Bavarian Hefeweizen water profile

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njohnsoncs

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I'm starting from RO water and I'm using the Brun water calculator with the Munich (boiled) profile. How does this water profile look for an authentic Bavarian Hefeweizen?

Ca: 11
Mg: 0
Na: 8
SO4: 19
Cl: 9
HCO3: -101 (i.e., 0)

Estimated mash pH: 5.35

Total water additions:

mash: 2.08 gal
sparge: 2.52 gal
total batch: 3.00 gal

Grain bill:

2.8 lbs Weyermann Pale Wheat (1.5 L)
2.0 German Pilsner Malt (1.8 L)
 
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Interesting. I'm following the recommendation from Brun water using the Munich (boiled) profile which says 11. Should I be using a different profile?
 
I can not say about the profile but Ca in the 30-50 range promotes good yeast health and adds some mouthfeel/maltiness. Edit - I meant to type CaCl adds some mouthfeel/maltiness.
 
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I'm having a problem understanding the numbers with no unit attached to them. ( Ca:11 ); ( Na: 8 ) ; 11 what?? 8 what ?? I'm sure this is a stupid question, but I missed something somewhere along the line . Many Thanks,
Bob
 
The numbers represent ppm (parts per million).

How are you achieving a mash pH of 5.35 with no acidification? Or did you just not list it?
 
The numbers represent ppm (parts per million).

How are you achieving a mash pH of 5.35 with no acidification? Or did you just not list it?

This would be my question, too. Followed by... are you planning to do an acid rest?

If so, I wouldn't acidify the water at all. In fact, I wouldn't acidify the water even if not doing an acid rest. The mash pH for a hefe should be higher than you'd normally think was safe. I tend to like my mash pH up around 6.0 when brewing a Hefeweizen.

This article is chock full of great info for the style...

http://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/
 
Thanks for the reply, actually I just didn't list it, Those were just examples. I've picked up a R/O rig, and I'm trying to figure out this water additions thing.
Bob
 
This would be my question, too. Followed by... are you planning to do an acid rest?

If so, I wouldn't acidify the water at all. In fact, I wouldn't acidify the water even if not doing an acid rest. The mash pH for a hefe should be higher than you'd normally think was safe. I tend to like my mash pH up around 6.0 when brewing a Hefeweizen.

This article is chock full of great info for the style...

http://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

What do you think you are gaining by having the mash pH at 6 compared to a normal mash pH? The article states that clove flavor is enhanced during the acid rest by having a higher pH, but I do not see where having the pH high for the whole mash helps. I like hefes to have a bit of acid zing or tartness which would favor a lower overall pH once you finished the boil. Just wondering what you are tasting compared to a lower pH.
 
What do you think you are gaining by having the mash pH at 6 compared to a normal mash pH? The article states that clove flavor is enhanced during the acid rest by having a higher pH, but I do not see where having the pH high for the whole mash helps. I like hefes to have a bit of acid zing or tartness which would favor a lower overall pH once you finished the boil. Just wondering what you are tasting compared to a lower pH.

I don't think I'm gaining anything, but I know I'm getting a more authentic Hefeweizen. Contrary to popular belief, this style is one of the most difficult to nail. I can brew a clean pils lager with no off flavors all day any day, but I've had my share of struggles trying to brew a Hefeweizen that comes anywhere close to what you would find in Bavaria. Not until I found the linked article and began brewing based on the info contained therein did I finally start producing Hefeweizens that were somewhat close to the real deal (not there yet, but I feel like I'm getting pretty close).

Let's break it down...

Per the article...

"It has been observed that an acidified mash results in lower quality estery aromas [Her05]."

An acidified mash is going to result in a lower pH, right? I mean, that's the entire point of adding acid. If I'm after estery aromas (banana), then according to the article I do not want to acidify my mash. Using relatively soft water and the typical grain bill for a Hefe (50-70% wheat malt + pils + (maybe) some Munich and/or CaraMunich) is going to result in a mash pH of around 6.0). You can lower the mash pH naturally by doing an acid rest, which will decrease esters and increase clove, but there is absolutely no reason to acidify the mash beyond that and doing so will likely be a detriment. You understand the the point of the acid rest is to create acid to lower the pH of the mash naturally, right? The Germans are not adding acid to the mash, they're getting it naturally from the grain. If you add acid on top of what is generated during the acid rest, you are taking the mash pH too low to get the flavor profile that is desired from the style. If you want more banana than clove, you forego the acid rest and go with the high pH mash. If want more clove, you do a nice long acid rest to lower the pH to mask the esters. If you want a balance, you do a shorter acid rest, so you get both clove and banana. Under no circumstances should you be adding acid from any other source.

I like a little tartness to my Hefe's as well. Fortunately, we don't need an acidic mash to achieve that.

Again, per the article...

"Wheat beer yeasts generate a high pH drop during the fermentation resulting in a satisfactory beer pH even if the wort pH was unfavorable high."

Traditional Hefeweizen yeasts tend to yield a tart beer. Some more so than others. That tartness you may find desirable in the final product is produced by the yeast, not the pH of the mash.

The article aside, my own empirical observations confirm that a high mash pH makes for a more authentic Hefeweizen. I used to target a mash pH of 5.2-5.4 using the typical salts and acid malt or lactic acid and the result was no banana and no clove. I often utilized an acid rest and still could get no clove whatsoever. Talk about frustrating. It wasn't bad beer, but it wasn't a Hefeweizen. Not until I stopped treating my water (where I live, the municipal water is about as close to RO that you can get and still be considered "drinking" water) and started ignoring my mash pH, which according to the water calculators, should have been around 5.9-6.0, did I start getting results that were more in line with the style.
 
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@LLBeanJ, have you had any luck getting the malty flavors and orange-gold colors seen in commercial examples? In my experience there is no combination of wheat + pils that adds up to the color of a Paulaner. Even adding a little bit of specialty malt doesn't do it.
 
@LLBeanJ, have you had any luck getting the malty flavors and orange-gold colors seen in commercial examples? In my experience there is no combination of wheat + pils that adds up to the color of a Paulaner. Even adding a little bit of specialty malt doesn't do it.

Check out Weyermann Dark Wheat. That plus Pils will get you a darker, more orange Hefeweizen. In lieu of that, you can add a bit of CaraMunich. Subbing out some of the Pils for Munich and/or Melanoiden malt will yield a more colorful Hefe, too. As will a longer boil (say 90 or 120 minutes).
 
Cool. Thanks for your reply. I agree, this style has been elusive for me over the last 15 years. Always good beer but not like in Bavaria. I have not tried a higher than normal mash pH. I did try some LODO techniques and got the best hefe I ever brewed. If you have tried them, I would give it a shot. All I did was boil all of my brewing water to take the oxygen out, do a closed transfer and spund in the keg. The subdued flavors of beers past turned into bright, malty flavors as in Germany.

I would like to hear some other opinions as your quote of "It has been observed that an acidified mash results in lower quality estery aromas [Her05]." going to "Under no circumstances should you be adding acid from any other source" seems like a large leap. Not saying you are wrong. It just seems incomplete.

Since I now brew on an induction burner I do a long slow swoop mash with a dough in at 95f and a path all the way up to 172f. I pause at 111f, 121f, 140f, 152f and 161f but mainly am trying to slide through the entire range with the burner on its lowest setting. It happens to be easy as well :) I am brewing next week so I will increase the pH some and see how it turns out.
 
Maybe some more Ca. I think this style favors soft water so you are good there. More calcium will help with maltiness and smooth mouthfeel.

Really!? This is something I haven't heard before nor experienced.

Calcium is absolutely NOT needed in the water for beer brewing. The malt provides ALL the calcium that the yeast need for their metabolism. While calcium in the water does produce some benefits in terms of enzyme stability, oxalate reduction, and more rapid and complete yeast flocculation, calcium is not a requirement for brewing.

Regarding mashing pH, targeting a slightly higher mashing pH is fine for enhancing ferrulic acid in the wort. However, brewers need to take heed of the "slightly". The largest fault I've found in brewing and judging hefeweizens in my 20 years, is a dull and muddy flavor with darker than expected color. Those are sure signs of brewing at higher than desirable mash pH.

While weizen yeasts do tend to drive beer pH down better than some other yeasts, you don't want to handicap them too much with an overly high wort pH. One factor that may not have been mentioned is that many German brewers mash at a slightly higher pH and carry that pH through most of the boil. However, most then add saurergut to the wort at the end of boil to bring the pre-fermentation wort pH into a proper range. For the typical homebrewer, targeting a slightly lower mashing pH in the 5.2 to 5.4 range is an easier and surer way to produce a great hefeweizen.

If clove notes are missing in your hefe's, the most important components in achieving that are to: 1) perform a ferrulic acid rest, 2) limit the wheat content to about 50%. The biggest fault I find in judging commercial American-made craft hefe's is that they lack the clove note due to their single-step mashing. You will have a very difficult time creating clove without that low temp ferrulic rest. The other aspect that is worth explaining is that barley contains more of the clove precursors than wheat does. That's the reason behind limiting wheat percentage. In my opinion, executing these factors is more successful in producing a great weizen than performing the elevated mashing pH and end of boil pH reduction.
 
Hello Martin,

I should clarify as I corrected my other post - I was thinking ahead and how you would get more Ca by adding CaCl which in my experience increases the perception of maltiness and mouthfeel. As far as the calcium numbers, the hover note from your Brun' Water spreadsheet says the range for calcium should be 40-100 ppm. Does malt alone give these amounts of calcium?
 
The 40 ppm minimum presented in that note has the purpose of providing acceptable oxalate removal. However, you don't really have to remove oxalate, its just beneficial to do so.

Regarding the effect of increased maltiness and mouthfeel, that is a product of the chloride ion, not calcium. Don't forget that adding gypsum is also adding calcium, and the effect on maltiness and mouthfeel is somewhat opposite.
 
This is how I would make up 10 gallons of water from RO for a Bavarian Hefeweizen (and many other styles):

Ingredient List:
10 gallons RO
2.4 g. CaSO4
5.5 g. CaCl2.2H2O (or substitute 4.15 g. if using the anhydride form, or pure CaCl2)
1.4 g. NaHCO3


~Analysis:
54 ppm Ca++
0 ppm Mg++
10 ppm Na+
70 ppm Cl-
35 ppm SO4--
21 ppm Alkalinity (as CaCO3)

I realize that the alkalinity adds to the acidification that will be required to hit the mash pH target (and also to bring sparge water to pH 5.4-5.6), but some added carbonate alkalinity adds a bit of naturally sourced realism to what is otherwise merely fabricated water. It also brings along with it the 10 ppm sodium component for a bit of additional realism. Just a personal preference thing. No other explanation. YMMV
 
Cool. Thanks for your reply. I agree, this style has been elusive for me over the last 15 years. Always good beer but not like in Bavaria. I have not tried a higher than normal mash pH. I did try some LODO techniques and got the best hefe I ever brewed. If you have tried them, I would give it a shot. All I did was boil all of my brewing water to take the oxygen out, do a closed transfer and spund in the keg. The subdued flavors of beers past turned into bright, malty flavors as in Germany.

I would like to hear some other opinions as your quote of "It has been observed that an acidified mash results in lower quality estery aromas [Her05]." going to "Under no circumstances should you be adding acid from any other source" seems like a large leap. Not saying you are wrong. It just seems incomplete.

Since I now brew on an induction burner I do a long slow swoop mash with a dough in at 95f and a path all the way up to 172f. I pause at 111f, 121f, 140f, 152f and 161f but mainly am trying to slide through the entire range with the burner on its lowest setting. It happens to be easy as well :) I am brewing next week so I will increase the pH some and see how it turns out.

I may have been a bit matter-of-fact in my "under no circumstances" statement and after some reflection, I feel I should dial that back a bit. Certainly, there are situations where it would be appropriate to add a little bit of acid, however in my case, I have been refraining from adding acid to my Hefes and I have liked the results. At any rate, that's what I get for posting after a having a couple beers. :bott:

I will give pre-boiling the water a try when I brew my next Hefe (probably in about six weeks) and shoot for a mash pH of about 5.6 and tailor the mineral additions to enhance maltiness. My cold side O2 mitigation is pretty well developed and effective, but I've not strayed into the LoDo realm at all on the hot side. Seems like pre-boiling the water would be worthwhile to try without going too far overboard.:mug:
 
No worries. I went with pre-boiling just for that reason - not too far overboard. I am happy with the results with just a little more time up front.

**Edit** It is also important to underlet the mash after you boil the water so you do not re-oxygenate when adding to the grain.
 
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1.5 mg per drop x 4 drops = 6 mg

6 mg / (10 Gal. * 3.7854 L/Gal.) = 0.159 mg/L

If most yeast strains require 0.1 - 0.2 mg/L, then 4 drops is rather nicely splitting the difference.

3 drops would be 0.12 mg/L
 
I'm having a problem understanding the numbers with no unit attached to them. ( Ca:11 ); ( Na: 8 ) ; 11 what?? 8 what ?? I'm sure this is a stupid question, but I missed something somewhere along the line . Many Thanks,
Bob
usually those values are in "Parts per million " PPM
 
I should have stated earlier that Martin Brungard brought the zinc deficiency issue with regard to brewing with RO water to my attention, and that he is to be credited for my awareness of this. I merely discovered the zinc sulfate product seen in my post #23 above. Most yeast nutrients do not contain zinc, and to my knowledge only Servomyces yeast nutrient contains zinc. Since I use Fermaid K as my yeast nutrient, I add 3-4 drops of the weak zinc sulfate solution found in the link I provided in post #23 above. There are many similar zinc sulfate nutritional products to the one I linked which would be just as good.
 
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1.5 mg per drop x 4 drops = 6 mg

6 mg / (10 Gal. * 3.7854 L/Gal.) = 0.159 mg/L

If most yeast strains require 0.1 - 0.2 mg/L, then 4 drops is rather nicely splitting the difference.

3 drops would be 0.12 mg/L

If you answered my question before I edited it you are correct and I read that yeast want 1-2 mg, not 0.1-0.2 mg as i noticed my error later.

But also. I found a product which ships to me, liquid zink. It says it contains zink from sulfate. and that it contains "ultra pure water". So is this heptahydrate? ZnSO4.7H2O? I also read that if using a heptahydrate one needs to bump it by 4x. I'm confused if the info for the product you linked to takes this into account? That one drop is actually what it states when it comes to pure zinc content.

I don't brew with RO water, but after starting using Seromyces in my hefes a few years ago they have improved very much.
 
But also. I found a product which ships to me, liquid zink. It says it contains zink from sulfate. and that it contains "ultra pure water". So is this heptahydrate? ZnSO4.7H2O? I also read that if using a heptahydrate one needs to bump it by 4x. I'm confused if the info for the product you linked to takes this into account? That one drop is actually what it states when it comes to pure zinc content.

I don't brew with RO water, but after starting using Seromyces in my hefes a few years ago they have improved very much.

All I can say as to the zinc content is that one would hope that the manufacturer is capable of getting the zinc concentration correct for their product. That it contains zinc at some level is evident from the many reviewers who professed a complaint that they couldn't tolerate the strong zinc taste when adding the recommended 10 drops to a cup of water or fruit juice. Another good reason to not exceed 4 drops in 10 gallons.
 
Using those zinc drops is probably a better option for homebrew dosing since the dose when using solid zinc chloride or zinc sulfate is incredibly small. Those diluted drops should make it much easier. Good find, Larry.
 
While weizen yeasts do tend to drive beer pH down better than some other yeasts, you don't want to handicap them too much with an overly high wort pH. One factor that may not have been mentioned is that many German brewers mash at a slightly higher pH and carry that pH through most of the boil. However, most then add saurergut to the wort at the end of boil to bring the pre-fermentation wort pH into a proper range. For the typical homebrewer, targeting a slightly lower mashing pH in the 5.2 to 5.4 range is an easier and surer way to produce a great hefeweizen.

If clove notes are missing in your hefe's, the most important components in achieving that are to: 1) perform a ferrulic acid rest, 2) limit the wheat content to about 50%. The biggest fault I find in judging commercial American-made craft hefe's is that they lack the clove note due to their single-step mashing. You will have a very difficult time creating clove without that low temp ferrulic rest. The other aspect that is worth explaining is that barley contains more of the clove precursors than wheat does. That's the reason behind limiting wheat percentage. In my opinion, executing these factors is more successful in producing a great weizen than performing the elevated mashing pH and end of boil pH reduction.

Yes and no.
for the original taste of German wheat beer, do not add acid. Acid destroys the banana flavor.

This makes it difficult to get into the right pH range. Munich water is really only suitable for dark beers. That is why it is treated.
The optimal residual alkalinity for a wheat beer is between 0 - 5 dH, corresponding to 0 - 89 ppm CaCO3.

Probably the best water for a wheat beer is taken by the monks of Weltenburg Abbey on the Danube in Bavaria. The monastery is the oldest brewery in the world.

pH 7.5
Ca 116
Mg 28
Na 7
SO₄ 35
Cl 28


Total hardness 20.9 dH = 3,89 mmol/L

The high magnesium value should be noted.

A German Hefeweizen also works with a higher pH. pH 5.6 should almost never be reached without additives. That's why a wheat beer also works with hard Munich water.
German brewing scientists Kai Tröster and Prof. Narziß state pH 6.0 as the optimum value for a wheat.

However, one reason why Hefeweizen also works with hard water could be that the mash contains only 50% husks and thus fewer tannins can be dissolved from it.

Quote
"Furthermore, even with pure osmosis water, the pH value does not fall far below 6.0 (+/- measurement tolerance)."

This I can confirm.
 
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Yes and no.
for the original taste of German wheat beer, do not add acid. Acid destroys the banana flavor.

Hmm, this is sounding like a ‘tomatoe’ ‘tomata’ argument. All brewing requires acid. The question is how it gets there and when in the process.

German brewers employ several options including acid rests, saurergut, and acid malt. You are correct that traditional German brewers do not use liquid acids such as lactic. But they do still employ acid in their brewing.

In my opinion, the worst thing a Weizen brewer can do, is fail to properly acidify their wort or beer. I’ve had hundreds of pro and home brewed Weizens and their dull flavors, darker color, and lack of brightness are dead giveaways.

Weizen brings a multitude of flavors to the taster: banana, vanilla, clove, etc. I don’t find that most German Weizens have much banana notes since that overwhelms the other flavors and is a mark of poor brewing.

I can guarantee that pH has far less impact on banana than fermentation temperature. However, keeping mashing pH in the high 5 range does enhance ferrulic acid production which enhances clove flavor and aroma. So this does suggest that pH can be high early in the brewing process, but an important fact is that wort pH is brought down to a lower range later. It’s never left high, since that’s a great way to produce that lackluster result I mentioned above.
 
I would agree. The late boil sauergut or lactic addition down to the 5.1 range (or lower) is the key. I do not think one wants to put pH 6 wort in the fermenter and expect the yeast to be happy.

I have been employing low oxygen techniques over the past two years and my hefeweizen brews are night and day better. I would encourage all who are chasing this style to give some serious consideration to this approach. Low oxygen on the hot side, use of sauergut I made myself, keg purging and spunding all add up to keeping the flavors and aromas of this style of beer in tact all the way through the process.
 
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Martin, at what point during the mashing should I add any required acid? After the ferulic acid rest?
 
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