Batch Sparge Question

[lenohallock]

I batch sparge and was wondering what the impact is to doing a mash out the first batch sparge. I seem to get approx. the same eff. if I do a single infusion at my target temp at 1.50 water/grain ratio, drain and then do a second infusion at 168 for 10 minutes and drain. I am wondering what I am missing if anything by skipping this the mash out step in the first infusion...Thanks smarter people than me for your input!

 

[brewmeister13]

Pretty sure that it denatures the enzymes at work that are converting starch to sugar and reducing sugars to simpler sugars. By doing so you get a more predictable fermentability out of your mash and can control the end product a bit more. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think this is what I've read.

 

[New_Climber]

When I first switched to AG..I was doing my batch sparge this way...no mash out on the first step. I was getting very poor efficiency. Then again I was very new to AG and it could have been that. I am interested in knowing the science behind it....if some one knows?

 

[brewkinger]

I am fairly new at this but I have read on this forum that a mash out is no longer necessary with the quality of grains available today.

 

[Yooper]

When batch sparging, which is quick, you can put your runnings on to the flame right away so no mash out is needed. Or, you can use hotter water in the sparge if you want to bring your grainbed up to 168 and then drain. It really doesn't matter, though.

When continuous (fly) sparging, which can take an hour or even more, a mash out is normally done to denature the enzymes before sparging. That's really the only difference.

 

[brewkinger]

Yoop:

Are you saying that first runnings can be put on the burner and start to be heated while batch sparging?
I routinely double batch sparge with stir and 5-10 minute rest before draining.

 

[Nosnum08]

Yoop:

Are you saying that first runnings can be put on the burner and start to be heated while batch sparging?
I routinely double batch sparge with stir and 5-10 minute rest before draining.

Yup. This is what I typically do...speeds up the boil time too.

 

[brewkinger]

So this is in essence a mash out because the runnings are brought up to 170ish quickly (especially first runnings)?

 

[Yooper]

So this is in essence a mash out because the runnings are brought up to 170ish quickly (especially first runnings)?

Yes. There is more than one way to skin this cat. You can add nearly boiling water for your sparge water to bring the grainbed to 168- that's also essentially a mash out. But many people just drain the first runnings, stir in the sparge water, and then put the first runnings on the heat to get to a boil. Then drain the sparge runnings, and they're off!

 

[Yooper]

Yoop:

Are you saying that first runnings can be put on the burner and start to be heated while batch sparging?
I routinely double batch sparge with stir and 5-10 minute rest before draining.

Also, keep in mind that if double batch sparging with resting works for you that's great. But the beauty of batch sparging is the times savings.

When I batch sparge, I drain the first runnings and turn on the burner. Then, I stir in the sparge water (generally about 200 degrees), and stir like it owes me money. Then I vorlauf and drain. That fast- say, a total of 10 minutes? give or take. The batch sparge method means there is no advantage to waiting, but of course there is no harm in it either so every brewer may do things a bit differently. I just wanted to mention some options.

 

[funnycreature]

Also, keep in mind that if double batch sparging with resting works for you that's great. But the beauty of batch sparging is the times savings.

When I batch sparge, I drain the first runnings and turn on the burner. Then, I stir in the sparge water (generally about 200 degrees), and stir like it owes me money. Then I vorlauf and drain. That fast- say, a total of 10 minutes? give or take. The batch sparge method means there is no advantage to waiting, but of course there is no harm in it either so every brewer may do things a bit differently. I just wanted to mention some options.

That's easily one of the best lines I've read in a while!

Coincidentally I was listening to a podcast this morning and someone said that starting the boil that early might add a bit of caramelization and possibly melanoidin formation that can impact color and flavor. This is not necessarily bad but when they looked at a Pilsner clone they could notice it.

 

[Yooper]

That's easily one of the best lines I've read in a while!

Coincidentally I was listening to a podcast this morning and someone said that starting the boil that early might add a bit of caramelization and possibly melanoidin formation that can impact color and flavor. This is not necessarily bad but when they looked at a Pilsner clone they could notice it.

Well, that could be true. But for many people, it takes less than 10 minutes to totally batch sparge. The wort isn't even at a simmer by then, so it's not like it's been boiling for an hour like it would be with a fly sparge.

 

[funnycreature]

Well, that could be true. But for many people, it takes less than 10 minutes to totally batch sparge. The wort isn't even at a simmer by then, so it's not like it's been boiling for an hour like it would be with a fly sparge.

Right, it wasn't about the boil but most likely that there is a small volume that (literally) has to take all the heat from the burner. Most likely it doesn't matter, as you said!

 

[brewkinger]

Also, keep in mind that if double batch sparging with resting works for you that's great. But the beauty of batch sparging is the times savings.

Agreed.

On my most recent batch, I actually did what I would consider to be a "fly-batch sparge hybridization"
I added first 2.25 gallons of sparge water
(albeit at 175 degrees, which I now understand needs to be hotter if I want the grain bed to get up close to 170) and stirred (like it owed you money)
and as I was allowing this to drain slowly, I began to pour the remaining half of my sparge water in a little at a time, keeping the water level slightly over the surface of the grain bed. (which if i understand correctly is fly sparge-esque)

I also used my MM2 for the first time on this batch and the resulting mash efficiency was 83.7% according to BS.
So, it is difficult, if not impossible to attribute the increased efficiency to one particular aspect of that brew day.