This might be a dumb question, but is the Ardennes strain a saison strain or somewhat saison adjacent? I’m sitting here enjoying a wonderful glass of La Chouffe and I can’t help but make saison-like comparisons with this beer. Particularly a nice fresh pink peppercorn aroma I pick up from this beer. Not to mention it’s dry as a bone. One of my all time favorites for sure. Very nostalgic.
Ardennes Strain
- Thread starter Pehlman17
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
- Messages
- 5,853
- Reaction score
- 5,968
Not a dumb question. Here's my 2 cents. YMMV.
By Ardennes strain, I assume you mean Wyeast 3522 and/or WLP550. They are not saison strains. And I would hesitate to call then saison "adjacent," except that they happen to be from Belgium, and they do make some phenols, but then again, most belgian strains do. La Chouffe may seem dry as a bone, but it's the result of a fairly fermentable wort (perhaps including added sugar) and fairly high attenuating yeast. 3522/550 are not super high attenuators. They lack the STA-1 gene that saison strains and some other belgian strains have, so they can't ferment higher dextrins. The spice you're picking up may be, in part, due to added spices. There's always been some debate about whether or not Achouffe adds peppery spices to La Chouffe (they definitely do add coriander). I lean toward "yes," but OTOH Achouffe may have hit upon a precise mash and fermentation schedule to maximize phenols from their yeast. Wyeast 3522 and WLP550 do make some phenols, but in my experience they are rather subdued, relatively speaking. I've used both strains to make relatively "clean" easy drinkers (at low-ish fermentation temps).
All that said, I think there are some people who do call La Chouffe a saison. I guess it depends on how narrow or broad one's definition is.
By Ardennes strain, I assume you mean Wyeast 3522 and/or WLP550. They are not saison strains. And I would hesitate to call then saison "adjacent," except that they happen to be from Belgium, and they do make some phenols, but then again, most belgian strains do. La Chouffe may seem dry as a bone, but it's the result of a fairly fermentable wort (perhaps including added sugar) and fairly high attenuating yeast. 3522/550 are not super high attenuators. They lack the STA-1 gene that saison strains and some other belgian strains have, so they can't ferment higher dextrins. The spice you're picking up may be, in part, due to added spices. There's always been some debate about whether or not Achouffe adds peppery spices to La Chouffe (they definitely do add coriander). I lean toward "yes," but OTOH Achouffe may have hit upon a precise mash and fermentation schedule to maximize phenols from their yeast. Wyeast 3522 and WLP550 do make some phenols, but in my experience they are rather subdued, relatively speaking. I've used both strains to make relatively "clean" easy drinkers (at low-ish fermentation temps).
All that said, I think there are some people who do call La Chouffe a saison. I guess it depends on how narrow or broad one's definition is.
Very interesting. Maybe it was in fact a spice and not phenolics I was picking up on. I didn’t even consider that, haha.
I’ve never used the Ardennes strain in my home brewing, so I really only have the Achouffe beers for reference. I’m very familiar with using the typical Trappist strains (Chimay, Westmalle, etc.) and I always tend to get more fruit from those. So the level of pepperiness I was getting from La Chouffe sort of threw me. I hadn’t had it in a while and I think my brain was expecting a more “classic” Belgian blonde ale. Long story short, I finished the whole four pack.
good stuff!
I’ve never used the Ardennes strain in my home brewing, so I really only have the Achouffe beers for reference. I’m very familiar with using the typical Trappist strains (Chimay, Westmalle, etc.) and I always tend to get more fruit from those. So the level of pepperiness I was getting from La Chouffe sort of threw me. I hadn’t had it in a while and I think my brain was expecting a more “classic” Belgian blonde ale. Long story short, I finished the whole four pack.
good stuff!
And I have seen several "Saison" recipes that call for the Ardennes strain.
I have not brewed with it myself, but mostly because the descriptions do not seem to check the boxes that I look for in a Trappist style Belgian beer or in a Saison style beer. I did recently pick up a 4-pack of La Chouffe, and it is quite a nice beer. It is hard to tell how much of the character is from the yeast or from the coriander.
https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-single?id=163&type=YEAST&style_type=5
White Labs also claims this yeast (WLP545) is from Ardennes as well. Does anybody know how it differs from WLP550?
VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
- Messages
- 5,853
- Reaction score
- 5,968
I've never brewed with 545. Genetically (according Suregork's tree), it's in a cluster with several saison strains, and not at all near WLP550/Wyeast 3522.
That makes sense. IIRC @dmtaylor has on his yeast spreadsheet that WLP545 could perhaps be the strain that Lallemand sells as Farmhouse, their non-diastaticus saison strain.
WLP550/3522 has much more complexity than WLP545, and lower attenuation. @VikeMan is correct; these are on different wings of the genomic charts, not related at all, even though some of the characteristics are similar.
WLP550/3522 average apparent attenuation is approximately 85-87%. Even though it is technically not diastaticus... it might as well be. That's pretty high attenuation. It produces complex notes of pepper, clove, banana, pineapple, and other Belgiany stuff. It can be and has been used successfully in saison styles.
WLP545/3711/Belle has extremely high attenuation averaging closer to 95%. Commonly the FG will be 1.002 with this strain. This family of saison yeasts (the three are not exactly the same but extremely similar) has milder characteristics of pepper and lemon, much less expressive than many other Belgian yeasts. Some would say it's relatively tame and boring, although I myself like it a lot.
For an Achouffe clone, I'd reach for WLP550/3522 in a heartbeat. Expect high attenuation and dry finish, and wonderful flavors.
WLP550/3522 average apparent attenuation is approximately 85-87%. Even though it is technically not diastaticus... it might as well be. That's pretty high attenuation. It produces complex notes of pepper, clove, banana, pineapple, and other Belgiany stuff. It can be and has been used successfully in saison styles.
WLP545/3711/Belle has extremely high attenuation averaging closer to 95%. Commonly the FG will be 1.002 with this strain. This family of saison yeasts (the three are not exactly the same but extremely similar) has milder characteristics of pepper and lemon, much less expressive than many other Belgian yeasts. Some would say it's relatively tame and boring, although I myself like it a lot.
For an Achouffe clone, I'd reach for WLP550/3522 in a heartbeat. Expect high attenuation and dry finish, and wonderful flavors.
Thanks for the mention. However, I don't currently have WLP545 listed alongside Farmhouse, as the attenuation of Farmhouse is much lower at about 83-84% average. Maybe you have an older copy of my sheet. I'm thinking Farmhouse is likely more akin to WLP570. But of course this is only a wild-ass guess, too. WLP545 is almost identical to their Belle strain though.
Last edited:
Oops. You're right, my bad. It was Belle and not Farmhouse. I could have just opened the file and looked, but I like to live dangerously.
Last edited:
3522 has been my house Belgian strain for some time. I like the balance of the esters & phenols, especially in blondes (which is what I brew most often). I've sometimes seen WY3522 Ardennes & WLP510 Bastogne listed as options in recipes (since they both originated from the Ardennes region, I assume), but they are not the same and I much prefer 3522.
I love 3522 and have had great luck with it. Temperature and pitch rate have a big effect on the character. I get very fruity esters from either pitching low, e.g., less than 1 pkg for 5 gal > 1.055, or warmer temps, up to 72-74 F. Colder temps ~ 62-65 F give me spicier notes. Though, not clove like Hefeweize.
I overpitched with a bigger than normal starter once and got similar mild flavors as 1056 or US-05.
I prefer to start low ~64 and let it climb to about 72 over 4 days.
For saison, I’ve used Imperial Napoleon, which has STA1. It goes to bone dry on anything and gets very carbonated in the bottle.
I overpitched with a bigger than normal starter once and got similar mild flavors as 1056 or US-05.
I prefer to start low ~64 and let it climb to about 72 over 4 days.
For saison, I’ve used Imperial Napoleon, which has STA1. It goes to bone dry on anything and gets very carbonated in the bottle.
