Astringency

[Oskar]

Okay, I had a problem like this while ago, but I threw the beer away. The beer came out tart/astringent.

And here it is now and again.

Round 1 cooked some three months ago, an Oatmeal stout with 10% gelatinized oat, no dark malts. Water from tap. Boiled 60min. I had a lot of hot/cold break material, but then ... so what? The wort after cooking was bittersweet as usual. After fermentation it was disgusting bitter/astringent. Then I racked it to secondary and it's crouched in the corner of the room for over two months now. The taste is *somewhat* better, but it still feels kind of astringent.

Round 2, Duvel-like beer, high OG. All malts were pale colored, bona fide spring water, yeast revived from the fridge, stepped in 4 steps to 3 liters. Styrian Golding + Saaz. Boiled for 120min. Still in the secondary, but I tried it a week ago and today. A week ago it was relatively okay, but felt a bit astringent. Now I feel it enough alright.

Round 3, dunkelweizen. 3% chocolate, decoction, almost half pf the grain bill was the wheat malt, OG average somewhere around 1.055. Boiled almost for an hour and a half. 50% spring water, 50% tap water. Yeast - one bag WB-06. Primary fermentation finished today after five days and it tastes astringent. Already.

So, in each case everything is different - water, malt, hops, yeast.
All three fermentations done in different plastic carboys.
The length of fermentation was different.
Boiling duration was different.

Btw, I always dechlorinate water by cooking (in Croatia it's possible).

What is left? Is it... mashing ? I work with a pH strip 3.6-6.0, adjusting strip color to be match 5.2 to 5.4 and it's working. I have no problem with sparging. I'm doing a batch sparge with vorlauf. I do not sparge under gravity of 1.010, sometimes not even below 1.015. I use lactic acid to lower mash pH. Calculate using EZ mash calculator, carefully pitch the acid, gently stir and wait a few minutes before measuring the pH sample using pH strip.

And the beer comes out astringent.

Now I really feel miserable. And angry. I mean, what the hell is going on?

 

[morticaixavier]

sounds like you've got your pH in line assuming your strips are accurate. If the flavor appears during fermentation I lean towards infection. some wild yeast strains give me a harshness that could be considered an astringency. acetaldehyde, which tastes like tart green apples might also come across as astringent. that can be caused either by infection or incomplete fermentation as the normal yeast produce it as part of their cycle and if they are not given enough time they can't clean it up.

I'm curious, you say you brewed an oatmeal stout with no dark grains, do you mean you added the dark grains to the sparge? or was it a 'pale stout'?

 

[Kremlock]

Ya I don't understand the no dark grain in the stout.

Sparging with water too hot?

 

[mabrungard]

pH strips are notorious for poor accuracy when used in the brewery. In addition, they tend to have an offset in their reading and true readings. Assuming that the strip reading is otherwise accurate, you need to be targeting a strip reading that is about 0.2 to 0.3 units less than your mash pH target.

The other big thing you may be fighting with is the water quality. If you don't have good information on the calcium content and alkalinity of either of those water sources, it will be difficult to use a mash pH calculator. Aquarium test kits for those parameters are handy things to have.

 

[BasementLurker]

Some of what you mention might be from the lactic acid. I haven't used it, but my understanding is that lactic acid will add some tartness which could be perceived as astringency if the flavor is unexpected for the style. Lactic acid will produce that tart flavor because of the heat applied to it which is why people add it when making sours. Phosphoric acid is more stable when hot and won't add the tart/sour flavor, so you might want to try that instead if you need more acid for your mash.

 

[Oskar]

sounds like you've got your pH in line assuming your strips are accurate. If the flavor appears during fermentation I lean towards infection. some wild yeast strains give me a harshness that could be considered an astringency. acetaldehyde, which tastes like tart green apples might also come across as astringent. that can be caused either by infection or incomplete fermentation as the normal yeast produce it as part of their cycle and if they are not given enough time they can't clean it up.

I'm curious, you say you brewed an oatmeal stout with no dark grains, do you mean you added the dark grains to the sparge? or was it a 'pale stout'?

I really doubt it could be an infection. After ~25 batches brewed, I believe I already adopted the sanitary procedures. However, there san always be a flaw. But 3 times in a row? Different carboys? However, acetaldehyde could be a problem and I'll have to wait for some improvement with those last batches.

Ya I don't understand the no dark grain in the stout.

Sparging with water too hot?

And yes, it was a pale oatmeal stout - I tasted one almost 2 yrs ago and it was great. Now I wanted to brew it myself.

pH strips are notorious for poor accuracy when used in the brewery. In addition, they tend to have an offset in their reading and true readings. Assuming that the strip reading is otherwise accurate, you need to be targeting a strip reading that is about 0.2 to 0.3 units less than your mash pH target.

I use strips only to check if EZ water calc is not lying. It wasnt

The other big thing you may be fighting with is the water quality. If you don't have good information on the calcium content and alkalinity of either of those water sources, it will be difficult to use a mash pH calculator. Aquarium test kits for those parameters are handy things to have.

Unfortunately I don't have a water quality readings. However, I know that the water quality is poor, and the water is really hard. Because of that the water always have to be boiled to precipitate carbonates. You wouldn't believe how the bottom of the water-boiling vessel looks like after decanting useful water.

Some of what you mention might be from the lactic acid. I haven't used it, but my understanding is that lactic acid will add some tartness which could be perceived as astringency if the flavor is unexpected for the style. Lactic acid will produce that tart flavor because of the heat applied to it which is why people add it when making sours. Phosphoric acid is more stable when hot and won't add the tart/sour flavor, so you might want to try that instead if you need more acid for your mash.

Hm, Ido have some souermalz available in my inventory. Will use that next time.

 

[Oskar]

I took some of following proposals into account (quite a few of them are from discussion with my fellow brewers on local HB forum):

• use RO water and add gypsum, CaCl2 and Epsom salt to get my water into the condition desired for mashing
• check all my hops and throw away any with questionable odour
• buy new mashing bags and throw away the stainless sieve used for sparging on the bottom of the mash tun; maybe it's not stainless (as declared) after all
• make a new mash tun
• use sauermalz instead of lactic acid

Some additional ideas:

• check my thermometers again and buy another to be sure my temperature reading is ok
• buy pH meter and dump the pH strips
• try using the no-sparge method proposed by J. Palmer

 

[mabrungard]

Unfortunately I don't have a water quality readings. However, I know that the water quality is poor, and the water is really hard.

If you don't have an accurate water report for your water source, using EZ won't really help you. In addition, the pH prediction that the program gives is probably worthless without good input. The strips could still be deceiving you.

 

[Oskar]

If you don't have an accurate water report for your water source, using EZ won't really help you. In addition, the pH prediction that the program gives is probably worthless without good input. The strips could still be deceiving you.

These are rough estimations from my distributor:

• Calcium 100
• Magnesium 20
• Sodium 15
• Chloride 20
• Sulfate 100
• Bicarbonate (CaCO3) 360

Unfortunately, these are only orientational numbers.

Another thing is I was getting astringency with 100% spring water as well:

• Calcium 17
• Magnesium 4
• Sodium 9
• Chloride 19
• Sulfate 3
• Bicarbonate (HCO3-) 44

 

[Oskar]

Update: it seems I experienced at least two types of astringencies in those three beers. First one is rather stubborn and it doesn't wear off. It's been almost 4 months since I brewed the beer and it's still here in the aftertaste. I guess it's tannin. For newly brewed batches, it's mellowing rather quickly. Duvel-like beer doesn't have it almost at all, except in the aftertaste, but faint. And dunkelweizen has something else, it could be due to the underpitching. I'm guessing that safale yeast WB-06 was too old and not so viable as I thought.

Weird.

 

[brew2enjoy]

I have recently been battling the same problem. Started out of nowhere. I suspect my well water has changed since I got a water report a few years ago. I've dumped some expensive batches because of this pesky problem.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Home Brew mobile app

 

[dlester]

I know this is an older thread, but I agree with BasementLurker, lactic acid gives off an astringency, especially if you use too much. If your pH readings are wrong, the grains can be at fault. I use 25% Phosphoric Acid, which is used in Soda drinks, which took away my problem with astringency.

For the beers that have mellowed, your issue is that your not giving it enough time to mellow out. It's called a "green beer" due to its infancy in maturity.


Cheers,