Bag WILL NOT drain. Why?

[Dr_Jeff]

For a conversion test, I'll oftentimes get a pinch of the mash after it has been in there 10 minutes or so and again, just before the sparge.
If everything is going good, the first time it will be sweet and tasty, and the last time, pretty much flavorless.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Happy to report that all is back to normal. I picked up another bag of grains from the same shop this morning, set everything up, mashed in, pulled the bag and everything went just as smooth as it always has. I picked up some other phosphoric acid from a different shop just to be sure that I could eliminate that variable. It was the same LD Carlson that I always have but perhaps from a different lot of the recent one that was way too strong. I did everything the same way I always do so I am 100% convinced, as if there was any doubt, that it was the bad phosphoric acid.

I’d just like to give a genuine thank you to everyone who chimed in yesterday to help figure out the problem. I really appreciate all of the insight and input.

Special thank you to @Bobby_M.

For anyone interested in supporting a great shop, check him out here:

www.brewhardware.com

(I’m assuming I can share this link but if not just let me know)

 

[Biggz1313]

So glad a culprit was found. I was following this thread like a good murder mystery. Nice work everyone, haha.

 

[jerrylotto]

Not sure if you have a pH meter, but it would be a great addition to your process to double check pH at various stages.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Not sure if you have a pH meter, but it would be a great addition to your process to double check pH at various stages.

I don’t have a pH meter, but I’ve thought about getting one for years. The only thing that’s preventing me from doing so is the fact that I’ve never had any problems like this before. I typically do my calculations, follow the process and everything works out fine.

 

[jerrylotto]

Until it doesn't Measure AND verify, that's the only way to get consistent great results.

 

[dirkomatic]

What an interesting outcome. I have always been under the impression that I don't need to use anything to adjust my mash pH. Every time I tested it, it was fine without adding anything, so I never added anything and I even stopped checking. I guess maybe because I always start with distilled or RO....? Is there any other reason one would need to use phosphoric acid?

 

[VikeMan]

What an interesting outcome. I have always been under the impression that I don't need to use anything to adjust my mash pH. Every time I tested it, it was fine without adding anything, so I never added anything and I even stopped checking. I guess maybe because I always start with distilled or RO....? Is there any other reason one would need to use phosphoric acid?

If you never add anything to your distilled water mashes, but your pH is always in range (say 5.2-5.6), you must not be brewing very pale beers. There's no such thing as a water source that will land every grist in a preferred range.

 

[dirkomatic]

I do use additives (salts, etc.) I use additives for the style I am brewing and have them in the recipes I have created. I never add any acid and I have brewed pale beers. I can see why my previous post is misleading... I stated "I never add anything." I should have stated I was fine without directly adding acid and I have not directly added acids other than salts for the style I am brewing.

 

[Bobby_M]

If you use a lot of gypsum and calcium chloride, they lower pH but I have never used enough to get me to 5.3 without a couple ml of 88% lactic.

 

[BrewZer]

The reason I ask is that I just received a phone call (I mean literally as I typed the first sentence above) from LD Carlson telling me that I should discard the bottles of phosphoric that I got on my last order because it had a higher concentration than 10% as labelled.

An online search doesn't reveal any kind of recall message...

However, there are some reviews on Amazon indicating others have had issues with it...

 

[jerrylotto]

It's easy enough to determine the concentration of a phosphoric acid solution using methyl orange as an indicator by titration with a known sodium hydroxide solution concentration. All you need is a beaker and a pipette - both reagents are cheap and readily available. Once you know what it currently is, you can dilute it to the desired concentration.

 

[bruce_the_loon]

An online search doesn't reveal any kind of recall message...

However, there are some reviews on Amazon indicating others have had issues with it...

Could be a very small batch issue and they were able to contact all the consignees.

 

[cajunrph]

It's easy enough to determine the concentration of a phosphoric acid solution using methyl orange as an indicator by titration with a known sodium hydroxide solution concentration. All you need is a beaker and a pipette - both reagents are cheap and readily available. Once you know what it currently is, you can dilute it to the desired concentration.

Clear as mud to some. Haha Although I know what you're talking about. Brings back memories of Pharmacy School.

 

[z-bob]

Don't throw away the phosphoric acid, 85% is good stuff, you just use a lot less.

I was going to say the picture *looks* starchy, but could that just be beta glucan from all the oats? When I brewed a beer that was >50% rye I did a protein rest (rye doesn't have glucanase enzymes for a beta glucan rest) and it was still a little gummy -- it did drain though, it was just slow and I had to squeeze the bag.

 

[IslandLizard]

Don't throw away the phosphoric acid, 85% is good stuff, you just use a lot less.

==> Although it's a total no-brainer, I'm really glad you mentioned it! <==

Now determining the actual strength can be a bit cumbersome for most.

Those little 4oz brew store bottles of 10% Phosphoric acid are ridiculously expensive for what it gives you. 88% Lactic Acid lasts 8.8x longer and is lower priced.
I bought a gallon of 85% Phosphoric Acid from Duda Diesel, and split half of that with some group grain buy members. I'm set for 2 brew lives with the remaining half gallon.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I just got my ward labs report back and while we determined that it was indeed the acid that caused the problems, here is the report. The first report is from May of 2020:

And here is the one I just got back. While not identical, the numbers are very, very similar:

 

[Cyclman]

This thread was a fantastic read, like a Sherlock Holmes mystery! Bobby is awesome. I have a good number of his products.

 

[Bobby_M]

LD wouldn't disclose the concentration and I suspect it's because they don't know. They replaced the 10 bottles in my last order and I discarded the weird ones. Luckily only the thread OP got the only bottle from that lot.

 

[RufusBrewer]

What about the rest of us that recently got some LD Carlson phosphoric acid?

I did not get it from Brew hardware. But I assume the issue is greater than Bobbie's bottles.

 

[Dancy]

So I wouldn’t need to be concerned about shelf life?

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm set for 2 brew lives with the remaining half gallon

So I wouldn’t need to be concerned about shelf life?

Shelf life of the brewer?
Or the acid?

 

[Bobby_M]

LD contacted me, so I assume they contacted any other affected retailers. You can probably alleviate your concerns by making a call. Another option is to add a very conservatives amount and test your pH immediately.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Do the bottles have lot numbers?

 

[Bobby_M]

no

 

[z-bob]

Assume it's 85% (it's certainly not going to be much stronger.) Dose with it as if it's 85%; check the pH if you can, mainly so you can add a little more if necessary, otherwise just see how the brew goes.

 

[ihavenonickname]

Holy sh!t this thread read like a horror movie at first… pull the bag and no wort… NO WORT! brewers nightmare! Then it read like an edge of your seat who-done-it murder mystery! I thought for sure it was the “the butler” i mean the unmalted barley.

Kudos to @Bobby_M as usual, I’m again impressed by your customer service.

@HopsAreGood I still am stunned at how pale and creamy your beers look using 2-row. Do you use a short boil?

 

[HopsAreGood]

Holy sh!t this thread read like a horror movie at first… pull the bag and no wort… NO WORT! brewers nightmare! Then it read like an edge of your seat who-done-it murder mystery! I thought for sure it was the “the butler” i mean the unmalted barley.

Kudos to @Bobby_M as usual, I’m again impressed by your customer service.

@HopsAreGood I still am stunned at how pale and creamy your beers look using 2-row. Do you use a short boil?

I do, generally only a 15-20 minute boil.

 

[IslandLizard]

I do, generally only a 15-20 minute boil.

How's the DMS level in the resulting beer?

 

[z-bob]

How's the DMS level in the resulting beer?

I've never had detectable DMS with pilsner malt and a 30 minute boil.