Astringency & pH

[lolcats]

Hey everyone,

Looking for your input. Batch after batch, I am getting a pretty strong astringency and I don't like it.

My process is the following.

BIAB with NYC tap water, usually around mash ratio of 1.3. No sparge just top off with cold tap water to reach pre boil gravity.

Last batch was 7.93 lbs of grains for 2.5 gallon mash. Just pilsner malt, wheat and flaked oats.

My ****ty pH-meter typically reads a very high pH, which never lowers when adding gypsum.

I'm just wondering what I should do? More grains, so lower mash ratio?

Thanks

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Does NYC water have chlorine or chloramines, and are you doing anything to remove them?

Depending upon your waters alkalinity and your recipe you likely should be using an acid to get your mash pH down into the 5.2 to 5.6 range.

You would easily have to add a whoppingly ridiculous excess of Gypsum to get your mash pH into the proper range, and unless perhaps this is for a west coast IPA, high sulfate may not be desired.

You really need to do a batch sparge instead of merely topping off with cold water. Your water is likely alkaline, so the sparge water should also be acid adjusted to 5.4 to 5.6 pH.

Note: Waters alkalinity is not measured via taking a pH reading on your water. You need it analyzed...

 

[lolcats]

Thanks! No idea about the alkalinity. I think it's pretty soft.

Lactic acid is the way to go?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thanks! No idea about the alkalinity. I think it's pretty soft.

Lactic acid is the way to go?

Lactic acid is a good choice, as are phosphoric acid and acidulated malt.

You really need to address and eliminate chlorine and chloramines first though.

And it would be a good idea to get a Ward Laboratories, Inc. brewing water analysis so you can dial in (adjust) your alkalinity and mineralization levels to suit the recipe you are brewing. Also, your waters alkalinity is not likely helping things unless perhaps you are brewing things like Stouts,

Or alternately make your own strike (mash) water by starting with RO water and adding mineralization, which means most typically adding calcium chloride and/or calcium sulfate. This is really the best choice in my opinion.

Until you know what you are starting with you will not know how to get where you want to be with respect to your water.

 

[lolcats]

One last question:

Shouldn't the mash pH be dependent on the water used' pH?

I tried using the Bru'N'Water spreadsheet and there is nowhere to imput the water pH. The spreadsheet is telling me to add 0.8ml of lactic acid per gallon of mash water to get to 5.2 pH.

Does that make sense?

 

[Yooper]

One last question:

Shouldn't the mash pH be dependent on the water used' pH?

I tried using the Bru'N'Water spreadsheet and there is nowhere to imput the water pH. The spreadsheet is telling me to add 0.8ml of lactic acid per gallon of mash water to get to 5.2 pH.

Does that make sense?

No, the water pH isn't a factor. What is a factor is the alkalinity of the water.

You may want to target a mash pH of 5.3-5.4 for most lighter colored beers and 5.5 or so for darker beers with roasted grains for best flavor. 5.2 is pretty low and can produce a bit of a tart flavor in the final beer.

Lactic acid can have a flavor impact, so I'd use phosphoric acid you you needed more than about 4-5ml of lactic acid.

Also, unless you're using 100% RO water or distilled water to sparge, you likely need to acidify your sparge water. If you are just adding tap water to the boil kettle, your pH in the kettle will be high as well and may be a cause of the astringency.

Of course, without knowing the water you are dealing with, I'm just guessing. You need a water report to be able to really know what's going on.

 

[lolcats]

Oh! So top off water is counted as sparge water and needs to be treated to?

Didn't know about boil pH... Only knew about mash pH

Thanks!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Top-off water is not something that all-grain brewers would generally utilize, as the object is (within certain SG limits so as to avoid the potential for astringency) to sparge as much of the sugar from the grist as is possible. Topping off is far and away more likely to be seen in extract brewing.

Without a water report you are flying blind.

 

[mattdee1]

A "pale" grain bill of pilsner, wheat, and flaked oats is going to be no match for even moderate alkalinity levels that are likely in your tap water. And by "no match" I mean it will not provide nearly enough acidity to get the mash pH into the ideal range.

Getting a water analysis done would make you more well-equipped than you are now, but the problem with that approach is that whatever results you get are just a snapshot in time, and it would be a bit of a fallacy to assume they won't change.

I started by doing what you're doing, and eventually I decided to try the above recommended RO water approach. I was reluctant because it just seemed silly to go pay for water when it was (and still is) flowing plentifully out of my tap. But that was probably 2 years ago now, and I've not used tap water since.

It's a pain in the arse to have to gather up my 5gal jugs, go to the store, wait around to fill them up, pay for them, lug them out to my car, lug them out of my car into my garage, etc. but I bite the bullet and do it. Why? Because there is so much time and work that goes into a single batch of beer--heck, there's money too--that even a 5% chance of being bitten by unseen water gremlins is too much risk for comfort.

Rather than fart around by throwing a bunch of stuff at your tap water in an attempt to whip it into shape with lack of certainty, I'd strongly recommend you at least try a few batches using the RO method.

Good luck, brew on

 

[lolcats]

@mattdee1:
Wow thanks for the imput! really appreciate it. My next step will probably going with RO water but I'll probably try a few batches with acidifying my tap water first.

@Silver_Is_Money:
I usually top off instead of sparging, because I found that it's a waste of time and I don't get much extra sugars out.

So let's say I mash with the full amount of water with a ratio of 2 and acidify that to 5.2 pH. Would that be exactly the same as mashing at 5.2 pH at a ratio of 1.25 and topping off with 5.2 pH water?

Sorry for these dumb questions

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I usually top off instead of sparging, because I found that it's a waste of time and I don't get much extra sugars out.

So let's say I mash with the full amount of water with a ratio of 2 and acidify that to 5.2 pH. Would that be exactly the same as mashing at 5.2 pH at a ratio of 1.25 and topping off with 5.2 pH water?

Sorry for these dumb questions

First, I would shoot for a mash pH of 5.4. And also for sparge water adjusted to pH 5.4. Batch sparging is just about as easy as topping off.

Would it be the same? Not quite, because if you are topping off you are leaving some converted sugars behind, even if you don't think you are.

How can you assess your need for mineralization (and also acidification or perhaps even the need for additional alkalinity for that matter) if you do not know what your water is like up front? At the very least purchase a GH/KH fish tank test kit (about $7 on Amazon.com) and analyse your own alkalinity and general hardness. On first wild ballpark guess/assumption you can subtract alkalinity (KH) from general hardness (GH) and then assume (I.E., do further guessing) that perhaps 70% of what remains of GH will be calcium and perhaps 25% of what remains of GH to be magnesium (allowing for 5% other stuff). You will not know your chloride or sulfate or sodium levels, but at least you will have a good start on the essentials. A GH/KH kit costs about $7 on Amazon.com. Results when multiplied by 17.848 are converted to PPM.

Also, if your water is chlorine or chloramine treated (or both) you will need to knock those substances out with campden tablets before you do can anything else (be it GH/KH testing, mashing, sparging or topping off). These two anti-microbial substances will give you off flavored beer every time, and might even be what you are perceiving as astringency.

NOTE: Chloride is not chlorine.

 

[rhys333]

Hey everyone,

Looking for your input. Batch after batch, I am getting a pretty strong astringency and I don't like it.

My process is the following.

BIAB with NYC tap water, usually around mash ratio of 1.3. No sparge just top off with cold tap water to reach pre boil gravity.

Last batch was 7.93 lbs of grains for 2.5 gallon mash. Just pilsner malt, wheat and flaked oats.

My ****ty pH-meter typically reads a very high pH, which never lowers when adding gypsum.

I'm just wondering what I should do? More grains, so lower mash ratio?

Thanks

I struggled through what you're experiencing now, and what it ultimately came down to was using a bag with loose weave.

If you're using a paint strainer bag or a BIAB bag with visibly open mesh, then I strongly recommend upgrading to one of the better bags. The reason is that the loose mesh bags let a large amount of grain particulate through and into the BK. After a 1 hour boil, this stuff turns astringent and acrid. I noticed the change immediate after switching from a budget bag to the Wiserbrewer bag.

That said, appropriate mash pH is of course very important too. I'm guessing you may not be getting astringency from high pH (though perhaps on this pale beer you are), as available info on NYC water shows low alkalinity and mineral content (~ Ca:6, Mg:1, Cl:9, SO4:4, Alk:19). On darker beers you're likely getting low pH.

 

[lolcats]

@Silver_Is_Money:
Thanks for all the information! I'll look into getting a test kit asap

@rhys333:
I do use a paint strainer bags. Which bag would you recommend?

I've been only making very pale IPAs, with only 2.5% Honey malt at the most, since I dislike any toasted flavors in them. So yeah I've been getting mash pH close to 6 and astringent beers.

 

[Yooper]

@Silver_Is_Money:
Thanks for all the information! I'll look into getting a test kit asap

@rhys333:
I do use a paint strainer bags. Which bag would you recommend?

I've been only making very pale IPAs, with only 2.5% Honey malt at the most, since I dislike any toasted flavors in them. So yeah I've been getting mash pH close to 6 and astringent beers.

The easy fix is to lower your pH to 5.4 in the mash and kettle. Phosphoric acid would be my choice, since it's flavor neutral.

 

[rhys333]

I do use a paint strainer bags. Which bag would you recommend?

I recommend Wilserbrewer bags. Low cost, effective, and fast shipping.
http://biabbags.webs.com/

The guy that makes then is also here on HBT.

 

[lolcats]

Thanks rhys333!

So in theory, could i gather 5 gallons of tap water, add 0.75ml/gallon of lactic acid to bring the mash water to 5.4 pH and measure/adjust before heating everything up. Then add the pale grains to mash.

Then skip the sparging and start the boil directly. The boil pH should be in the 5.3-5.4 range?

Not looking the perfect water profile yet just getting that mash pH in the correct range.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

With a large enough weight of grist utilizing a sufficiently pale enough base malt you may find that you will need to get your strike water down to perhaps as low as pH 4 in order to mash at around a pH of 5.4. But this would be merely guess work on my part as well as on yours.

If you have no idea as to the specific mineral or alkalinity nature of your strike water or your grist, how can you possibly conclude that your strike water will need 3.75 mL of 88% lactic acid for 5 gallons to bring the strike water alone down to pH 5.4? And afterwards, how can you possibly conclude that this will subsequently permit you to also mash at pH 5.4 after the grist is added? This all appears to be merely wild speculation. Again I must emphasize that to get where you want to go you must first know where you are at.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What matters is your mash pH -with water and grist. And that should be 5.3-5.4 at 20°C, not at mash temperature (pH depends on temperature). It's one of those things, you have to do it "properly" once or twice but then you get a feel for how much is needed with your particular grain and water.

 

[lolcats]

With a large enough weight of grist utilizing a sufficiently pale enough base malt you may find that you will need to get your strike water down to perhaps as low as pH 4 in order to mash at around a pH of 5.4. But this would be merely guess work on my part as well as on yours.
t.

Sorry, dont get that part. Aren't grains supposed to acidifiy the mash? Why would you want to get the water lower before adding the grains??

Thanks!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Dark grains do, pale ones don't.

 

[lolcats]

So why wouldnt you get the strike water around 5.4?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So why wouldnt you get the strike water around 5.4?

'

Because the buffering capacity (the measure of a substances resistance to change in pH via the addition of acid or base) of the grist dwarfs the buffering capacity of pure (de-ionized, or DI) water. That means a small amount of added acid or base will alter the pH of "pure" water to a very high degree, while at the same time altering the pH of the recipes mashed grist (its aggregate of component malts, unmalted grains, and adjuncts) to a very low degree (relative to pure water).

The presence of the ions of certain minerals (primarily Ca++ and Mg++) and/or alkalinity (mainly calcium and magnesium bicarbonate, which are both conflated into and then quantified in units of CaCO3) in water alter its capacity to pH buffer, with this alteration ranging from close to none at all, and upward to a small amount, or upward to a large amount, and lastly to a very large amount, based upon their respective quantities, and this is why you truly need to have a firm grasp of their quantitative values via an analysis of your water.

Darker malts generally have DI water mash pH's below 5.4 (down to about pH 4.2 in some cases), while lighter colored malts (be they barley or wheat) have DI water mash pH's that are above pH 5.4, and can be found to be as high as roughly about pH 6.1 in some cases. Light colored malts form the basis (make up the predominant part) of nigh on all beer recipes, and are thus called 'base' malts (though ironically, for those who speak English at least, they could just as well have been given this designation due to their pH characteristic). A ballpark rule of thumb is that the darker the malts color the more relatively acidic it is with respect to the alpha and beta amylase enzymes peak activity midpoint of pH 5.4 (as opposed to being rated as acidic or basic with respect to pH 7 as most who do not understand brewing requirements would likely first expect). In brewing, malts with a DI water mash pH of above 5.4 are considered basic. The degree of a malts classification as to being basic or neutral or acidic is further determined by its categorical classification, as in: base, specialty, caramel, crystal, deep roasted, etc...

A subject that continues to be ignored here is: Does NYC treat its water with flavor damaging chlorine and/or chloramines?

 

[auburntsts]

So as a noob (I have yet to brew anything yet) I've been researching everything brewing, to include water chemistry. If I understand the principles correctly the grain bill, strike/sparge water chemistry, and temp all combine to determine the mash pH. So to correctly achieve the target mash pH you have to know the source water chemistry and malt characteristics otherwise you're simply guessing as to what or how much of given substance (acid, mineral, etc) needs to be added to the water to modify it to hit the target mash pH. The use of a calculator like Bru'n Water, https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ seems to be the ticket to getting it all dialed in. At least that's my line of thinking.

 

[doug293cz]

So as a noob (I have yet to brew anything yet) I've been researching everything brewing, to include water chemistry. If I understand the principles correctly the grain bill, strike/sparge water chemistry, and temp all combine to determine the mash pH. So to correctly achieve the target mash pH you have to know the source water chemistry and malt characteristics otherwise you're simply guessing as to what or how much of given substance (acid, mineral, etc) needs to be added to the water to modify it to hit the target mash pH. The use of a calculator like Bru'n Water, https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ seems to be the ticket to getting it all dialed in. At least that's my line of thinking.

You're off to a good start.

Brew on

 

[mattdee1]

So as a noob (I have yet to brew anything yet) I've been researching everything brewing, to include water chemistry. If I understand the principles correctly the grain bill, strike/sparge water chemistry, and temp all combine to determine the mash pH. So to correctly achieve the target mash pH you have to know the source water chemistry and malt characteristics otherwise you're simply guessing as to what or how much of given substance (acid, mineral, etc) needs to be added to the water to modify it to hit the target mash pH. The use of a calculator like Bru'n Water, https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ seems to be the ticket to getting it all dialed in. At least that's my line of thinking.

Pretty much spot on. And I can vouch that Bru'n Water is a very reliable and accurate predictor of what the mash pH will be, so long as you feed it the correct data. That last point is kind of the sticking point--without knowing the composition of your water with reasonable accuracy, the quality of the tool's predictions will vary. Hence, why I advocate starting from a "clean slate" with RO water and building up the water in a deliberate manner to ensure you get to where you need to go and not waste 7-8 hours of your time making a mediocre beer that could have been great.

The big point of confusion I keep seeing on this subject is the relationship (or non-relationship, as it were) between the strike water pH and the mash pH. In simple terms, the main characteristics of the water that will impact the mash pH cannot be measured with a pH meter. The only way to control mash pH accurately is to know the composition of the strike water (namely alkalinity).