Backyard Brew Shed / Bar

[RufusBrewer]

The strongest card you can play is "grandfathered in." I do not know if that is an option for you. But see if you can play it, do. See if you can submit plans to different people, one might approve when another will reject.

Also an experienced contractor is a good person to have in your corner.

Anyway you can get this categories as "not permanent." Sometimes that can make A difference.

 

[Steven Sinclair]

Yeah...the entire pitch to the "powers that be" was focused on the word, "TEMPORARY," but was still denied. Is it worth it to pursue legally or should I just "build it and they will come" and just hope they'll never come?

 

[RufusBrewer]

What was the issue? I am going to guess adding electric trial and plumbing. Are you allowed to build mother-in-law house?

I feel for you. You got the will, the money, the space and wife's approval. All to be shot down by some bureaucratic policy. I need to stop before I go off on one of my political rants.

 

[Steven Sinclair]

Political rants are pretty much the norm nowadays, right?



Aside from that, there are 2 types of buildings I am "authorized" to build. One requires a full-time resident to actually live within, the other does not. However, neither of which allow for floor drains, multi-compartment sinks, or exhaust fans.

What the what? Talk about a lose-lose situation.

Jeez.

Might just be time to move.

 

[Toxxyc]

OK so I'm going to ask the question, because it's being done left-right-and-centre over here in South Africa where I stay anyway - what's stopping you from just doing it? Who's going to come inspect your property to see if you're up to code (unless obviously you sell the place or something like that)?

The only thing to worry about is possible code violations when something happens to your main house, like a fire, and if it'll prevent insurance from paying out.

 

[RufusBrewer]

If what is between you and a brewing area is no floor drain, sink design and exhaust fan, then build them per the code. Might not be perfect, but it is better than nothing.

Keep something hidden in your back pocket to get around the fan thing. Get final inspection, and then install then the fan. Might be a bit of a kludge, but what ever it takes.

 

[superiorsat]

Ok. Ran into a slight bump in the road. Anyone out there have experience in "battling" with their local municipalities as pertains to variances in building code?

Yeah I ran into a wall when I wanted to build mine. Had to pay $100 for a variance board meeting to see if I could build larger than 12'x18' only to be shot down . Asked for 24'x24' after some back and fourth they said no on to the next item on the agenda. I was like how about 14'x24' and they said you had your chance if you want to try again come back next month and pay again which I did. This time I went in with no size listed and told them I wasn't leaving until they could agree on a size I could get that was larger than 12'x 18'. Came up with 14' x 24'. Poured my concrete and a month later the city changed the ordinance due to me ruffling so many feathers over the issue. Now I could put in a building as large as 70 percent of my back yard but already had my concrete poured so I just said to heck with it I'll keep what I got. Build it to code and leave a way to retro fit it later. Run plumbing from the house put a single cheap plastic wash tub sink in that can be swapped later. Leave a capped off trap under the floor where you can easily remove a tile or two and cut through the OSB to access or already have a cut out that can be unscrewed. Exhaust fans can be installed easily enough after the fact or get a steam condenser. A guy could always put in an attic fan if you we looking to vent a small amount of moisture on a not daily basis which is basically what I do in the summer. I pull AC in from 2 windows and have a home rigged attic fan. I have a steam condenser but basically don't use it and I have never developed a mold situation or anything in my attic( 6+ years ). Winter is different I have a home made twin turbine window fan I use and just open the window on the opposite side to create air flow. My garage is all OSB inside and can handle some moisture. When done I run the dehumidifier to just take the dampness out of the air. They are aware of what you want to do in the backyard so I would just factor in that the city inspector might check in on your project. After a bit of time make your adjustments.

 

[matt_m]

We had a really tight bathroom like that in our first house and it was really uncomfortable especially for guests who had to figure out where to stand to not get caught between the toilet and the door. Our current house has a pretty tight half bath but with a pocket door and its a lot more comfortable except for a small percentage of guests who can't figure out how to use the door.

 

[Deadalus]

Political rants are pretty much the norm nowadays, right?



Aside from that, there are 2 types of buildings I am "authorized" to build. One requires a full-time resident to actually live within, the other does not. However, neither of which allow for floor drains, multi-compartment sinks, or exhaust fans.

What the what? Talk about a lose-lose situation.

Jeez.

Might just be time to move.

What are the two types of authorized buildings? I'm trying to understand why those 3 particular features are prohibited.

 

[Deadalus]

Poking around, I'm guessing your brew area is being classified as a kitchen pushing you towards classification as a dwelling unit? (Preparing food.) With the half bath potentially a complication? Maybe classed either as second dwelling unit and guest house but not as a workshop or misc. structure. Even though you have no plans to use it for a dwelling it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck I mean dwelling?

Further guesses-The multicompartment sink is indicative of food preparation, perhaps the exhaust as well. Still not sure about the floor drain hangup other than they typically fill up. Both mine in my 1940s house are blocked.

 

[Steven Sinclair]

What are the two types of authorized buildings? I'm trying to understand why those 3 particular features are prohibited.

First rule, above all others, floor drains are simply not allowed in any type of residential structure. Aside from that, the two types of structures are...

Accessory Dwelling Unit (ADU)
- Must be used as dwelling
- Full bath allowed
- Only single basin sink allowed
- Sink basin cannot exceed 24-inches
- Exhaust fans not allowed
- 240v power not allowed

Accessory Structure (AS)
- Cannot be used as dwelling
- Half bath or wet bar allowed if owner attests structure will not be used as dwelling
- Only one sink allowed (sink in half bath counts)
- Only single basin sink allowed
- Sink basin cannot exceed 24-inches
- Kitchen not allowed
- Kitchen appliances not allowed
- Exhaust fans not allowed
- 240v power not allowed

There are many more rules, but these are the primary sticking points.

 

[Deadalus]

Your new hobby is tye-dying. Rough the brew space in as a laundry room. You'd need to stick to a 30 amp plug for the "dryer". Put in the correct size wire for 50 amps if you want. No foul there. Dryer needs an exhaust. Include a utility sink. No longer a kitchen, a 1/2 bath not typically a problem except perhaps the interior door.

 

[Deadalus]

We posted at the same time. Wow that's awful strict, only those two types...bummer.

 

[Deadalus]

How about a square footage minimum size to apply the rules? Is 12x12 or under subject to permitting?

 

[Steven Sinclair]

Wow that's awful strict, only those two types...bummer.

Yes, very strict. Just don't understand the level of unreasonableness they choose to embrace.

How about a square footage minimum size to apply the rules? Is 12x12 or under subject to permitting?

I could actually build a structure of any reasonable size. The permits come into play when the structure is larger than 200 sqft and/or will have power/water/sewer connections.

 

[Deadalus]

Yeah, the 240 restriction precludes various workshop scenarios, the exhaust too. People need hobbies!

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Wire in the 50 amp circuit, put in a standard outlet and a 110 breaker, after inspection, swap out the breaker and outlet. Done.

 

[superiorsat]

Thinking your dream of having a brewpub shed in Mother Russia is not realistic unless you bend the rules and once built you retro fit what you want when they are not looking.

 

[tracer bullet]

Agreed, I'd consider installing what is allowed and making that official, even going so far as to closing a permit that way. Pretend you'll stow lawn equipment and chairs in it. Later on, start a small DIY project.

It's against the rules of course, freely admitting that. But I think they are written around something that you are not going for. Your relationship with your neighbors will go a long ways as well, be sure there's no chance of someone complaining later.

No floor drain is OK, no vent is OK, the sink can be added later without a ton of work and same for the wiring, depending of course as mentioned what's run originally. Do keep in mind any inspections will potentially realize a plan to cheat i.e. on the wiring.

 

[Jhedrick83]

Ask them if you can't have a floor drain or a sink basin bigger than 24" how will you clean up all the blood?

In all seriousness, why don't you just put in a plywood counter top and set your sink in that, less than 24" bowl obviously. Once inspection has come and gone, get a real counter top and the size sink you want.

Is your floor poured concrete or framed wood? If it is poured concrete, could you have your contractor pour it with the necessary slope for the drain and then pour the middle section (where the drain would go) separately so that after inspection it is easily removed and a floor drain installed? If it is wood, you could go ahead and put in the floor drain and then just cover it with flooring that you can easily come remove later?

For your exhaust fan issue, can you put in a "Skylight" with a diameter roughly the same as the exhaust duct? Then, post inspection swap it for an exhaust fan.

As for the 240v issue, you could ask your contractor to run 110 to the area you need in a conduit in case you need to run different wires for the 240v?

 

[Steven Sinclair]

Yeah. All good ideas, guyz. Guess I just have to embrace "bending" the rules to make this work. Thanx again for all the suggestions!

 

[Deadalus]

I'd probably go the build it to their permitting rules and alter the electrical and sink afterwards route myself, even the exhaust. Those are easy removals in my opinion.

However, I can maybe think of one or two possibilities that could be within the rules.

1. You may be able to run a 240v RV line to a box located outside. Like an outdoor plug, basically an RV post like a campground. The service to the post is 240v but I think interior wise the RV splits the two legs of the line. I am not completely sure as I have a travel trailer which is only 30amps. The big rigs are different. Then you could hop an extension cord in some fashion to your panel.. Consider doing that when you run the power for the building. In other words, is a 240v outdoor plug permissible?

You could run an extension cord from the house itself but that would be unsightly.

2. You could go with the outdoor sink station I mentioned, move it behind the building, perhaps with its own kiosk type roof. Run short water lines to an outdoor faucet, then hoses. A sink can indirectly drain into a floor drain, maybe an outdoor drain is technically allowed.

These are really overbearing rules though. WTF!? I'd really appreciate a 2-3 compartment sink to wash my garden produce.

 

[Steven Sinclair]

These are really overbearing rules though. WTF!? I'd really appreciate a 2-3 compartment sink to wash my garden produce.

Yes, especially since I had already purchased the 3 basin stainless steel sink...and 36 inch stainless steel exhaust hood...and toilet and sink for the half bath...
Jeez.
Well, got a good deal on 'em so I guess it's not that bad, but not being able to use them really bites!

 

[shoengine]

Getting around the 240v thing is easy. Just takes two extra conductors you won't use after inspection. I'd stick a single sub-24in sink and swap it out after. The drain is a tough one. I like the idea presented earlier about having two separate pours.

 

[superiorsat]

This is being over complicated. Build it basic as an outdoor lawn and garden shed. Once all the dust and suspicion settles make it whatever you want. If you have a permit pulled then you know an inspector is likely to stick his nose into things to see what is going on. At some point they are going to move on and whatever you want to do will go unnoticed. I keep thinking I'm going to drill a secret well so I can stop paying for water for my brewery. I know for sure ( 99.9999999999999999 percent )no one is ever coming to look at my back garage.

 

[Deric]

I have a close friend who works in permitting. Whenever I ask him what I can legally do/build on my property he always replies the same - "You can do whatever the f*$k you want to until the neighbors complain. Or you want to sell your house".

Build it to code and leave a way to retro fit it later.

This is what he tells actual customers.

 

[shoengine]

When I did my 70ish K kitchen remodel, I got that permitted. When I added some tandem breakers, resurfaced the floor, added a drain and started brewing in the garage, I did not permit any of that because it doesn't affect my resale value.

And if my garage burns down, that just makes room for a better garage!

 

[Wigglebutts Brewery]

I've been in your shoes. A while back I got the green light for a workshop (20x22)! The zoning and neighbors made the process painful. I couldn't have a garage door because you could only have 24 linear feet of garage doors and we had an 18 footer upfront??!! I had a budget garage Co build the shell totally permitted with inspector close out with a full header. Over time I've added the 100A 240V branch, insulation, drywall, utility sink (supply is RV hose from house sigot to sigot on shop, works great year round), grey waste drain to gravel pad, instant HW heater, shopstyle electric overhead heater, 10x14 awning, cable/internet with plans for a 4 panel (2') bifold door under that header out to the gravel pad/awning area. It's evolving from workshop when we remodeled kitchen/bathrooms to combo workshop/brewery with the future taproom/brewery. Time is the key!

 

[Phischy]

The big issue is your neighbors, have you spoken to them? People get really upset, esp if you have an HOA. Seems that you simply say you're building for your hobby (soap making/tie dye), make sure it looks really nice. If it's not ghetto then you'll be ok, and it doesn't sound like it will be.

Electricity can be retro fitted later. Your sink issue, just make sure you have a wet wall between where you want your 3 basin and where the bathroom is, this way you can open the wall and will have direct access to H/C and drain. Really not much of a problem. Run a 20A 11V out for all your lights/outlets so it'll pass inspection, then after inspection, run your 240V and any extra 110V you need to a wall mounted sub panel, then run all your electrical through conduit outside the wall. Unfortunately, this isn't the pretty/fully finished version (rattle can paint the conduit so it looks interesting), however, when you go to sell the home, you can kill the extra circuits, remove everything proud of the walls and be to code. Then patch the walls, and the same goes for the 3 basin sink.

The floor drain is a problem and may be something you have to give up. Which totally sucks, but if that's the cost of getting it done, that's the way to do it.

Depending on your neighbors, the AC units for both the building and the cold room may be a problem. If they see/hear it that may cause you a headache, a mini-split will keep the profile lower but is more expensive. Same with the exhaust fan, you can add later.

I'd say the biggest thing is to know the inspection schedule. And lastly, your property taxing agency will want a piece of this too. So find out when they will come out to value it or what that process is before you start adding improvements inside and out.

 

[MaxStout]

I built a 10 x 20 outbuilding about 15 years ago for a wood shop. Stick framing on a poured concrete slab. No running water but I did run a 60A feeder to a subpanel in the shed. Nice to have 240V.

Be careful with location, make sure it doesn't overlap any drainage or utility easements. Some communities have height restrictions for outbuildings (mine limits to 15' above average terrain).

Hard plumbing for sink and toilet means sewer connections. If you decide to forego the those, you can always run a garden hose for cooling water and rent a porta-potty for events. If you use a hose, you could run the gray water into a barrel outside and use it later for watering your garden. A sink can be set up outside, connected to a hose. I have one next to our garden bench we use, except in winter. It's connected to the hose bib with a length of garden hose. Fugly as sin, but it works.

Like others said, pull the proper permits. Not just in case a neighbor rats you out, but also in case of a fire or storm damage. Insurance may refuse coverage if it wasn't permitted. Having no permits may put a cloud over the property's title should you ever sell it. And check with neighbors. Better to grease the rails now, than to get nuisance complaints from them later. The "easier to get forgiveness than permission" doesn't work here.

Contact your homeowner's insurance, make sure the building is added to your policy.

What at first seems like a straightforward project ends up having lots of moving parts. Sounds like a fun project--good luck!