Bad News Brewery - Control Panel

[BadNewsBrewery]

I wouldn't scrap the PIDs, I'd just use the non-timer version. I suppose keeping the alarm relays is fine and using them just as high-temp alarms. It would be much simpler, and would maintain symmetry.

As for the wiring diagram, I know there's a full-size one somewhere in this thread, unless P-J un-linked it from his website. I have a full size one at work if you can't find it on here.

 

[P-J]

I wouldn't scrap the PIDs, I'd just use the non-timer version. I suppose keeping the alarm relays is fine and using them just as high-temp alarms. It would be much simpler, and would maintain symmetry.

As for the wiring diagram, I know there's a full-size one somewhere in this thread, unless P-J un-linked it from his website. I have a full size one at work if you can't find it on here.

The diagram is still there. I've not taken anything down and will not do that...

It is located in post #20 of this thread (& now here):

You are welcome.

I just noticed in your parts layout that you are going to use a key switch for your mains power. I revised the diagram to show that. (With a new drawing name.) You show a lot of other switches on top you controller box but I don't have a clue what your intent is with them.

As always - Click on the image to see (and save) a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")




P-J

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

And like the White Knight that he is, P-J swoops in and makes everything OK.

 

[waffle418]

I wouldn't scrap the PIDs, I'd just use the non-timer version. I suppose keeping the alarm relays is fine and using them just as high-temp alarms. It would be much simpler, and would maintain symmetry.

As for the wiring diagram, I know there's a full-size one somewhere in this thread, unless P-J un-linked it from his website. I have a full size one at work if you can't find it on here.

Oh no, you misunderstood me. I have EVERY intention of using PIDs, however I'm thinking that 3 SYL-2352 would be the way I'd go rather than the 2 2451. Is that what you meant about not having the timer?

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Oh no, you misunderstood me. I have EVERY intention of using PIDs, however I'm thinking that 3 SYL-2352 would be the way I'd go rather than the 2 2451. Is that what you meant about not having the timer?

Bingo! :rockin:

 

[waffle418]

Bingo! :rockin:

Nice! Now I know what I'll be spending all day at work doing.... filling in the parts list with links

 

[theknub]

what else is work good for?

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Nice! Now I know what I'll be spending all day at work doing.... filling in the parts list with links

You should post it back to the discussion when you're done - maybe it'll help someone else down the line. And don't hesitate to ask if you run into any hiccups.

what else is work good for?

That's why I only post during the week - weekends are too busy for HBT!

 

[waffle418]

You should post it back to the discussion when you're done - maybe it'll help someone else down the line. And don't hesitate to ask if you run into any hiccups.



That's why I only post during the week - weekends are too busy for HBT!

Oh I plan on posting it back once I link it up, although, mine is going a little different... I have the electrician buddy coming over Thursday to game plan a subpanel in the garage with the wife's blessing!!! 100 amps should go a long way to me never leaving my garage again

 

[P-J]

Oh no, you misunderstood me. I have EVERY intention of using PIDs, however I'm thinking that 3 SYL-2352 would be the way I'd go rather than the 2 2451. Is that what you meant about not having the timer?

I revised the drawing to show all SYL-2352 PIDs. I hope this helps some in your adventure.

As always - Click on the image to see (and save) a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



P-J

 

[brewmcq]

And P-J is still cranking out drawings...

 

[waffle418]

And P-J is still cranking out drawings...

+1 ... you think my office is going to start looking at me funny for printing off all these electrical drawings? (Btw... I work as an accountant at a Real Estate Company )

 

[Carlscan26]

I revised the drawing to show all SYL-2352 PIDs. I hope this helps some in your adventure.

As always - Click on the image to see (and save) a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



P-J

What's the point of the PID for the MLT? There's nothing being controlled by that PID...wouldn't a thermometer do the same thing? Or is the goal to hook one of the pumps up on a relay and circulate through a herms loop in the HLT, etc?

 

[waffle418]

What's the point of the PID for the MLT? There's nothing being controlled by that PID...wouldn't a thermometer do the same thing? Or is the goal to hook one of the pumps up on a relay and circulate through a herms loop in the HLT, etc?

I'll be using it as a sophisticated thermometer that sets off an alarm if temp falls below a certain degree.... so yes you're absolutely correct, a thermometer WOULD work, but I won't be watching the temp constantly and the PID will do it for me.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

What's the point of the PID for the MLT? There's nothing being controlled by that PID...wouldn't a thermometer do the same thing? Or is the goal to hook one of the pumps up on a relay and circulate through a herms loop in the HLT, etc?

It only acts as a thermometer. It doesn't control anything. I used a PID for symmetry.

 

[Carlscan26]

Doesn't auber make some thermometers with alarms with the same DIN size?

Anyway, how are you going to maintain mash temps then? Manual recirculation control?

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

I'm not sure if they do or don't make similar sized / style thermometers. For me, the cost of the PID was relatively low and I enjoy knowing that it looks the exact same (outside and inside) as the others - easier to use, easier to wire, and easier to order vs. looking up additional parts.

When I mash, the HLT PID is set to my desired temperature (plus any offsets that I need to account for heatloss) and my pump is run non-stop. I may adjust the pump discharge valve to get the flow I want from time to time, but really there's no change. The wort pumps through the heat exchange coil in the HLT, thus heating the wort, and all is good.

-Kevin

 

[Carlscan26]

Thanks for the explanation Kevin. I don't usually pay much attention to the wiring diagrams as building one if these isn't in my future yet. So I always assumed the MLT controller was being used to control the pump on/off.

Thanks!

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

I suppose you could do that, but you'd run into some issues. Primarily, you're changing two variables (Pump on/off and HLT element on/off) without the PIDs actually talking. So while one PID is trying to adjust the mash temperature by changing the pump run status, the other is trying to change the mash temperature by heating up the HLT. Odds are neither would actually work, the PIDs would never get good values during an auto-tune, and the whole thing would become hugely complicated and frustrating. Changing one variable at a time is the way to go.

 

[Carlscan26]

I suppose you could do that, but you'd run into some issues. Primarily, you're changing two variables (Pump on/off and HLT element on/off) without the PIDs actually talking. So while one PID is trying to adjust the mash temperature by changing the pump run status, the other is trying to change the mash temperature by heating up the HLT. Odds are neither would actually work, the PIDs would never get good values during an auto-tune, and the whole thing would become hugely complicated and frustrating. Changing one variable at a time is the way to go.

I could be wrong but that's what I thought the Morebeer system does albeit without PIDs.

I could see autotune having issues. I was thinking that essentially the HL PID would keep that water constant as the recirculation from the MLT pulls heat out if it. The MLT would adjust as needed. You wouldn't need to maintain the HLT at the mash temp + offset. You could put it at your sparge temp for example and mash out quickly without having to wait for the HLT to ramp up.

I've been mainly focused on rims style setups - just now looking into HEX method. Thanks for explaining it to me.

 

[Eighty2Fifty1]

Is there a reason you used a 15A CB to power the pumps, relays and electronics? I noticed the 5A protection for the PID's, but wouldn't 10A instead of 15 be better? I think normal Chugger/March pumps draw less than 2A, guessing the total draw on that leg under 5, definitely under 10. Or is that just the same pic P-J uses in all his schematics?

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

If you can find a 10A single pole DIN breaker, then go for it. My source only had 15A. Looks like they now offer a 6A option, too. I bought my breakers from ebrewsupply.com - but really, the breaker is only protecting the wiring, so by going with a 15A breaker it allowed me to go down in wire size. I suppose a 10A would have worked, but there's no harm in going with a 15A.

-Kevin

 

[theichthus]

I would really like to make my own schematic, but MS Paint makes me drink too much. What software does P-J use to draw his sweet plans? Anyone know? How about you Kevin? I have resorted to pen and paper, but I would prefer to make a digital version. Thanks guys.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

That's a great question. I have no idea what P-J uses. I know he's compiled quite the cache of PIDs and terminals and other graphics to use, but whether he uses a specific program for doing diagrams (I checked a few out and they all confused me more than needed) or maybe he puts in the time on MS Paint or something else.

Me - I used P-J's diagram and modified it in MS Paint, and then he used his P-J magic to make it look better.

Pen and paper is better than nothing for a start, that's for sure!

 

[theichthus]

Thanks for the quick response, and also for demonstrating that I can run my neutral through my contactor. I am going to try making a diagram in GIMP. Also, thanks for running your neutral through your contactor. I bought a 3 pole contactor because it was cheaper and just dont't like the look of that unused pole. I just wasn't sure running the neutral through it was legit.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

I don't do it any more, because my 3 pole contactor was a POS and got sent back. There's no reason I can think of why running Neutral through the contactor would be an issue. Definitely don't run ground through it, you don't want to break your path to ground in case something goes south in the panel.

 

[jeffmeh]

I don't do it any more, because my 3 pole contactor was a POS and got sent back. There's no reason I can think of why running Neutral through the contactor would be an issue. Definitely don't run ground through it, you don't want to break your path to ground in case something goes south in the panel.

Is there really any advantage to it, assuming that the contactor is normally open for both hot leads where they enter the panel? Perhaps I'm missing something.

 

[theichthus]

The only advantage for me is aesthetics... I needed a 60 amp contactor and they were mostly all designed for 3 phase. I knew it would suffice and that I could use only 2 poles, but I like the look of three 4AWG wires leading into it.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Is there really any advantage to it, assuming that the contactor is normally open for both hot leads where they enter the panel? Perhaps I'm missing something.

No advantage I can think of, other than the "hey, I have 3 terminals... why not use them all" mindset.

 

[decoleur]

I am just about to start a build that looks like it will be based upon this thread.
Your process and troubleshooting have been very informative.
I appreciate the iterations that this thread has gone through. Did you ever post a link to the revised 2352 version with the safe start interlock included?
Also if there were any changes you would make what would they be?

Thanks and enjoy your beer!