Bag WILL NOT drain. Why?

[superiorsat]

After a second look I guess I don't see a lot of flaked grains but I still think you could be dealing with an over milled situation.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Any other LHBS nearby? Brew a test batch using grains from a different shop, or from online.

There are, But I’ve never had any issues at all. If anything I would probably just brew a batch with Pilsner instead of 2-row and see if that made a difference.

 

[odie]

I doubt it's a grain source issue. How long did you mash? And are you sure about your mash temps?

Looks like a lot of whole grains in your pictures.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Do you have access to six row malt? Do a couple stove top mini mashes. One with you current two row, one with the six row. Do you see a difference?

I do have access to it, but I don’t store or mill my own grains. I simply buy them batch to batch. I suppose I could do this but I would probably just try another full batch using something other than the two row.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Back to the water. I would double check your pH. Do you have a treatment system in the house like a softener? Regardless, you will probably want to add Campden to knock out any chlorine/chloramine and phosphoric or lactic acid to drop you pH to around 5.4-5.6. This will only help your mash enzymes to their job better.

Here is a copy of my ward labs water report:

I always adjust PH using 10% phosphoric acid to 5.25-5.35. I have never had any issue whatsoever with conversion until these last two brews. I use the same online calculator that I’ve been using forever and it has never let me down. I suppose it’s possible that the water has changed, but again I would think that’s highly unlikely. And even if it did change I can’t imagine that it would change so substantially to make such a huge difference.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Do you mill your own grains? Hard to tell for sure from the picture as I see a lot of flaked grain but that gel can also come from fine dust of over milled grains. There is one homebrew shop near me that I've only used twice (4 beers worth) that way over mills their grain. Stuck sparges every time you buy from there which is the only times I have ever had a stuck sparge. The girl at the counter says I always use rice hulls no matter what, then laughs. Didn't put 2 and 2 together until the second time I bought from this place. It has been years since I let anyone mill my grains and this was the place that pushed me into milling my own grain. My normal home brew shop does a good job but buying in bulk saves money and milling is in my control now.

I have been buying my grains from the same shop for several years. As I’ve said I don’t store my own grains, and I simply buy them batch to batch. At this particular store they have two options when buying your grains: Brew in a bag/extra fine, or traditional/false bottom. I have always ordered the brew in a bag crush option and never had these issues. I even spoke with the owner of the shop after the first time and the second time, and that was my initial guess was that maybe the grains were crushed more than they ever have been before. He assured me that nothing has changed in the mill setting, and it’s basically set as fine as it can go. So even if they wanted to crush them further they couldn’t.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I doubt it's a grain source issue. How long did you mash? And are you sure about your mash temps?

Looks like a lot of whole grains in your pictures.

I kind of agree with you. It seems crazy that the grains may be void of the necessary enzymes, but I have to think that it is a possibility. I did a typical 60 minute mash like I always do, and yes I’m very certain of my temperatures. I use a digital ink bird and tested it yesterday in boiling water and it read 212 on the dot, and then put it under my tongue and it was exactly where it should be for my body temperature.

As I’ve said before, i’ve brewed a lot of batches of beer using the same exact method and set up. So it would make sense if the temperature was the issue, but the thermometer appears to be reading perfectly.

Yesterdays strike temperature was 157, and then 150 after mashing in which is right in line with where it usually is. If it were one or two degrees off in each direction it obviously wouldn’t make a huge deal. That being said I really can’t see it being 10, 15, 20 degrees off.

I mentioned yesterday that I only put the thermometer a few inches down into the strike water. The heat source is obviously underneath the kettle so it’s possible it may be much hotter at the bottom. In order to get an accurate reading I do mix the water around and stir it with a big paddle to make sure that it’s as uniform as possible.

Again though, this is the exact process I’ve done before so many times and never had an issue. So even if it is hotter at the bottom of the kettle, it’s never mattered before so I can’t imagine that’s it.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Here are the specifics from yesterday’s disaster...99% of the beers that I make and have had no issues with are extremely similar to this...I really don’t alter too much:

 

[IslandLizard]

Just eyeballing your water and additions, that 95 ml of 10% Phosphoric Acid seems way too high.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Just eyeballing your water and additions, that 95 ml of 10% Phosphoric Acid seems way too high.

It’s definitely a possibility, but I keep coming back to the “it hasn’t been an issue before.” I’ve been using the same calculator for years and routinely put anywhere between 75-95 ml into my starting water.

I use the lovibond function which calculates the amount of grain/amount of water and color of the grains. I make extremely pale beers so it does take quite a bit to get it down. I used to always add a little bit of acid malt but since I stopped doing that the amount of phosphoric goes up.

Also, Im well aware many people will mash in the 5.4 to 5.6 range, but you’ll notice that I go for about 5.25 because I have favorable results with the style of beers that I make. Northeast/hazy IPA.

I’ve probably done 50+ batches using this calculator and mashing at about 5.25 to 5.3.

I could show you countless screenshots like the ones I posted above, with 90, 95, 80, 85 etc. for beers that turned out perfectly.

I always do the calculations ahead of time and then take a few screenshots and save them as I do my brew. So I have a very extensive collection of brewday statistics.

 

[IslandLizard]

I too use a 5.25 mash pH for NEIPAs. If that acid addition worked before don't change a winning team.

What brand 2-row was that?
Could it have been [EDIT] chit malt? raw, unmalted barley?
It's possible they dumped a wrong sack in the 2-row bin, at your supplier.
I would definitely try to check that before brewing another batch.

As I said before, do a small 8-16 oz test mash with that "2-row" in a small pot in a 155F warmed up then turned off oven. Check for conversion.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I too use a 5.25 mash pH for NEIPAs. If that acid addition worked before don't change a winning team.

What brand 2-row was that?
Could it have been [EDIT] chit malt? raw, unmalted barley?
It's possible they dumped a wrong sack in the 2-row bin, at your supplier.
I would definitely try to check that before brewing another batch.

As I said before, do a small 8-16 oz test mash with that "2-row" in a small pot in a 155F warmed up then turned off oven. Check for conversion.

Supposed to have been Briess 2-row. The same Briess 2-row I’ve used a million times before from the same shop. The more I go through all of the possibilities, the more I think there has to be something wrong with the grain.

 

[IslandLizard]

The more I go through all of the possibilities, the more I think there has to be something wrong with the grain.

Oh, definitely!
And it's not the oat malt that's wrong, it has a low DP, it can barely convert it self, if at all. The horsepower comes from the 2-row malt, and from what it looks, it had none.

 

[JJinMD]

Since you don't mill, it might be worth it to keep iodine and some amylase on hand so you can check for starch and then add amylase if needed. I saved a brew one time with a pound of distillers malt when my mash temp got out of range and wasnt passing iodine test.

 

[grampamark]

I’m inclined to agree with @IslandLizard that someone at the LHBS put unmalted barley in the 2-row bin. There doesn’t appear to be anything about your process which would cause a complete denaturing of the enzymes. If the grain was mislabeled, the store should be receiving complaints similar to yours from other customers. I’d continue to follow up with the store staff.

 

[Bobby_M]

I guess it's a good time to chime in as I'm the grain vendor. First, I agree that based on the wet grain picture that it's extremely starchy looking so I'm positive it's a conversion issue. My first thought was temperature but that was already fully discussed. I see the 212 in boiling water test but would also recommend an icewater slurry test to make sure the calibration is linear.

Grain source: First, we do not buy or stock unmalted barley but I wouldn't rule out Briess putting unmalted barley in a standard Brewer's Malt bag. However, We buy our Briess 2row from primarily LD carlson and BSG and I buy 20-30 sacks at a time. Both of the OP's batches came out of the last 3 sacks we had in the lot because I'm down to about 10 pound from being out right now. If there was a problem with that lot of malt, there would have been about 850 pounds of it used previously and I would have heard about it. Actually two of my employees just recently brewed with the 2-row as well.

One thing that I do every brew day is take in-progress samples from the mash and test the gravity. I like to see the gravity rising and compare that against the elapsed time to see if I think I'm hitting my numbers or not. If I had a mash that wasn't converting, I'd see that right away as I'd be way off the numbers.

I'm performing a small mash right now with one pound of the malt and will report back in an hour.

Water... It's possible the profile has changed quite a bit which is why I stopped using tap water over the years. I'd send a sample to Ward a few times a year and see it waver in a way I wasn't comfortable with. $100 later I have an RO system and build from zero each time. It's worth trying a batch with RO or distilled to see.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I guess it's a good time to chime in as I'm the grain vendor. First, I agree that based on the wet grain picture that it's extremely starchy looking so I'm positive it's a conversion issue. My first thought was temperature but that was already fully discussed. I see the 212 in boiling water test but would also recommend an icewater slurry test to make sure the calibration is linear.

Grain source: First, we do not buy or stock unmalted barley but I wouldn't rule out Briess putting unmalted barley in a standard Brewer's Malt bag. However, We buy our Briess 2row from primarily LD carlson and BSG and I buy 20-30 sacks at a time. Both of the OP's batches came out of the last 3 sacks we had in the lot because I'm down to about 10 pound from being out right now. If there was a problem with that lot of malt, there would have been about 850 pounds of it used previously and I would have heard about it. Actually two of my employees just recently brewed with the 2-row as well.

One thing that I do every brew day is take in-progress samples from the mash and test the gravity. I like to see the gravity rising and compare that against the elapsed time to see if I think I'm hitting my numbers or not. If I had a mash that wasn't converting, I'd see that right away as I'd be way off the numbers.

I'm performing a small mash right now with one pound of the malt and will report back in an hour.

Water... It's possible the profile has changed quite a bit which is why I stopped using tap water over the years. I'd send a sample to Ward a few times a year and see it waver in a way I wasn't comfortable with. $100 later I have an RO system and build from zero each time. It's worth trying a batch with RO or distilled to see.

Thank you for chiming in. I just ordered another test kit from ward labs. I’m definitely interested to see if the water has changed and will report back once I get the results. Should prob be about 7-10 days or so.

Prior to getting my first report I always used to build from distilled/RO. One of the main reasons that I wanted to start using my tapwater, if it was indeed brew worthy, is because it comes out of my tap at about 130 degrees. It takes me all of about 5 to 10 minutes tops to get it up to strike temp as opposed to bringing up the distilled/RO from room temperature. I’m all about shortening the brew time wherever I can without cutting corners. For whatever it’s worth I did run my thermometer under the water as it was filling the kettle like I always do, and it read right at 130.

Also, hopefully it’s been pretty clear that I’m in no way pointing fingers whatsoever. Just trying to figure out what could’ve possibly happened by a process of elimination. If indeed it’s not the grain, then it has to be something else, and I’m definitely willing to figure out what that may be.

 

[HopsAreGood]

So now that I’m thinking about the fact that my water may or may not have changed, I plugged in some numbers into my Calculator just to see how much it might change. Leaving all things equal including the starting water volume, the grains, the color, the acid addition, the brewing salts, etc. and only changing the pH of the tapwater, I get these results:

Tap water PH of 6.5: mash PH unaffected 5.25
Tap water PH of 7: mash PH unaffected 5.25
Tap water PH of 7.5 (what I had initially inputted and am currently under the impression it is) 5.25
Tap water PH of 8: mash PH of 5.26
Tap water PH of 8.5: mash PH of 5.26

So even if the new water report comes back different, will it really make that much of a difference to completely screw up the mash’s ability to convert?

Obviously there are other components to the water but could they be so significant to cause this?

 

[IslandLizard]

Tap water PH of 6.5: mash PH unaffected
Tap water PH of 7: mash PH unaffected
Tap water PH of 7.5 (what I had initially inputted and am currently under the impression it is) 5.25
Tap water PH of 8: mash PH of 5.26
Tap water PH of 8.5: mash PH of 5.26

So even if the new water report comes back different, will it really make that much of a difference to completely screw up the mash’s ability to convert?

The pH of the tap water means nothing (or very little). It's the alkalinity and dissolved minerals that drive the pH, and more so, the resistance to change the pH.

You can call your water company, ask for quality control. They can tell you about their water sources, and have the daily mineral content and alkalinity for you. As well as changes in them with the seasons or weather events (droughts, heavy rainfall, winter road runoff, etc.).

 

[IslandLizard]

If your water content fluctuates much or makes it totally useless for brewing at times, but unknown to you, do what @Bobby_M did, get yourself a small RO system, for around $100. That would be my choice and preference.

Russ from @Buckeye_Hydro is a forum sponsor, he can set you up.

 

[Bobby_M]

Not at all. I'm not in full defensive position as I'm just as interested in figuring it out as you are. Mash test result was good. 1.055 OG with 1 pound in 2 liters of water.

Here's a very key question. Did you measure your mash pH with 90mL of phosphoric added or did you trust it based on previous calculations/results?

The reason I ask is that I just received a phone call (I mean literally as I typed the first sentence above) from LD Carlson telling me that I should discard the bottles of phosphoric that I got on my last order because it had a higher concentration than 10% as labelled. I didn't think to ask them what the actual concentration was and then I keep getting their voice mailbox. Low and behold, I looked it up and you got one of those bottles from me. I will find out what the concentration actually is but you probably had a mash pH of 1 or something goofy like that. 90mL even at 20% (double) your mash would have been 4.49. I know phosphoric is available in 75 and even 85% concentrations and if that's the case, the pH would be REALLY low.

I'm going to make LD replace the phosphoric and grains. I'll get your last two orders credited right away.

 

[HopsAreGood]

If your water content fluctuates much or makes it totally useless for brewing at times, but unknown to you, do what @Bobby_M did, get yourself a small RO system, for around $100. That would be my choice and preference.

Russ from @Buckeye_Hydro is a forum sponsor, he can set you up.

It’s certainly an option. As I’ve said repeatedly though this is never been an issue before and I’ve brewed a lot of beer. The make up of my tapwater from the original ward labs report I got is actually really really good. Definitely looking forward to seeing what the next report says.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Not at all. I'm not in full defensive position as I'm just as interested in figuring it out as you are. Mash test result was good. 1.055 OG with 1 pound in 2 liters of water.

Here's a very key question. Did you measure your mash pH with 90mL of phosphoric added or did you trust it based on previous calculations/results?

The reason I ask is that I just received a phone call (I mean literally as I typed the first sentence above) from LD Carlson telling me that I should discard the bottles of phosphoric that I got on my last order because it had a higher concentration than 10% as labelled. I didn't think to ask them what the actual concentration was and then I keep getting their voice mailbox. Low and behold, I looked it up and you got one of those bottles from me. I will find out what the concentration actually is but you probably had a mash pH of 1 or something goofy like that. 90mL even at 20% (double) your mash would have been 4.49. I know phosphoric is available in 75 and even 85% concentrations and if that's the case, the pH would be REALLY low.

I'm going to make LD replace the phosphoric and grains. I'll get your last two orders credited right away.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner. The last two batches in question both used that bottle that I purchased with the first bag of grains. I ran out of my previous bottle and purchased a new one and it has only been used on these two batches. I personally do not measure my pH… I simply trust the calculations because they’ve always been accurate enough, and like I said I’ve never had any problems. It’s 100% the phosphoric acid.

 

[IslandLizard]

I just received a phone call (I mean literally as I typed the first sentence above) from LD Carlson telling me that I should discard the bottles of phosphoric that I got on my last order because it had a higher concentration than 10% as labelled. [...]

Ouch!!!
That could very well be the monkeywrench we've been looking for!

If it's 85% Phosphoric Acid, it would be syrupy, similar to Starsan concentrate (before dilution).
A 10% solution would be watery.

 

[doug293cz]

If it is the overly concentrated phosphoric acid, it would be interesting to know what the mash pH actually was. This would give us a data point about what pH level will almost completely shut down conversion.

Brew on

 

[Gusso]

After a second look I guess I don't see a lot of flaked grains but I still think you could be dealing with an over milled situation.

I really doubt that. I mill my grains finer in my BIAB. I never have anything near to what he described

 

[DavidWood2115]

If it is the overly concentrated phosphoric acid, it would be interesting to know what the mash pH actually was. This would give us a data point about what pH level will almost completely shut down conversion.

Dropping the mash pH to 4.5 (using 20% phosphoric acid) is unlikely to have stopped the mash, as a Brülosophy xBmt showed that tasters couldn't tell the difference between beers with a 4.45 pH and a 5.33 pH mash, respectively (Water Chemistry: Evaluating The Impact Of Low Mash pH | exBEERiment Results!).

On the other hand, if it was 85% phosphoric acid, which is apparently the most commonly found lab concentration, that would push the mash pH down around 2.8 (according to my quick estimate using a mash calculator). That is almost as acidic as Coca-Cola, so wouldn't be surprised if it mucked up the mash.

 

[DuncB]

Very interesting the mash hasn't thickened more but the plot has.
Can you stick your pH meter in that old ball of gloop on your lawn?

I sort of hinted that I tend to taste the grains after sparging ( you possibly don't sparge and couldn't sparge that lot), you would have noticed that it was nothing like your normal grain post mash and drain. I also tend to dry some of my used grains for adding to porridge so might have noticed that way if I could have got a lump or two to dry.

On the bright side you have a very large supply of phosphoric acid once diluted down or compensated in your calculator.

 

[Dgallo]

I’ve really enjoyed reading this thread. Thank you to all that included their expertise and experience. Really interested in the final answer from LD Carlson

 

[DuncB]

It was as simple as tracking down the unknown unknown. Salient to realise that all is not as it seems.