html

 

[shroomzofdoom]

My control panel is going to be pretty similar to this one (Credit to P-J of course) If anyone has a P-J diagram with two elements for the HLT and BK, lemme know. I like the flexibility aspect of it, but something tells me that ANYTHING is going to be a step up from where I am at today. I brewed yesterday and kinda hated it--I have to build the rig for my sanity...too many wires on brewday; too much transferring of fluids and stepping over stuff. Oh, and did I mention how much I hate diptubes as well? Bottom drain-FTW.

This is a simple, clean photo of recirc during heating up the strike--but it sure looked like a mess about 20 mins later.


For anyone curious what a heat curve looks like for 2x2000w elements (input voltage is usually around 118). This is for 6 gallons from about 50-172, sampling 30 sec intervals. It took 33 mins. The blip at the front of the curve is before I hooked up the pump to recirc.

Temporary control panel; one ziploc, one rubber band--all business. I am only using the BCS for monitoring and logging right now, just started to build my processes. No control at this point, but having fun learning with it.


Oh and I think I found why I hated my pumps, one works flawlessly--one always broke siphon and had noisy operation. Inspected the impeller and found it to have a QC issue, contacted manufacturer for RMA. These are REALLY sensitive; it's only off 1mm and the pump is virtually unusable.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9zpZS-hUMs"][/ame]

 

[prrriiide]

I used to think that a HERMS was a waste of energy because it had to see the HLT full of hot water the whole mash but with a little insulation, it doesn't take much energy to hold temp for a mere hour. It also takes away that moment of occasional panic when you realized you forgot to start heating your sparge water in time.

Bobby, I saw a rig this past weekend that used an insulated institutional-sized veggie can as the heat source for the HERMS. Basically, he had a 2200w 120v heating element through the bottom of the can, which had a copper coil and less than a gallon of water in it. On the top of the can were the tube fittings and the line from the PID controller, and a PC fan with a long bolt attached to it. The bolt had a wing nut on it to act as an agitator to keep the water moving around in the can. It took really very little energy to hold his mash temp because he wasn't heating a whole lot of water with it, and he was brewing outside at low-40* temps. He just kept the mash recirculating through the coil in the the little can.

HLT and BK were direct-fired.