Are Sulfites Optional?

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smyrnaquince

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During racking and when bottling, are sulfites required or optional?

If I ferment the wine out completely, there shouldn't be anything for yeast to further consume, so I shouldn't need sulfites to stop the yeast. My understanding is that the alcohol in the wine would stop other nasties (yeast and/or bacteria) from growing. Are sulfites needed "just to be safe" or for some other reason?

If I do need them, I've heard to add them at every other racking, then again at bottling, at the rate (each time) of 1 Campden tablet per gallon. Does that sound right?

Right now, I've got a blackberry wine in the secondary, but will be making other wines, so this a a "question in general", not a question for a specific wine.

Thanks!
 
There are other things for microbes to consume - mainly malic acid which is a major biological energy source, also nitrogen. If you don't want to use so2 you should reduce your handling of the wine to a minimum and keep the wine at a stable temperature.
SO2 gets bound to pigments so in a wine like blackberry it will be inactivated over time anyway, but its still a good insurance policy.
 
jimmystewart, your friend that got a headache is sulfite sensitive as are my wife and I. There are wines still in the bottle being sold that are old, like over 100 years old, that I don't believe have sulfites added. And even if they do I will not add them to whatever I make even if it means I am stuck drinking young wines. better to have some go bad than not be able to enjoy it in my opinion. Guess I'll just have to pasteurize everything and keep it clean.
 
I'm not sure what the question is. (I know this is an old thread) My wines got a lot better when I started adding sulfites. Before that, they would be good at bottling-time and drinkable but not so good a couple months later. With sulfites, they are good when I bottle them and better with a few months aging.
 
This is still a good topic to discuss. I just made some wine from backyard grapes and I did not add sulfites. I did pasteurize. I think sulfites are overused and sometimes not necessary at all.
 
Honda88 said:
This is still a good topic to discuss. I just made some wine from backyard grapes and I did not add sulfites. I did pasteurize. I think sulfites are overused and sometimes not necessary at all.
Click to expand...
Sulfites have 2 uses: Antimicrobial and antioxidant

For pasteurized juice, you do not need sulfites before fermentation.
However, if you have UNpasteruized juice, sulfites used before fermentation to sanitize the must limit the possibility of wild microbes contributing flavor.

When aging/packaging, your wine WILL oxidize if you don't use sulfites. It's simply a matter of time and temperature (warmer temp contributes to more rapid staling).
Also, sulfites prevent wild microbes from changing the wine composition (e.g. MLF reducing acidity or AAB creating vinegar). Alcohol does not stop the wild microbes. Wild microbes are everywhere and can get into the wine regardless of whether you start with pasteurized juice.

If you're sensitive to sulfites and don't want to use them, that's fine, but you should avoid aerating (after fermentation) and drink young. Take care to make wine that tastes good young. Consider sterile filtering before packaging to reduce the possibility of spoilage from microbes.

Cheers
 
I have found that if you avoid aeration completely the wine tastes fizzy because all the suspended c02.
 
Are there alternative antioxidants? I have no problem pasteurizing as we like the aromas. did a cider and took the opportunity to spice it at the same time. SWMBO really liked that.

It also occurred to me to ask, will higher ABV will protect the wine from spoilage?
 
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Blacksmith1 said:
Are there alternative antioxidants? I have no problem pasteurizing as we like the aromas. did a cider and took the opportunity to spice it at the same time. SWMBO really liked that.

It also occurred to me to ask, will higher ABV will protect the wine from spoilage?
Click to expand...

Why do you think sulfites are what gave you the headache? Sulfite headaches have been thoroughly debunked. There is a small percentage of people allergic to them (difficulty breathing/allergic reaction) but the headache thing has been proved over and over as not being true.
 
mostly due to high sulfite wines giving us worse headaches. I guess it could be from the wines being too cheap.
and the wife does get a bit of breathing issues.
 
Blacksmith1 said:
mostly due to high sulfite wines giving us worse headaches. I guess it could be from the wines being too cheap.
and the wife does get a bit of breathing issues.
Click to expand...

Thanks. There are a bunch of things it can be.....but it's not the sulfites. You don't have to vworry about them (other than the other symptoms). Sulfites are in lunch meat, hot dogs, dried fruits, even in non-sulfated wine (it is also naturally occurring). Bakes goods often even have them. A lot of other every day foods have more than what you'll get from wine.
 
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Blacksmith1 said:
mostly due to high sulfite wines giving us worse headaches. I guess it could be from the wines being too cheap.
and the wife does get a bit of breathing issues.
Click to expand...


I'm more concerned that the cleaning agents used are in the wine. I dont know why but cheap liquor always makes me feel horrible. My homebrew has never given me a headache like some store bought products.
 
gotcha. critters might be dead but the air is gonna treat it like a sliced apple. so if I want a sweet sparkling wine this will work but I should still use the sulfites.
 
Q: Are there alternative antioxidants?
A: No, otherwise wine makers would use them!

Q: Will higher ABV will protect the wine from [microbial] spoilage?
A: To some extent, yes, but not entirely.

Q: Can cheap wine cause headaches?
A: Yes (OK, well, probably, since the science is not fully understood)! Poor quality fermentation produces many toxins besides ethanol such as methanol, other fusels, acetaldehyde, sulfide, other cogeners, etc.

A: I'm more concerned that the cleaning agents used are in the wine.
Q: What are you talking about? Fining agents are non-toxic.

Q: Would Pasteurizing in the bottle like in this thread work for wines or meads?
Sniped by @TechFanMD :)
A: Oxygen is enemy #1 of wine. You could steal a page from the brewer's playbook and use 22oz beer bottles (made to contain pressure unlike normal wine bottles, but similar in size to wine bottles), bottle carbonate with a measured amount of priming sugar/must (the yeast will consume some oxygen), and use oxygen-absorbing bottle caps. Wine packaged this way will probably be good for at least several months.
There will be sediment/lees in the bottle.

BTW, when you heat pasteurize your cider, those aromatics you smell are then lost for good. But if you don't mind then it's all good.

Hope this helps
 
helps a lot. so even if it's already bottled the heat still takes out some the.. "background" ? (for lack of a better descriptor)
 
RPh_Guy said:
I'm not sure what you're asking ..?
Click to expand...
I know that when making jellies and such much flavor and scent can be lost to the air while evaporating the liquids to concentrate the mixture. to combat this they invented a complicated pressure cooker that traps the essential bits and still gets the water out. So I figure if the bottle is corked and then pasteurized it "should" lock in the flavors and aromas. This is of course only a half baked theory based on my half assed knowledge of these generalized concepts...
 

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Blacksmith1 said:
I know that when making jellies and such much flavor and scent can be lost to the air while evaporating the liquids to concentrate the mixture. to combat this they invented a complicated pressure cooker that traps the essential bits and still gets the water out. So I figure if the bottle is corked and then pasteurized it "should" lock in the flavors and aromas. This is of course only a half baked theory based on my half assed knowledge of these generalized concepts...
Click to expand...
Never pasteurized bottles so I can't say for sure.. sorry.

To be clear, I would NOT recommend pasteurizing a wine bottle unless it's designed for sparking wine (champagne bottle) and you have it corked/caged.
I personally don't like bottle pasteurization because there is some risk of explosion.
 
RPh_Guy said:
Q: Are there alternative antioxidants?
A: No, otherwise wine makers would use them!

Q: Will higher ABV will protect the wine from [microbial] spoilage?
A: To some extent, yes, but not entirely.

Q: Can cheap wine cause headaches?
A: Yes (OK, well, probably, since the science is not fully understood)! Poor quality fermentation produces many toxins besides ethanol such as methanol, other fusels, acetaldehyde, sulfide, other cogeners, etc.

A: I'm more concerned that the cleaning agents used are in the wine.
Q: What are you talking about? Fining agents are non-toxic.

Q: Would Pasteurizing in the bottle like in this thread work for wines or meads?
Sniped by @TechFanMD :)
A: Oxygen is enemy #1 of wine. You could steal a page from the brewer's playbook and use 22oz beer bottles (made to contain pressure unlike normal wine bottles, but similar in size to wine bottles), bottle carbonate with a measured amount of priming sugar/must (the yeast will consume some oxygen), and use oxygen-absorbing bottle caps. Wine packaged this way will probably be good for at least several months.
There will be sediment/lees in the bottle.

BTW, when you heat pasteurize your cider, those aromatics you smell are then lost for good. But if you don't mind then it's all good.

Hope this helps
Click to expand...



Chemicals used to clean vessels.
 
Honda88 said:
Chemicals used to clean vessels.
Click to expand...

You can repeat this as many times as you want but where do you get the idea that wine is tainted by chemicals used to clean the equipment? Do you have a source? Personal experience?

These are highly regulated and highly tested facilities using food grade and FDA approved products. On top of that they are running enormous volumes of product through between cleaning so even if a trace were left it would be diluted an untraceable amount. I guarantee you consume more cleaning product residue from restaurants and the grocery deli department than you ever would from a commercial beverage operation.
 
TechFanMD said:
You can repeat this as many times as you want but where do you get the idea that wine is tainted by chemicals used to clean the equipment? Do you have a source? Personal experience?


These are highly regulated and highly tested facilities using food grade and FDA approved products. On top of that they are running enormous volumes of product through between cleaning so even if a trace were left it would be diluted an untraceable amount. I guarantee you consume more cleaning product residue from restaurants and the grocery deli department than you ever would from a commercial
Click to expand...

I like my beer 100 percent acid cleaner free but that's just me
 
Chemical! Chemicals! Stuff like sulfites and sulfates are very simple chemicals that are ubiquitous. I use StarSan and have learned to love the foam. I am very sensitive to wine, and have never gotten a headache from my own stuff. Bentonite is clay. Kieselsol is made from quartz; in my science days we sometimes purified stuff through columns of kieselguhr, which I think is the quartz itself. Chitosan is from crab and lobster shells. Isinglass (remember the song "Surrey with the Fringe on Top"? " With isinglass curtains y' can roll right down. In case there's a change in the weather..." Before vinyl (a pretty toxic substance) isinglass, made from fish bladders, was used. Unless you start seeing chemicals like n-n-acrylonitrile-blah-blah-blah, I don't think you should be too worried. Wine makes its own chemicals, hundreds of them. Some of them can cause headaches.
 
I was wondering about the isinglass. A friend has an old yacht with isinglass covers for the aft deck and fly bridge, I was wondering if the isinglass I saw referenced on this site was the same stuff.
 
TechFanMD said:
You do understand acids and bases right? The whole reason you use the acid cleaner is that even if any remains on the equipment it ends up neutralized.
Click to expand...

Yes I do understand what you are saying. Believe it or not, you aren't the only educated person on this forum. I dont have to use the same products everyone else uses..
 
Honda88 said:
Yes I do understand what you are saying. Believe it or not, you aren't the only educated person on this forum. I dont have to use the same products everyone else uses..
Click to expand...

Very true. But you also don't have to spread false information about those products just because you prefer not to use them.
 
Ok well if you are trying to standardize the homebrewing process you are in the wrong place. Lots of people here do things lots of different ways...You are the one who seems to be pushing their agenda. If you think I'm spreading false information by having a preference then whatever...
 
Honda88 said:
Ok well if you are trying to standardize the homebrewing process you are in the wrong place. Lots of people here do things lots of different ways...You are the one who seems to be pushing their agenda. If you think I'm spreading false information by having a preference then whatever...
Click to expand...

Not sure what agenda you mean. There are many great ways to sanitize. I'm not the one that implied that acid based cleansers can cause headaches in commercial wine.
 

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