Attempting Supplication clone

[Oldsock]

That keynote speech was fun to listen to. I sure wish I could see the pics he kept referring to. He's a fine speaker.

Yeah, sadly they didn't post it along with the other presentations (Chad Yakobson's pdf is great, just wish someone would post the audio).

 

[Emc]

Question, have had my best guess at the clone fermenting now for about three months. A friend works for a local winery and was able to get me some fresh pinot barrel stays that I added to the fermenting bucket when I added the cherries. I was putting something else in the deep storage last night to age and noticed the lid was cracked where the airlock hole is. Switched for a new lid and noticed a pretty heavy vinegar smell. Since I am new to trying to make sours, should I be worried? I plan to have it sit for at least another 4 months, and had it not been for the crack never would have even opened the bucket at this point. Is it normal to smell that vinegary? Was actually a little disappointing not to see more of an infection layer on top, but again the smell has me a little worried that perhaps the wine stays were a bad call, that the crack let in too much o2 or something else to cause it to spoil? Let it go and see what happens?

 

[passedpawn]

Question, have had my best guess at the clone fermenting now for about three months. A friend works for a local winery and was able to get me some fresh pinot barrel stays that I added to the fermenting bucket when I added the cherries. I was putting something else in the deep storage last night to age and noticed the lid was cracked where the airlock hole is. Switched for a new lid and noticed a pretty heavy vinegar smell. Since I am new to trying to make sours, should I be worried? I plan to have it sit for at least another 4 months, and had it not been for the crack never would have even opened the bucket at this point. Is it normal to smell that vinegary? Was actually a little disappointing not to see more of an infection layer on top, but again the smell has me a little worried that perhaps the wine stays were a bad call, that the crack let in too much o2 or something else to cause it to spoil? Let it go and see what happens?

wine stays were probably not a problem, but too much O2, for too long, and you'll get acetic acid production, which smells like vinegar. Too much of that and it might be hard to drink.

 

[jtakacs]

there are some high acetic commercial sours out there - ichtegems has a big acetic component and imo so does duchess... (i love ichtegems and don't care for duchess fwiw)

 

[HopBomb]

I've been following this thread and trying my hand a homebrewed Supplication this summer. Brewed back in April, primaried with WL530, then racked to secondary and hit it with the WL655 Belgian Sour mix and a couple of bottles of Supplication dregs. All seems well, nice pellicle, nice sour notes emanating from within, now thinking about adding the sour cherries. I've been looking around the local farmers markets here in VA the last few weeks, and I may have missed the mark. It seems the prime sour cherry season is short, and ends here in early July. So now I'm doing internet searches, and finding mostly canned and dried sour cherries online. If I go with the dried cherries what's the right ratio? I was planning 3 lbs of fresh sour cherries for a 5 gal batch. Anyone know what the equivalent dried cherry weight should be?

 

[BrewNinja1]

For those people who made this with only 3 lbs of cherries...are you actually getting any flavor? Ive used 5lbs before in other beers and never even tasted cherries (though it gives a great color). I just got done picking cherries in Door County this weekend and planned on putting 10lbs in my next batch. Was just curious.

 

[Spring_Chicken]

Anyone tasted yet to be able to give results?

 

[Spring_Chicken]

Ok guys, it's been a while. How about some notes? I'm working on some sours and maybe someone out there can help me not waste a year.

 

[chromados]

I still have mine a bourbon barrel, I taste it every month or 2 and see how it is coming along. It is coming along amazing. I pitched 3 strains of brett first and then later pitched the bugs. Both the brett and bugs coming along nicely and it has a nice pellicle on it. I plan to leave it in the barrel for around another year, so you will have to rely on others to get a real world tasting until I can carb up my 8 gallons of it.

Chromados

 

[mkade]

So the one that I brewed October of last year (10/2010) was bottled 5 weeks ago. We cork finished it, and while it's not as pretty as it could be, it's been effective. Anyways, we had tried two or three bottles around 2-3 weeks after bottling, and while the beer was good it was very light, even thing. Strange, because the flat sample we drank at bottling was delicious. Anyways, in what seems to have been a drastic change in the beer after 3.5 weeks, all bottles are tasting delicious. They have a beautiful cherry bretty nose, with a flavor very similar, I'd say, to supplication. It's not bitingly sour, but it's definitely notable. Overall, I'm very happy with how it turned out, and it's polled very well among my friends, who seem to love it as well. I feel like we were very fortunate, but I'm also grateful for the advice Vinny gave. I think anyone considering it should give it a go.

 

[DakotaRules]

Im glad this went well for this clone. Is there anything you would do differently next time? Additions or subtractions to the recipe?

 

[mkade]

Im glad this went well for this clone. Is there anything you would do differently next time? Additions or subtractions to the recipe?

In all honesty, I probably wouldn't do anything different if I had to do it over because it all went so well. However, if I did it again and I were going to do something differently, I might have mashed at a higher temperature or pitched the organisms earlier (I did it after one week of regular fermentation) to try to get more sourness. But overall, I'm very happy and will probably copy the recipe exactly if/when I make it again.

 

[MatthewHall]

You guys inspired me, and I brewed up something close to what Vinnie outlined in his response earlier in this thread.

Batch size: 5.50 gallons
Partial mash
3.0 lb American 2-row
3.0 lb light dme
1.0 lb Caramel Malt 40L
1.5 lb Vienna Malt
0.5 lb Carafa Special® TYPE III
.25 lb maltodextrin
1.0 oz Perle (8.2%) - added during boil, boiled 45.0 min
1 tsp yeast nutrient

Wyeast Roeselare Blend

Og: 1.056

Krausen developed after ~24 hours, and shas since grown to 3 inches high. It's beautiful! My question, did you let it sit on the primary yeast cake for 6-12 months? Or did you let primary finish and rack it over after a few weeks-month?

 

[HopBomb]

I racked mine to a secondary after about a month. I brewed it back in April, and just hit it with with 4 lbs of canned sour cherries last month. I couldn't find fresh sour cherries in the fall, and was torn between the using canned or dried. All of the dried cherries seem to have sunflower oil on them, which I really didn't want to dump into my beer, so ended up with the canned.

I'll admit to sneaking a taste when I added the cherries and it was a very tastey sour brown ale. I'm really looking forward to this one being done in early summer.

 

[Spring_Chicken]

I racked mine to a secondary after about a month. I brewed it back in April, and just hit it with with 4 lbs of canned sour cherries last month. I couldn't find fresh sour cherries in the fall, and was torn between the using canned or dried. All of the dried cherries seem to have sunflower oil on them, which I really didn't want to dump into my beer, so ended up with the canned.

I'll admit to sneaking a taste when I added the cherries and it was a very tastey sour brown ale. I'm really looking forward to this one being done in early summer.

Have you seen signs of refermentation since the addition of cherries?

 

[HopBomb]

Have you seen signs of refermentation since the addition of cherries?

Absolutely. The airlock was pushing out about a bubble a second for a few weeks after the cherries went in. Not so much now, a month later.

 

[DakotaRules]

Sounds awesome!

 

[drummermattie02]

If using dried cherries, does anyone have suggestions about a) good vendors (no preservatives, other stuff that will mess w/ the beer) and b) dosage? It would seem that a dry # goes farther than a fresh #, but who knows. Thanks.

 

[ssf]

funny you mention this - i bottled a cuvee de tomme inspired sour about a month ago, and tried a bottle after it had sat for 2-3 weeks. it tasted much different than my sample at bottling (delicious and well balanced at bottling, viscous, disjointed, and somewhat popcorny after a few weeks in the bottle). i'm planning on sitting on it for another month before trying another sample in order to let any bottle shock dissipate (and will hopefully have the same results as you!).

So the one that I brewed October of last year (10/2010) was bottled 5 weeks ago. We cork finished it, and while it's not as pretty as it could be, it's been effective. Anyways, we had tried two or three bottles around 2-3 weeks after bottling, and while the beer was good it was very light, even thing. Strange, because the flat sample we drank at bottling was delicious. Anyways, in what seems to have been a drastic change in the beer after 3.5 weeks, all bottles are tasting delicious. They have a beautiful cherry bretty nose, with a flavor very similar, I'd say, to supplication. It's not bitingly sour, but it's definitely notable. Overall, I'm very happy with how it turned out, and it's polled very well among my friends, who seem to love it as well. I feel like we were very fortunate, but I'm also grateful for the advice Vinny gave. I think anyone considering it should give it a go.

 

[Ciliorozo]

If using dried cherries, does anyone have suggestions about a) good vendors (no preservatives, other stuff that will mess w/ the beer) and b) dosage? It would seem that a dry # goes farther than a fresh #, but who knows. Thanks.

I just purchased a 10# bulk box from Shoreline Fruit ($82.50), I emailed about 5 vendors and they all seem to use Sunflower/Safflower Oil on their dried cherries since it helps in the drying process. However, Shoreline has assured me nothing is added to their "unsweetened" tart cherries. It was also the cheapest per pound price I found online, though you need to email them to find the 10# bulk box. I am still awaiting for my shipment, so I can't tell you yet how they taste. However shoreline was very quick with responses and Kristen was a pleasure to talk with on the phone. I have also been told that 1# of dried cherries is equivalent to 6-8#'s of fresh cherries. And the unsweet dried cherries cost more/pound because they contain more fruit per pound. The sweetened ones have a significant amount of sugar that adds to its weight.

Anyway I have 4 different beer styles I will be adding these to. I think I will be using ~2.5#'s per 5 Gallon batches.

Hope this helps! Cheers

 

[boralyl]

I got around to pulling a sample of my batch I brewed on 6/18/2011. The gravity has fallen to 1.012 and I expect it to drop a few more points. Currently the aroma has hints of sourness, but the base brown ale is more dominant. In the taste however, there are only traces of the brown ale. It is very sour in it's current state. I'm very pleased with how this is turning out, can't wait until sour cherry season here in Oregon to add even more flavor and some color to the brew. I also plan on adding .5oz of French Oak and a cup or two of Pinot Noir.

 

[anicola]

Subscribed

 

[dirty_martini]

I was just listening to the NHC keynote speech that Vinnie gave this year, it was mostly a history of his brewing, but he mentioned something I hadn't heard before... that at Russian River they use only dried fruit. Anyone else heard that before?

Edit: At least one blog I found confirmed it: http://blogs.laweekly.com/squidink/2010/03/easter_beers_russian_river_los.php at first I was thinking he meant frozen since he was talking about how they buy them in large blocks and use a cement mixer to break them up before adding to the beer.

I sat with Vinnie and Natalie at a molecular gastronomy beer dinner featuring RR beers. He told the whole dinner while describing his beers that all of his sours that have fruit added use dried fruit, so I can confirm it.

 

[smokinghole]

If you use dried fruit you have to be careful and look for cherries or whatever that are not oiled for packaging. That might be hard to find depending on where you live.

 

[spenghali]

If you use dried fruit you have to be careful and look for cherries or whatever that are not oiled for packaging. That might be hard to find depending on where you live.

From a page back:

I just purchased a 10# bulk box from Shoreline Fruit ($82.50), I emailed about 5 vendors and they all seem to use Sunflower/Safflower Oil on their dried cherries since it helps in the drying process. However, Shoreline has assured me nothing is added to their "unsweetened" tart cherries. It was also the cheapest per pound price I found online, though you need to email them to find the 10# bulk box. I am still awaiting for my shipment, so I can't tell you yet how they taste. However shoreline was very quick with responses and Kristen was a pleasure to talk with on the phone. I have also been told that 1# of dried cherries is equivalent to 6-8#'s of fresh cherries. And the unsweet dried cherries cost more/pound because they contain more fruit per pound. The sweetened ones have a significant amount of sugar that adds to its weight.

 

[smokinghole]

Well that's what I get for not reading. Touche'

 

[chromados]

I bottled 8 gallons of this last night out of my bourbon barrel. It was tasting amazing as I bottled and this may be one of the best beer I have made and by far the best sour. I cant wait for it to carbonate so I can have the first real taste in a month or so.

Chromados

 

[bbarnumboy]

Thanks for making this great resource for brewing a Supplication. This thread has been very informative to me.

I just Brewed my batch last week using your guys ideas for this beer. I have one question, since this is my first Sour style beer.

Should i only age the beer on the cherries for a few months and then rerack to another carboy? Or, is it ok to age this for the 12+ months on the cherries the whole time? Any thoughts?

 

[Oldsock]

Should i only age the beer on the cherries for a few months and then rerack to another carboy? Or, is it ok to age this for the 12+ months on the cherries the whole time? Any thoughts?

As far as I am aware Russian River ages the beer on the fruit from the time it goes into the barrel, until they blend and bottle it. Since fruit flavor fades over time, you usually want to have the beer on fruit until as close to serving as possible. Most brewers who use fresh fruit wait until the beer is already aged before adding it (about a year in the case of traditional lambic brewers). However, dried fruit doesn't have a delicate fresh flavor, so adding them earlier is fine.

Hope it turns out well!

 

[bbarnumboy]

Thanks! I will update through the process. Another question, is it necessary to crush the dried fruits? Or just go with whole Dried fruits.

Was there a mention as to which cherry works the best?