Back Sweetening

[Bryan19836]

Hi all,

I'm on batch#2 of my cider-making saga. Batch #1 was very dry, because who needs sugar? Amiright?!

No...of course it needs sugar. We live in Canada and the USA (mostly), and sugar is one of our 4 food groups; the others being butter, cheese, and gravy.

Anyway I'm looking to back sweeten my cider [using more apple juice], immediately prior to bottling.

Does anyone have a recommended ratio of cider-to-juice?

 

[barnaclebob]

Well if you backsweeten it will just ferment and you may get bottle bombs if you add to many sugars.

 

[Maylar]

It's all subjective and personal taste. You have to decide for yourself how sweet you want it.

 

[klowneyy]

Make sure to use splenda or lactose as your back sweetener otherwise you will just add more food for the yeast and have them explode on you and no one wants bottle bombs. As for ratio that's all up to you

 

[Bryan19836]

I think I've solved the bottle-bomb issue, as I added potassium metabisulphate before the final racking stage.

All the yeasties should be long dead at this stage.



*racking is the stage when you let the cider sit for a while until it goes clear, yea?

 

[klowneyy]

Racking is the moving of the liquids to other vessel's. So you went with a non carbonated cider? I always carb mine.

 

[Yooper]

I think I've solved the bottle-bomb issue, as I added potassium metabisulphate before the final racking stage.

All the yeasties should be long dead at this stage.



*racking is the stage when you let the cider sit for a while until it goes clear, yea?

Potassium metabisulfite doesn't kill yeast- so you definitely don't want to plan on them being "long dead" at this stage! If you add sugar, they will come out of dormancy real quick.

K-meta is used primarily by winemakers as an antioxidant, and doesn't kill yeast.

 

[Bryan19836]

Potassium metabisulfite doesn't kill yeast- so you definitely don't want to plan on them being "long dead" at this stage! If you add sugar, they will come out of dormancy real quick.

K-meta is used primarily by winemakers as an antioxidant, and doesn't kill yeast.

soooo...what would you recommend to kill the yeasties?

 

[Yooper]

soooo...what would you recommend to kill the yeasties?

Nothing really will kill the yeast, except pasteurization. If you want to bottle and assure no fermentation restarts, potassium sorbate is generally used. It doesn't kill yeast, but inhibits yeast reproduction so in a finished and clear cider with no lees in the bottom (which is full of yeast), it can keep fermentation from restarting, usually. After it sits a few days, the cider can be sweetened. After a few more days, it can be safely bottled.

Keep in mind that if you inhibit the yeast, bottle carbing is not possible. It's either sweeten OR carbonate, but not both.

 

[klowneyy]

Best way to kill the yeast is to pasteurize it on the stove top. Move to a kettle or big enough pot if you have one put your cider in it and heat to 160f for 20 mins. Than I would toss into my bottling bucket or whatever you use to bottle while its hot to better make sure nothing else gets in. white food grade buckets can stand heat up to 190f let it cool after sealing it to room temp than bottle.

Warning any higher than 170f you run the risk of burning off the alcohol!

You can always back sweeten with non fermentable sugars like splenda or lactose. I am making a chai cider right now that I am using 1/2 lb of lactose

 

[Sailingeric]

Pasteurize or think of kegging in the future. The cold temp of a kegarator will stop fermentation.

 

[klowneyy]

Cold temp from a fridge will not stop fermentation at all. Just slow it down. When people ferment at colder temps its called lagering. Kegs are rated for like 300 psi best bet is to use a keg if you fear bottle bombs. But if you are trying to kill the yeast kegging wouldn't help you there. You can always filter out your yeast with a filter than bottle or pasteurize on the stove top

 

[stella_tigre]

I have a half gallon of apple cider "experiment" in the fridge, it's been fermenting and changing to vinegar very slowly, at 35 deg F. I would have tossed it but it smells pretty good. Figure I'll use it for cooking when it gets done.

 

[klowneyy]

I have a half gallon of apple cider "experiment" in the fridge, it's been fermenting and changing to vinegar very slowly, at 35 deg F. I would have tossed it but it smells pretty good. Figure I'll use it for cooking when it gets done.

Most likely brettanomyces from the apple/apple juice took over your saccharomyces that you pitched in

 

[stella_tigre]

Oh it didn't have any sacc pitched. I had thawed AJC that we used for back sweetening at serving (not everyone likes dry carbed cider, but we do.) There was a little left that started to bubble and smell nice, so I put that into a open bottle of juice that I used to top off a batch. It's proceeded to ferment but has a vinegery thing going too, I know my fridge is rife with acetobacteria...

But all of this has been in the fridge, very slowly. I vent the bottle every few days so it doesn't explode and make a mess!

 

[Maylar]

With ale yeasts like Nottingham and S-04 I put my carbed bottles in the 40° fridge and they stop building pressure. Have had them for over a month with no issues.

 

[klowneyy]

Oh it didn't have any sacc pitched. I had thawed AJC that we used for back sweetening at serving (not everyone likes dry carbed cider, but we do.) There was a little left that started to bubble and smell nice, so I put that into a open bottle of juice that I used to top off a batch. It's proceeded to ferment but has a vinegery thing going too, I know my fridge is rife with acetobacteria...

But all of this has been in the fridge, very slowly. I vent the bottle every few days so it doesn't explode and make a mess!

Venting is a good thing to do if you are making apple vinigar. Oxygen is a big help to that vinigar,aceotactor, or Brett smell taste. There could of been yeast on the apple skins like Brett witch is most commonly found on the outer layer of fruits and isn't really airborne. So if you got non pasteurize apple juice that's most likely your answer to where the yeast came from probably got a non saccamyces/wild yeast.

 

[Beesnbeer]

I have been bottling my cider when it reaches 1.010. I transfer to the bottling bucket and add about 3/4 cup of brown sugar and then bottle. After about 6 hours in the bottle, I pasteurize and it comes out sweet and sparkling. Last batch carbed up for about 12 hours due to time constraints and was more fizzy than I like.

 

[TheMarkWhite]

I have been bottling my cider when it reaches 1.010. I transfer to the bottling bucket and add about 3/4 cup of brown sugar and then bottle. After about 6 hours in the bottle, I pasteurize and it comes out sweet and sparkling. Last batch carbed up for about 12 hours due to time constraints and was more fizzy than I like.

What batch size do you usually have to warrant the 3/4 cup? How many batches have you completed like this?

 

[Beesnbeer]

I've done four 3 gallon batches this way. Comes out pretty good, but the pasteurization is kind of a pain. I'll probably just ferment dry next time, then bottle carb and sweeten in the glass if I want a sweet beverage.

 

[MarkKF]

6 hours? How long has your cider been at final S.G.? Cuz I usually age mine 6 mos. and it takes a couple of weeks to carb.

 

[Beesnbeer]

This cider is still actively fermenting when I bottle, so doesn't take long to generate a fair amount of carbonation. I realize this is not a typical way of brewing anything, but it was how I started out, and it worked and I found it enjoyable. After a couple years of brewing and learning new and different ways of doing things, I may do it differently next time.

 

[TheMarkWhite]

So is your cider clear? Or do you still have haze? How long do you bottle after pitching?

 

[Beesnbeer]

After pasteurization, the cider falls quite clear. As I said in my original post, I bottle when the gravity hits 1.010. The time from pitch to bottle varies depending on the yeast I use. My notes show using Lalvin 71b took about 3 days to go from 1.050 to 1.010. I've also noted that flavor definitely improves at about the 6 week mark. It's certainly drinkable earlier, but the brown sugar and apple flavors seem to meld over time.

 

[CMcPherson]

Oh it didn't have any sacc pitched. I had thawed AJC that we used for back sweetening at serving (not everyone likes dry carbed cider, but we do.) There was a little left that started to bubble and smell nice, so I put that into a open bottle of juice that I used to top off a batch. It's proceeded to ferment but has a vinegery thing going too, I know my fridge is rife with acetobacteria...

But all of this has been in the fridge, very slowly. I vent the bottle every few days so it doesn't explode and make a mess!

So sweetening at serving would be a much more logical time to add sugar then?
I wouldn't have to worry about halting the yeast or making a mess.
The carbonation doesn't hold up to adding juice does it?
What about adding Sprite or Ginger Ale at service? Carb and sweet at the same time. Or is that too pedestrian?

 

[Sailingeric]

I just tapped my keg of hard cider made with a couple cups of brown sugar that was fermented with WLP002 English ale yeast and due to its lower attenuation it came out yummy and just sweet enough with out having to back sweeten. I say give it try next time.

 

[stella_tigre]

We have sweetened cider at serving time with FAJC (especially if cider was made from bottled juice to start with) or with a strong simple syrup. It's just a spoonful or two. Our cider is usually pretty fizzy and dry in the bottle. I would NOT put sugar in - the nucleation points and the stirring you have to do to get the sugar dissolved does de-carb it some. (We tried it, as you can guess!)

I have on hand for when the children come club soda, because we are probably going to taste test some of my Joe's mead, which is sweeter and still. I have thought of using Sprite/Sierra Mist for the dry fruity meads and wines, sort of like a wine cooler, but have not tried it. I think the lemon-lime soda would not taste very good with the cider, though, so I stick to the FAJC/simple syrup for the cider. This allows everyone to go as sweet as you like.

Actually I may try a sweet cinnamon caramel syrup at serving for the cider, that would be yummy for the holiday! I think there's a recipe on here for such a thing....added - Dave's caramel apple, the cinnamon dolce syrup but I would add at serving....

 

[Bryan19836]

OK I just wanna make sure I'm clear on things, because I guess I'm not...

Once Racking/Fermentation is complete, and there's no sugar left:

1. add something sweet (more juice, sugar, etc.)
2. let stand for a little while to get some carbonation going
3. pasteurize or otherwise kill off the yeasties
4. bottle

this sounds good to me, but I've got some follow-ups (assuming the above makes sense)

Step 2: how long? Like, is that time dependent? or can I just wing it, because whatev's #YOLO (?)

Step 4: how long do I wait in between pasteurizing and bottling. Since obviously transferring scalding hot cider poses some risks, but letting it cool introduces possible contamination risks.

 

[stella_tigre]

You have to add sugar, bottle, let carb *in the bottle* in that order. It won't carb unless it's contained in a closed container, one designed for the pressure of carbing, like beer, soda, or champagne bottles. Wine bottles need not apply. Pasteurizing is done after bottling, if the cider is to have some sweetness. (You can also add non fermentable sweetners.)

IF the cider was finished fermenting (dry) you can add about 1 oz of additional sugar per gallon at bottling, and it will carb up, but be dry. It is not necessary to pasteurize.

IF you bottle before fermentation is complete (depending on remaining SG) and/or add more than 1 oz or so of sugar, you will need to pasteurize, cold crash, or something to stop the action of the yeast, and leave residual sweetness. Either of these can lead to bottle bombs if done incorrectly so make sure you follow instructions found elsewhere in this forum.

 

[ericbw]

OK I just wanna make sure I'm clear on things, because I guess I'm not...

Once Racking/Fermentation is complete, and there's no sugar left:

1. add something sweet (more juice, sugar, etc.)
2. let stand for a little while to get some carbonation going
3. pasteurize or otherwise kill off the yeasties
4. bottle

this sounds good to me, but I've got some follow-ups (assuming the above makes sense)

Step 2: how long? Like, is that time dependent? or can I just wing it, because whatev's #YOLO (?)

Step 4: how long do I wait in between pasteurizing and bottling. Since obviously transferring scalding hot cider poses some risks, but letting it cool introduces possible contamination risks.

Like Stella said, you have to

1. Add sugar and bottle (this is called priming to get the carbonation)

2. Wait for it to carbonate (this is days or a couple weeks at MOST. Easiest way to keep an eye on it is to bottle one plastic bottle. When that is hard like a new bottle of soda pop, it's carbed).

3. Refrigerate or pasteurize the bottles immediately. Do not wait.

Some will say that heating the cider after fermentation but before bottling could introduce oxygen, leading to some nasty tastes (like port wine).

 

[Bryan19836]

Like Stella said, you have to

1. Add sugar and bottle (this is called priming to get the carbonation)

2. Wait for it to carbonate (this is days or a couple weeks at MOST. Easiest way to keep an eye on it is to bottle one plastic bottle. When that is hard like a new bottle of soda pop, it's carbed).

3. Refrigerate or pasteurize the bottles immediately. Do not wait.

Some will say that heating the cider after fermentation but before bottling could introduce oxygen, leading to some nasty tastes (like port wine).

Hold up...won't subjecting already pressurized bottles to the extreme heat of pasteurization create the bottle-bomb scenario everyone has been warning me about?

 

[ericbw]

Hold up...won't subjecting already pressurized bottles to the extreme heat of pasteurization create the bottle-bomb scenario everyone has been warning me about?

It's not extreme heat. It needs to be at 160f for 15 seconds. That's the temp of the juice in the bottle, not the water in the pot.

And then the pressure goes down when the heat goes off.

You have to be careful, but it's not as dangerous as it sounds. Read the sticky on stove top pasteurization a few times.

 

[Firewalker11]

Since we are talking about back sweetening, I am using stevia dissolved in distilled water and injecting it right into the already carbed keg through the OUT post. The stevia flavor doesn't seem to interfere with the flavor at all, just poured a glass for a BJCP judge yesterday and all she said was that it was still young... The score sheet I insisted she fill out hit 41/50!

Is this bad? Am I a bad person for doing this?

 

[stella_tigre]

Hold up...won't subjecting already pressurized bottles to the extreme heat of pasteurization create the bottle-bomb scenario everyone has been warning me about?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=193295

 

[Maylar]

It's not extreme heat. It needs to be at 160f for 15 seconds. That's the temp of the juice in the bottle, not the water in the pot.

And then the pressure goes down when the heat goes off.

You have to be careful, but it's not as dangerous as it sounds. Read the sticky on stove top pasteurization a few times.

There are caveats however. How safe it is depends on how much carbonation you're starting with and how good your bottles are. I did some experiments a while ago that might be worth a look...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=513435

 

[klowneyy]

Again I don't get why people are going to all of this trouble for back sweetening. Just use non fermentable sugars. I bottled my chai cider 2 days ago. Added 1 lb of lactose tasted amazing. If you want brown sugar use splenda they make a brown sugar and you won't have to worry about bottle bombs. WAY EASIER AND SAFER!

 

[stella_tigre]

Again I don't get why people are going to all of this trouble for back sweetening. Just use non fermentable sugars. I bottled my chai cider 2 days ago. Added 1 lb of lactose tasted amazing. If you want brown sugar use splenda they make a brown sugar and you won't have to worry about bottle bombs. WAY EASIER AND SAFER!

I am hoping to try some lactose or xylitol some day (or use my pears to make perry, which contain some xylitol.) Our kids don't like cider quite as dry as we do. However, some people are lactose-intolerant, and xylitol can have some...laxative effect. And if you truly want to back sweeten using the original juice, rather than adding sugars, and have it carbonated, you will need to either bottle-condition-with-pasteurizing (or putting it on ice - that can be risky) or make it still and keg it.

 

[Firewalker11]

Again I don't get why people are going to all of this trouble for back sweetening. Just use non fermentable sugars. I bottled my chai cider 2 days ago. Added 1 lb of lactose tasted amazing. If you want brown sugar use splenda they make a brown sugar and you won't have to worry about bottle bombs. WAY EASIER AND SAFER!

Stevia is non-fermentible and even the health Nazis cant find any problems with its consumption other than you are still teasing your sweet tooth.

 

[Maylar]

Stevia is non-fermentible and even the health Nazis cant find any problems with its consumption other than you are still teasing your sweet tooth.

Have you used it? Does it have any aftertaste? How sweet is it compared to sugar?

I sometimes use xylitol but I'd be willing to look at something else. I just hate artificial sweeteners.

 

[Firewalker11]

Have you used it? Does it have any aftertaste? How sweet is it compared to sugar?

I sometimes use xylitol but I'd be willing to look at something else. I just hate artificial sweeteners.

Yes, I use it to back sweeten my ciders, I have three kegs I started yesterday and will ferment them down to wherever they end up and then back sweeten them with stevia dissolved in distilled water (just a little) to taste.

I use a 2L soda/pop bottle with a pick up tube attached to a stainless steel carbonator to inject it into the OUT post, into the done and chilled cider.

I start with 1/2 cup of stevia and add from their -OR- pull back on the next keg. It works with sucrose too but you have to kill the yeast first. I dont get any sweetness from lactose and dont want chems.