Astringency off-flavor

[kstiglich]

Hi folks,
I feel my beers have astringency, because I cannot drink them for long...it has a good taste, but I have to drink it sip by sip...

I thought it is astringency and according with Palmers book, it is caused by a too long mash time and/or Mash Ph out of range 5.2-5.6.

I think most of my beers have the same astringency, and I have different recipes with mash time between 60min to 90min, and PH is always between 5.4 and 5.5.
I am crushing my grains with a Corona mill, would it be the cause of a very thin crush that would be causing this astringency? Any other idea?

Regards,
Kenneth

 

[The_Bishop]

We'll need a lot more info on the rest of the process. What grain bill, water, water hardness/alkalinity, mash temperature, mashout temperature, sparge type, sparge temperature...

 

[Minky]

In addition to the info that The Bishop mentioned, it would help to include one of the recipes that had the "astringency". Especially important is the hop schedule. I had problems early on with what I was calling astringency, and it turned out that, in my attempts to make "hoppy" beers, I was simply using too many bittering hops.

 

[kstiglich]

This is one of the recipes...
but most of my beers are very similar...

American Pale (Amarillo, Citra, Simcoe)
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 25.71 l
Post Boil Volume: 23.23 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 l
Bottling Volume: 19.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 9.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 52.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.1 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
4.00 kg Pilsner Patagonia (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 85.8 %
0.46 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 2 9.9 %
0.20 kg Maltexco Caramelo 40 EBC (40.0 EBC) Grain 3 4.3 %
8.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 9.0 IBUs
8.00 g Amarillo [8.20 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 5 4.5 IBUs
4.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 6 3.6 IBUs
2.00 g Cascade [7.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7 1.0 IBUs
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 8 -
8.00 g Amarillo [8.20 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 3.7 IBUs
4.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 2.9 IBUs
2.00 g Cascade [7.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 11 0.8 IBUs
8.00 g Amarillo [8.20 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 12 2.7 IBUs
4.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 13 2.1 IBUs
2.00 g Cascade [7.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 14 0.6 IBUs
8.00 g Amarillo [8.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 15 1.5 IBUs
4.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 16 1.2 IBUs
2.00 g Cascade [7.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 17 0.3 IBUs
23.00 g Amarillo [8.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 60. Hop 18 19.2 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [ Yeast 19 -
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Other 20 -
25.00 g Amarillo [8.20 %] - Dry Hop 14.0 Days Hop 21 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Braumeister Medium body 67c
Total Grain Weight: 4.66 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
add malt pipe Add 26.00 l of water at 41.4 C 40.0 C 0 min
Saccharification 1 Add 0.00 l of water and heat to 67.0 C 67.0 C 60 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 3.38 l water at 78.0 C
Notes:
------

Water adjusted with salts
Mash Water 26L Reverse Osmosis
Gypsum 3gr
Calcium Chloridium 2gr
EPSOM SALTS 2gr

SPARGE WATER 3.4L
Gypsum 0.4 gr
Calcium Chloridium 0.3gr
EPSOM Salts 0.3gr

After 10 minutes of mashing, PH was on 5.6. 1ml of lactic acid was added and new PH was 4.5.
I use a immersion chiller to cold the wort.
I pitched a rehydrated yeast at 68f and ferment for 3 weeks on primary.
After that I cold crash the carboy for 2 days and transfer into keg and force carbonation at 15PSI and 45f.

I will post another recipe in the next post.

 

[kstiglich]

Recipe: Sierra Nevada Pale Ale
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 25.71 l
Post Boil Volume: 23.23 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 l
Bottling Volume: 20.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.049 SG
Estimated Color: 12.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 34.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 73.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 80.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
4.10 kg Pale Malt Patagonia (6.9 EBC) Grain 1 90.9 %
0.41 kg Maltexco Caramelo 40 EBC (40.0 EBC) Grain 2 9.1 %
19.00 g Perle [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 3 17.6 IBUs
5.00 g Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 8.1 IBUs
1.00 Items Chiller (Boil 20.0 mins) Other 5 -
1.11 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
28.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 8.9 IBUs
21.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 8 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05 Yeast 9 -
60.00 g Cascade [7.00 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 10 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Braumeister Medium body 67c
Total Grain Weight: 4.51 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
add malt pipe Add 26.00 l of water at 36.0 C 35.0 C 0 min
Protein Rest Heat to 52.0 C over 12 min 52.0 C 20 min
Maltose Heat to 65.0 C over 15 min 65.0 C 60 min
Saccharification 1 Heat to 77.0 C over 10 min 77.0 C 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 2.29 l water at 78.0 C
Notes:
------
Sierra Nevade Pale Ale clone from The Northern Brewer forums

Yeast running on a stir plate of 1 liter running for 18 hours ar 68ºF.

MASH 26L of Inverse Osmosis water
Gypsum 5.23gr
Epsom 2.37gr
Calcium Chloridium 2.57gr
Sodium Bicarbonate 2.76gr

SPARGE 2.3L of Inverse Osmosis water
Gypsum 0.46gr
Epsom 0.21gr
Calcium Chloridium 0.22gr
Sodium Bicarbonate 0.24gr

10 minutes after mashing, PH was on 5.95, so I add 4ml of lactic acid and it drop to PH 5.46

For the whirpool hops addition, I add 50% of hops (10.5g) and keep the temp for 10 minutes, then I add the other 50% (10.5g) and turned on the chiller to cold the wort.

It was pitched, fermented at 66f with temperatura control during three weeks, and then transfered to keg and forced carbonation at 13 PSI and 45c.

 

[MaxStout]

What are you using to measure pH? If paper strips, those tend to read low, and your actual pH would be higher.

A fine crush shouldn't cause the astringency. BIAB brewers often make a very fine crush with no issues.

High mash temp can cause tannin extraction, but you would have to be very high, say 170+ (thermometer WAY off).

 

[kstiglich]

What are you using to measure pH? If paper strips, those tend to read low, and your actual pH would be higher.

A fine crush shouldn't cause the astringency. BIAB brewers often make a very fine crush with no issues.

High mash temp can cause tannin extraction, but you would have to be very high, say 170+ (thermometer WAY off).

I am using a Ph meter Milwaukee with ATC. I read PH on real time directly from the mash, but I also took a sample and let it cool to room temp and the PH reading is the same, so I think it would be ok.
I use a Braumeister so my making temps are under control...

 

[pvault98]

Do you adjust your sparge water as well? I found my sparge water was the culprit in astringent flavors in some of my beers and now that I adjust the Ph of it to be between 5.7 and 6.0 it fixed the issue.

 

[beerkench]

Maybe try a batch without salts. I used to add gypsum to match the pale profile in bru n water but found my beer came out dry and bittery tasting.I went from 4gr to 3 gr to 2 gr till I realized that the result was smoother without. I think gypsum is over rated or maybe I'm just sensitive to it.


Sent from hell
using Home Brew

 

[IslandLizard]

3 things I see that stand out:

1. How do you heat your mash? If direct, is there a false bottom? You're not scorching your mash?
2. You cannot get an accurate pH reading at mash temps. Meter should both be calibrated (ideally before each use) and used at room temps, 20°C/68°F. There's a little leeway on the temps, but ATC only goes so far.
3. You seem to be mashing with a lot of water (~90%), leaving not much for sparging (~10%). Perhaps your mash is too thin?

10 minutes after mashing, PH was on 5.95, so I add 4ml of lactic acid and it drop to PH 5.46

A mash pH of 5.95 is really high. But again, perhaps measured out of temp range for your meter.
RO water and the bits of salts should not give you such a high mash pH, unless it's a characteristic of the Patagonia malt. Again, 26 l for 4.5kg of malt is a very high water ratio, about double of what most home brewers use.

Do a small test mash with a pound of your grist and take accurate pH and temp measures with properly calibrated meters. Your pH seems to be on the high side, and if so, best is to add some acid to the strike water, so that when mashing your pH is right where you want it to be. Are you aiming for 5.4 or 5.2?

 

[kstiglich]

I just finished carbonating a SMASH Citra Pale Ale, and it was the best beer I prepared. It does not have any astringency flavor, and the main difference between this beer and the other, was that I use water filtered using an activated carbon filter, and campden. I guess all the salts added to the water would be causing that astringency.
I will continue brewing only with filtered water and will confirm if those salts were causing that off flavor.

 

[kstiglich]

3 things I see that stand out:

1. How do you heat your mash? If direct, is there a false bottom? You're not scorching your mash?
2. You cannot get an accurate pH reading at mash temps. Meter should both be calibrated (ideally before each use) and used at room temps, 20°C/68°F. There's a little leeway on the temps, but ATC only goes so far.
3. You seem to be mashing with a lot of water (~90%), leaving not much for sparging (~10%). Perhaps your mash is too thin?



A mash pH of 5.95 is really high. But again, perhaps measured out of temp range for your meter.
RO water and the bits of salts should not give you such a high mash pH, unless it's a characteristic of the Patagonia malt. Again, 26 l for 4.5kg of malt is a very high water ratio, about double of what most home brewers use.

Do a small test mash with a pound of your grist and take accurate pH and temp measures with properly calibrated meters. Your pH seems to be on the high side, and if so, best is to add some acid to the strike water, so that when mashing your pH is right where you want it to be. Are you aiming for 5.4 or 5.2?

Answers:
1. I use a Braumeister, it works as a BIAB system with direct heat.
2. I have read many times that PH cannot be read during mash temps, but in practice, I have calculated PH with this Phmeter with ATC, after mashing, so I read it at 122f aprox. and have taken samples, cool them and try PH again, and the PH is the same at both temps, 122f and 68f..
3. Yes, Braumeister was designed to mash very thin...but apparently it is not a big problem because you should have great beers with this machine.

I guess my PH is high because I start from RO water and using pale or pilsner malts it will not acidify...so it is mainly acidify by the salts added...
Anyway, I will recalibrate and measure again my PH next time following a comparison at mashing temp and room temp.... thanks for your questions.

 

[pvault98]

I agree that your mash Ph is too high. The salts are for flavor enhancement, you still need some acid malt or lactic acid in the mash to lower your Ph. I don't think there is a batch I make that doesn't either have 2-3 oz of acid malt for a few mL of lactic acid 88% added to lower the mash.

 

[IslandLizard]

I would still do a small test mash and get the acid parameters right. Use the exact same proportions of grist and water and mimic the Braumeister's process (all steps). Then measure the pH (chilled to room temps) of the saccharification rest, performed at 146-160F).

It is remarkable your pH meter gives you identical results at both temps. What model is it? [you said it already, Milwaukee]. Most probes don't last long with heat such as mash temps. Now 122 is not that high, but still not ideal.

You're definitely going to need some acid in the strike and sparge water and aim for a pH of 5.2-5.4. Acidulated malt, lactic acid, or phosphoric acid are recommended. Our water is quite soft too and I always need to acidify it. I now use Phosphoric acid (85%, diluted to 25% for easier measuring). I never add dark grains (>160L) to the mash, so I don't get any acid from them, they get steeped on the side and added at the end of the boil.

Are you using Bru'nWater and/or Brewer's Friend water calculators?

 

[grathan]

I was gonna say salts too. Perhaps your scale is off. Epson salt has a powerful flavor and can be tough to measure.

 

[uncleleon]

Recheck sparge time, temp, and ph.
Note: a lot of salts can absorb smells/Flavors from the air. (I.e. Don't use the Epsom that was been sitting in your bathroom for 6 months. Or baking soda from the fridge)
Also, give any chemical adjustment time to reach equilibrium before brewing. It's takes time to release those negative hydrogen ions.

 

[kstiglich]

I just finished brewing my Amarillo+Simcoe+Citra Pale Ale.
I take advantage of this brewing to test my PH meter. Following is the procedure I followed and the conclusions for the PH.

First, I calibrated my PH Meter with 2 samples 4.01 and 7.01

Then, I measured my water PH. That water was filtered using an activated carbon cartridge and just in case 1/4 campden tablet. That water's PH was 7.12

Then I mashed my grains at 104f and let them stand for some minutes and started heating it...then measured my Mashing PH when it was between 115f and 120f, and the resulting PH was 5.78.

Then I took a sample of wort and let it cool until it got to room temp 70f, and measured the PH again, and it was PH 5.94.

In conclusion, my Milwaukee PHmeter has an error of 0.16 due to temperature correction. I adjusted my mash water to PH 5.3, so adjusting this correction it would be on 5.46 more/less....

Also, later I adjust my sparge water (Initially PH 7.12) with lactic acid to acidify it until PH 5.5. I measured the sparge temp at 172f.
Hope this time I will avoid any astringency....

 

[Yooper]

MASH 26L of Inverse Osmosis water
Gypsum 5.23gr
Epsom 2.37gr
Calcium Chloridium 2.57gr
Sodium Bicarbonate 2.76gr

SPARGE 2.3L of Inverse Osmosis water
Gypsum 0.46gr
Epsom 0.21gr
Calcium Chloridium 0.22gr
Sodium Bicarbonate 0.24gr

10 minutes after mashing, PH was on 5.95, so I add 4ml of lactic acid and it drop to PH 5.46

You should NEVER add alkalinity to sparge water, and in fact should acidity the sparge water. It's only 2.3L, but that can still pull out tannins.

You should never add bicarbonate to a mash, until after you take a pH reading as very few mashes will need alkalinity. It's at cross purposes to add acid and alkalinity to the same mash. If you have a grainbill with a ton of roasted dark grains, and you know from experience that the pH will be high, then it would be ok.

Have you tried any batches with 100% RO water, without all those additions? And adding a bit of acid or acid malt, to get a pH of 5.3-5.5?

 

[Yooper]

Then I mashed my grains at 104f and let them stand for some minutes and started heating it...then measured my Mashing PH when it was between 115f and 120f, and the resulting PH was 5.78.

Then I took a sample of wort and let it cool until it got to room temp 70f, and measured the PH again, and it was PH 5.94.
.

As you know, that's way too high. The next time you do the same grainbill, you'll know how much acid you need for the grainbill.

I don't do an acid rest and protein rest, so I just dough in for saccrification rests, but I plan on a mash pH of 5.3-5.4 for lighter colored beers with good results.

 

[kstiglich]

You should NEVER add alkalinity to sparge water, and in fact should acidity the sparge water. It's only 2.3L, but that can still pull out tannins.

You should never add bicarbonate to a mash, until after you take a pH reading as very few mashes will need alkalinity. It's at cross purposes to add acid and alkalinity to the same mash. If you have a grainbill with a ton of roasted dark grains, and you know from experience that the pH will be high, then it would be ok.

Have you tried any batches with 100% RO water, without all those additions? And adding a bit of acid or acid malt, to get a pH of 5.3-5.5?

I never tried 100% RO. Actually I read many sites telling that 100% RO will produce a flat beer, so I tried to adjust my water with salts, and the reason to use some alkalinity salts and some acid salts, was to adjust the chemicals composition on my water according with Brun's water..... unfortunately, it appears that those salts does not dissolve at all, or something else...

Additionally, I do not have any acid malt available...thus my only way to acidify water or mash would be increasing my caramel malts or using lactic acid....

 

[kstiglich]

As you know, that's way too high. The next time you do the same grainbill, you'll know how much acid you need for the grainbill.

I don't do an acid rest and protein rest, so I just dough in for saccrification rests, but I plan on a mash pH of 5.3-5.4 for lighter colored beers with good results.

Yes, for that reason I added 3ml of lactic acid and my mash moved to 5.45 approximately. I understand that for a pale ale with 40IBUs and medium body, that PH would be ok....

 

[Yooper]

I never tried 100% RO. Actually I read many sites telling that 100% RO will produce a flat beer, so I tried to adjust my water with salts, and the reason to use some alkalinity salts and some acid salts, was to adjust the chemicals composition on my water according with Brun's water..... unfortunately, it appears that those salts does not dissolve at all, or something else...

Additionally, I do not have any acid malt available...thus my only way to acidify water or mash would be increasing my caramel malts or using lactic acid....

RO water is actually perfect for brewing. It's a blank slate, and it's what many brewers (including me) start with.

You almost never would need to akalinity, but instead some acid. Phosphoric acid is a good one because it doesn't have a flavor impact and is very effective. Lactic acid is good as well, but it can have a definite flavor impact on the beer.

 

[The_Glue]

RO water is actually perfect for brewing. It's a blank slate, and it's what many brewers (including me) start with.

You almost never would need to akalinity, but instead some acid. Phosphoric acid is a good one because it doesn't have a flavor impact and is very effective. Lactic acid is good as well, but it can have a definite flavor impact on the beer.

I have highly alkaline water (380ppm alkalinity as CaCO3), for a 3gal batch i use about 5gal water, and treat the whole thing with acids and salts at once and then later i split it to about 2.5gal mash and 2.5gal sparge water. (for a brew around 1.070OG)

Long story short the BrewersFriend Advanced Mash Calc came up with 11ml of 75% phosphoric acid to add to my whole water (5gal) amount when brewing lighter beers. Is that still won't have a flavor impact?

 

[Yooper]

I have highly alkaline water (380ppm alkalinity as CaCO3), for a 3gal batch i use about 5gal water, and treat the whole thing with acids and salts at once and then later i split it to about 2.5gal mash and 2.5gal sparge water. (for a brew around 1.070OG)

Long story short the BrewersFriend Advanced Mash Calc came up with 11ml of 75% phosphoric acid to add to my whole water (5gal) amount when brewing lighter beers. Is that still won't have a flavor impact?

I don't know. I would probably dilute the water 50/50 with RO water, and go from that. With alkalinity that high, you may want to try lime softening or decarbing by boiling and racking off the precipitate. That's alot higher than my own alkaline water, and I bought an RO system so I wouldn't have to haul jugs of water home from the store all the time.

 

[The_Glue]

I don't know. I would probably dilute the water 50/50 with RO water, and go from that. With alkalinity that high, you may want to try lime softening or decarbing by boiling and racking off the precipitate. That's alot higher than my own alkaline water, and I bought an RO system so I wouldn't have to haul jugs of water home from the store all the time.

I did precipation by boiling in the past but now i am experimenting with acids because getting that much water to boil and then cool down took 2-3 hours for me.
I have not tasted any of my acid treated brews yet but i tasted some slight acid twang in my treated water which made me a bit worried.

 

[kstiglich]

I did my last batch with 100% filtered water with activated carbon and 1/4 campden tablet and it was great... I measured my water with a TDS and it has 270ppm. Before I tried with 100% RO and salts but I discover that salts will not dissolve at all and probably are producing me that astringency..

Anyway, I will try for lager beers 50% RO water and 50% filtered water to have a smoother profile.

 

[Yooper]

I did my last batch with 100% filtered water with activated carbon and 1/4 campden tablet and it was great... I measured my water with a TDS and it has 270ppm. Before I tried with 100% RO and salts but I discover that salts will not dissolve at all and probably are producing me that astringency..

Anyway, I will try for lager beers 50% RO water and 50% filtered water to have a smoother profile.

I'd probably go with 100% RO water for most lagers, at least ones lighter in color if not all of them.

5 grams (1 teaspoon) of calcium chloride in a 5 gallon batch would be the only addition I"d do for most lagers, besides acid to hit an appropriate mash pH.

 

[kstiglich]

Great Yopper,
My next brew will be a lager...I will follow your recommendation of 100% RO and 5 grams of Calcium chloride.