Looking to give BIAB a try...thinking about dropping the bag inside a steamer basket...how might this affect the mash process? How much will the basket restrict the movement of water during the conversation? I’m guessing it’s a factor of basket size to volume of grain.
Bags inside a steamer basket?
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LittleRiver
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There will be a significant volume of water outside the basket that is not available to the grain -- there's no benefit to that. Also, the basket is one more unnecessary thing to clean. My kettle came with a basket, but it's never been used. Put your bag right in the kettle.
I stopped using my basket as well. Didn't provide any benefit. If you plan on recirculating during the mash, then things would be different.
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North_of_60
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I use the basket. There is plenty of water for conversion. My mash eficency is 82%. It makes draining simple. Cleaning it is easy.
Less strain on the bag to lift by the basket. When your bag finally gets old, rips, and dumps everything in the kettle you'll wish you used it. Ask me how I know! I now use a better bag but wish I had a basket. Also a traditional mash tun has a lot less water in the mash for conversion. Having some of the water outside the mash won't hurt. I do it all the time. I have a false bottom raised to protect the electric element. About 1.5 gallons sit below. Never had an issue.
blubrewbbq
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I normally recirculate a few gallons during the mash to help a little. Still get 80% or so efficiency.
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I run a small pump and the heater on a temp controller now, but I used propane for years with no pump. I'd stir, wrap with a blanket and walk away for at least an hour. Always came out good. No issues.
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I brewed in the past this way on a small batch 3.5 gallon system. The kettle came with the basket, i’m lazy, and would use a new paint strainer bag every brew. I loved it because it kept it off the electric element. And i think there is something to the basket “relaxing” the weight on the grain and bag so it maybe had better recirculation? I recirculated with a march pump the whole mash.
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odie
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My basket arrived today. I wasn’t sure about it since my kettle is not a kettle. It’s a Greek olive oil barrel, about 12.5 gal. Got this thunder group 50/60 that fits like a glove. there isn’t even 1/4 gap on the sides. I’ll have to flip the handle brackets to drop it in.
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odie
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I’m thinking to make some spacers out of some marble blocks to raise it just above the heater element and also eliminate at least half the “dead space “ below the basket. Plus I would like to be able to recirculate or even fly sparge if I don’t mash full boil volume
How old is old enough to rip. My paint strainer bag is approaching 10 years with probably 15 batches a year.
Soulshine2
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how about using the jar basket one would use in a hot bath canning jar pot...
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odie
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My thoughts wilh marble blocks on the bottom of the kettle is to eliminate wort/liquid volume below the basket. Basically displacing as much liquid volume that is below the mash as possible, thus increasing the volume of mash liquid actually inside the bag/basket...if I just use SS bolts, a steamer rack or other spacer, then I'm still not effectively using that liquid for the mash process.
Marble/granite, being a solid, inert & non-porous material would effectively "raise" the floor of the kettle. You will of course need to use smooth/polished cuts/blocks of marble or granite that you can easily clean and keep clean. Arrange them to take up as much of that "dead space" as possible. And you will need to determine their total volume so you can compensate for your kettle markings to determine your new pre & post boil levels. And again, make sure they are clean.
From what I've been reading in all the threads about eBIAB is that when you elevate the bag or basket off the bottom of the kettle to clear the heating element, you then have up to a gallon strike/mash water in that "dead space" that is not really interacting with the grain during the conversion process...unless you are recirculating constantly, but then again, the fine crush that is mentioned may hinder that recirculation.
Marble/granite, being a solid, inert & non-porous material would effectively "raise" the floor of the kettle. You will of course need to use smooth/polished cuts/blocks of marble or granite that you can easily clean and keep clean. Arrange them to take up as much of that "dead space" as possible. And you will need to determine their total volume so you can compensate for your kettle markings to determine your new pre & post boil levels. And again, make sure they are clean.
From what I've been reading in all the threads about eBIAB is that when you elevate the bag or basket off the bottom of the kettle to clear the heating element, you then have up to a gallon strike/mash water in that "dead space" that is not really interacting with the grain during the conversion process...unless you are recirculating constantly, but then again, the fine crush that is mentioned may hinder that recirculation.
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Yes, the dead space water is not participating in the saccharification process, except for whatever soluble starch might diffuse into the dead space and finish saccharification there. However, you don't need all the water in the mash for saccharification to complete. Brewers have mashed with as little a 1 qt/lb, so as long as the water volume in the basket is more than enough to give you 1 qt/lb, the mash will proceed just fine.
The problem is that after the mash is complete, the wort outside the basket will have lower extract concentration than the wort inside the basket with the grain. So, unless you can homogenize all the wort prior to lifting the bag, the wort held by the grain will have higher than the average extract concentration and this will decrease your lauter efficiency (and thus mash efficiency.) Reducing the dead space will reduce the loss in lauter efficiency due to inhomogeneity. So, the blocks may not help the mash, but should improve your lauter efficiency.
You will probably want to remove the blocks prior to heating for the boil. Lack of liquid under the blocks can lead to local overheating and scorching if using an external heat source (i.e. propane burner.) Scorching shouldn't be an issue with submerged element heating, as long as the blocks do not come into contact with the element. The boiling action is also likely to cause the blocks to move around, which may or may not be an issue.
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odie
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I'm using an internal water heater element. Otherwise I would be able to drop the basket to the very bottom. And I wasn't planning to stick my hand in there to grab them out...hot hot hot as Buster Poindexter would say. I don't think heavy marble will be moving around much anyway.
I intend to recirculate, at least more than the dead space volume. Plus since the kettle is not insulated like my old cooler, I may even apply heat during recirc to maintain mash temp. This should homogenize everything, or at least push the higher gravity wort down thru the bag/basket combo to the bottom of the kettle as the lower concentrate stuff will be re-introduced to the top of the bag/basket combo, then when lifting basically the lowest concentration liquid is above the grain level in the bag and will flow/sparge thru the bulk of the grain?
I'm also assuming there will be sediment and such at the bottom of the kettle that the recirc would move back into the bag and maybe result is clearer wort.
I intend to recirculate, at least more than the dead space volume. Plus since the kettle is not insulated like my old cooler, I may even apply heat during recirc to maintain mash temp. This should homogenize everything, or at least push the higher gravity wort down thru the bag/basket combo to the bottom of the kettle as the lower concentrate stuff will be re-introduced to the top of the bag/basket combo, then when lifting basically the lowest concentration liquid is above the grain level in the bag and will flow/sparge thru the bulk of the grain?
I'm also assuming there will be sediment and such at the bottom of the kettle that the recirc would move back into the bag and maybe result is clearer wort.
Was reading about BIAB I saw one Mash setup with a coil just above the bottom of the kettle/tun, and then a bed of polished stainless ball bearings to act as both a diffusion base and spacer between the coil and their colander. Would make for a seriously heavy kettle but then using granite/marble would also do so... but has the benefit of being high heat and dishwasher safe.
wilserbrewer
BIAB Expert Tailor
Marble / granite blocks, ball bearings, and steamer baskets oh my!
I’m a fan of dead simple BIAB consisting of a heat source, either internal or external, a kettle and a bag....anything more is just something to trip on.
Of course opinions vary, have fun regardless
I’m a fan of dead simple BIAB consisting of a heat source, either internal or external, a kettle and a bag....anything more is just something to trip on.
Of course opinions vary, have fun regardless
Please explain what your recircultion is expected to do that makes the complication worthwhile.
It will even out temperatures throughout the mash. At our level it's not absolutely nessesary. If we're worried about efficiency loss I find it easier to just add a little bit of extra base malt to the bill. However I don't really have issues with efficiency even when I don't use the pump. I adjust my grain or water volumes slightly. I know my system and adjust accordingly. Adding marble, baskets, pumps, etc. is doable and works but sometimes I think we over think things. I constantly find myself trying to use less and I usually get the same or very close results. Less to clean and care for. Less chances for breaking or infections. There are a few exceptions where extras are needed but those are usually when things are taken to the extream.
When I first started I bought a cheap bag. 10-15 batches later it let loose. Can't really say why for sure. It was a large grain bill, a cheap bag, and a bad day. Now I have a better bag but I still get flashbacks. I'd like to get a Wilserbrewer bag, just haven't pulled the trigger yet.
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odie
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Recirc during the mash should keep temps more consistent throughout the entire kettle and get all the volume through the grain bed. When I pull the basket some additional recirculation I would think help clear the wort. As the grains compact when pulled from the kettle, they become a filter and should clear some haze out...
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odie
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Well my first road block...I flipped the handle brackets to the inside so the basket could drop...well it’s still a bit too wide. A little action on the bench grinder and it just slips in...dropped to the thermometer probe...which keeps it off the element but increased dead space...haven’t measured that yet since I’m just heating up to see if the basket will expand enough to get stuck...
I like how the basket is turning out. You definitely seem to be doing homework or you wouldn't be thinking about things the way you are. I applaud it because I know a number of homebrewers that just "phone it in". They just don't put in the time to try and improve. That said you can go too far the other way and over think it. You sometimes have to step back and ask yourself "is this really going to make things better"? I'm guilty of this myself. VERY guilty! I think the marble idea has its heart in the right place but may be overkill. The dead space thing. Not an issue. Full conversion is not an issue. Don't need a pump to recirculate. Just a spoon to stir and a good blanket to wrap the kettle. I've read multiple places most conversion is done in the first 15/20 minutes. The extra 45 minutes is cleanup basically. As far as trub. No fear. On the same recipe I've whilpooled and strained the wort, and just dumped the trub in. Both were the same to my palate and crystal clear. It's your, money and time, do as you please. I only mention this to save you a little sanity. Check out the Brulosophy web sight. There are many many experiments they've done that helped me save my sanity. I think it'd be right up your alley. http://brulosophy.com
Keeping the temperature consistent is a great goal but it only matters while conversion is happening. How long does it normally take for your mash to get full conversion? Once conversion is completed, the temperature isn't critical as all you are doing then is letting the color and flavors be extracted which can happen in a wide range of temperatures.
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odie
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Guess I should start doing that iodine test? The basket is not a bunch of extra work. Makes it super easy to pull the bag. Don’t need a pulley or hanger, just a couple long sticks or spoons to lay across the pot. Then I can easily take the grain to compost.
And I recirc a bit by hand with a large measuring cup. I got nothing better to do while watching water boil...lol
And I recirc a bit by hand with a large measuring cup. I got nothing better to do while watching water boil...lol
wilserbrewer
BIAB Expert Tailor
Same can be said about a proper fitting bag...but if using a basket makes you happy, have at it.
My experience tells me that the basket adds little to no value, and can be a detriment...my opinion.
LittleRiver
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Odie, you seem to be having fun. I call that success, and you haven't even brewed with this rig yet. Well done.
Be flexible. If you find that marble blocks, baskets, recirculation, etc, aren't getting you anything (except extra cleanup time), remember that you can drop them.
I can see some worth in a basket if you don't have an overhead hoist point. I read one thread where a guy rigged some little spring loaded brackets that automatically flipped open when the basket was raised. That allowed him to raise the basket with both hands, there was no need to put anything between the basket and the kettle -- the brackets took care of that.
Your olive oil barrel kettle is cool, I've never seen one. Where'd you find it?
Be flexible. If you find that marble blocks, baskets, recirculation, etc, aren't getting you anything (except extra cleanup time), remember that you can drop them.
I can see some worth in a basket if you don't have an overhead hoist point. I read one thread where a guy rigged some little spring loaded brackets that automatically flipped open when the basket was raised. That allowed him to raise the basket with both hands, there was no need to put anything between the basket and the kettle -- the brackets took care of that.
Your olive oil barrel kettle is cool, I've never seen one. Where'd you find it?
When I commented about extra work I meant the marble. The basket I have no problem. Keeps the bag off the element if you design it right and helps with drain the grain. I use a similar method with a large collendar. The marble changes your volume and now the kettle markers won't be accurate, it's one more thing to clean, one more expense, it's density will change how fast you cool your wort if you use an immersion chiller (more important in my opinion). But the most important point.... It's unnecessary. Conversion will happen. The sugar will extract. If you're that concerned about loosing efficiency hold back some water from the mash and rinse the bag. In fact one of the arguments against BIAB from traditionalists is the mash is too diluted with all the water for the batch in the mash. To which BIAB enthusiasts reply with award winning beers that it can be and is done this way. But that's why I argue about the marble. While it's not hard and probably will work, It's one more thing to deal with in an already busy day and just isn't needed. The dead space water is fine. You will not have a problem.
