Anyone tried Brewing a > 13% beer?

[binaryc0de]

My loving wife for my birthday got me a membership to beer of the month club (Rare Beer Club). So this idea came from a beer I got to try recently "Bink Grand Cru" a 13% Belgian Extra Strong Dark Ale from a brewery in Northeast Belgium. Loved it... It kinda tasted like a cross between a cream sherry and a porter. When it comes to unusually large brews I know that Dogfish head has 120 weighted in a 18% and Sam Adams has Utopias neither of which I have tried, but I've set my sights on brewing something ~15%. I haven't found very many talking about large beers like this but with a quick search I did find a recipe for 120 from the can you brew it 120 episode.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/can-you-brew-recipe-dogfish-head-120-minute-ipa-178063/

I'm not looking to brew 120 but I am looking to brew a super high gravity brew. Probably 8-9% with grain and dextrose additions during fermentation to get it up to 15%. Anyone have experience trying something like this?

This is what I'm playing with:

Original Gravity: 1.148
Terminal Gravity: 1.037
Color: 17.32
Alcohol: 15.07%
Bitterness: 146.5

Ingredients:
3.0 lb Dry Light Extract
13 lb Maris Otter Pale
1 lb 2-Row Carapils® Malt
1 lb American Caramel 20°L
1 lb Melanoidin Malt
1 lb Vienna Malt
0.75 lb Aromatic Malt
0.5 lb American Caramel 80°L
0.25 lb Honey Malt

.75 oz Columbus (15.0%) - added first wort, boiled 90.0 min
.75 oz Nugget (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 45.0 min
1 oz Centennial (10.0%) - added during boil, boiled 30.0 min
1 oz Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
1 oz Centennial (10.0%) - added during boil, boiled 10.0 min
1 oz Amarillo (8.5%) - added during boil, boiled 10.0 min
1 oz Crystal (3.3%) - added during boil, boiled 10.0 min
1 oz Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 5.0 min
1 oz Amarillo (8.5%) - added during boil, boiled 5.0 min
1 oz Centennial (10.0%) - added during boil, boiled 5.0 min
2.0 oz Cascade (5.5%) - steeped after boil
2.0 oz Cascade (5.5%) - added dry to secondary fermenter

5.0 lb Corn Sugar (Added over 14 days)

Start ferment with
2 packs of US-05
and Pitch a starter of
White Labs WLP099 Super High Gravity Ale
after 7 days.

 

[Clonefarmer]

Getting big beers to attenuate fully is the biggest hurdle. Here's a few tips that may help.

Oxygenate or at least aerate very well.

Monitor mash temp carefully. I would suggest a long, low mash.

Add the DME and corn sugar after the main fermentation slows. The lower OG will be easier on the yeast.

Make a big enough starter. Pitch the high gravity starter first. Hold the US-05 on reserve.

 

[Revvy]

Barleywines easily can run up to 13%....Mine is 12.5% and if I push it an add some amalaze I'll probably end up around 14%. The story of the brew is in my sigline....

 

[brodie113]

That looks like a lot of specialty grains for such a high gravity beer. Maybe cut back on those?

Also, I would use the US05 first which is similar to what Sean did for CYBI. Then later when the US05 tops out, the high gravity yeast can work on the simple sugar- did I remember that right?

 

[brodie113]

Oh yeah. Clonefarmer - why do you suggest to pitch the high gravity yeast first?

 

[Clonefarmer]

Oh yeah. Clonefarmer - why do you suggest to pitch the high gravity yeast first?

So the high gravity yeast has oxygen for it's reproductive phase. You won't be able to aerate for the re pitch.

 

[binaryc0de]

yeah, I was just going off of the CYBI about adding US05 first. What is the tolerance on US05? I thought it might need to come first in order to survive and pitch the higher tolerant yeast when US05 is dieing down.

 

[binaryc0de]

I could pitch the high gravity yeast first and then pitch another starter during fermentation.

 

[brodie113]

I think the US 05 will go to 11-13% or so. I have had a 11.5% before from a repitched slurry.

In the CYBI, didn't they elude to the fact that the primary yeast will contribute most of the fermentation flavors so you want to have the US 05 in first. That being said, I haven't used that 099 before so maybe its fine.

Maybe check out the whitelabs site for suggestions/reviews on 099?

 

[VegasBrew]

All being said, the 05 will have a harder time climing the hill after repitch....I believe they will die out before all the sugar is added. DFH does the high gravity yeast second, when Rissian River makes Pliney the Elder, it goes second....it is for a reason.

VB

 

[Poobah58]

My wife got me a years subscription to the BOTMC 20+ years ago. I have not had a BMC beer since!

 

[jmhart]

I've got a black DIPA bottle conditioning right now that's 13.13%.

Step mashed: 30 min @ 122F, 60 min @ 161F, batch sparged @ 168

Used Denny's Favorite, which Wyeast list at 10% max, but it finished the beer out at 1.017 down from 1.120.

 

[binaryc0de]

bottle conditioning at 13.13% wow... That actually was another concern of mine. At 15% is bottle conditioning/carb advisable. I didn't want to spend a lot of $ on this to have the yeast crap out on me in the bottle before it carbs. So that's why I was looking at maybe keg and force carb.

 

[jmhart]

bottle conditioning at 13.13% wow... That actually was another concern of mine. At 15% is bottle conditioning/carb advisable. I didn't want to spend a lot of $ on this to have the yeast crap out on me in the bottle before it carbs. So that's why I was looking at maybe keg and force carb.

I'll know it a week or so. I've bottle conditioned an 11% without issue.

 

[brodie113]

For bottle conditioning you'll want to pitch more yeast as extra insurance. I usually get a pack of us05 or Cooper dry yeast to rehydrate and mix with in the bottling bucket. The last thing you want is a whole batch of sweet, flat beer in bottles! The bottle conditioning will probably take longer than normal even with the new yeast - I have waited a few months for some batches.

If you have the capability to force carb then bottle, I recommend it. With a high abv beer like that, dialing in the carbonation to just the right level will be important.

 

[kanzimonson]

Have you listened to the Jamil Show for Dogfish 120? That's got a world of tips for doing something like this on the homebrew scale. In their case, Sean fermented the beer in a conical, which allowed him to dump yeast into a pitcher, add dextrose, whisk it up, and then add to the top of the conical. The great thing about this is that it wakes the yeast back up with a good bit of oxygen.

I don't have a conical but I was thinking about a method where I could do something similar: I use Better Bottles for fermentation, and I was thinking I could push a racking cane through a carboy cap down to the layer of yeast. Then add a little bit of CO2 to suck some of the yeast up and out. Then you could stir around in a pitcher and add it back to the carboy... the biggest question is could you apply enough pressure to push the yeast through the tube?

I guess at worst, you could stir the yeast up a little, and then pull out some of the beer itself.

 

[BrewNinja1]

When making Dark Night of the Soul RIS I hit around 13% with 1272 yeast. I made a huge starter first though.

 

[binaryc0de]

Yeah I just finished listening to it... One of the questions I had was actually one thing they touched on. Why 5 days of O2. I thought that would oxygenate the beer, but they mentioned to do it before pitching the yeast (obviously) and then once again after 12-18 hours. I'm not sure if I need to go to that extent or not since I'm wanting to end around 15-18%, but looks like it wouldn't hurt. As far picking up yeast I ferment in carboys. So I was considering lightly swirling the carboy with a sanitized racking cane to get the yeast re-suspended before pulling a sample with my wine thief to add the sugar to.

 

[kanzimonson]

They did a series of episodes on Brewstrong about high gravity beers, and one of the things they addressed was multiple additions of oxygen. For the series, they loosely defined "high gravity" as anything over 1.060, but they really used this as the mark where you need to start thinking about these things. For me, I'd say around 1.080 is where you really should be slightly modifying your process to deal with high gravity.

So anyway, they stressed the importance of lots of oxygen because the yeast are going to need very strong cell walls late in fermentation to keep the alcohol out. I know a lot of people will do an oxygen addition every 6 hours until fermentation starts, regardless of the size of the beer. In your case, this is probably imperative.

And I think your swirled up yeast method will work at least some.

 

[wiescins]

Subscribed

 

[binaryc0de]

Waiting on a friend to help with the brew day. So it looks like I'll possibly be brewing this one up in April. I'll update when I brew this.

 

[scottland]

smuth10 has a thread going here where he is cloning DFH 120 - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/dogfish-head-120-min-ipa-clone-224348/

I've been thinking about doing a super high gravity beer this up-coming winter, to drink winter 2012/13. Personally I would:

A. Conicals would make the process easy. Conicals, unfortunetly, are expensive. Many people ferment in bottling buckets, so I was thinking of using a bottling bucket, and dumping out the yeast/beer that way.

Every day, twice a day, draw off half a gallon of yeast and beer, mix in the hops and dextrose, then dump that back into the top of the beer.

B. I would use your desired yeast for the first 3-4 days of fermentation, then pitch in the 099 yeast.

C. This is probably a beer that would benefit from starting off in the 65* range with something like US-05, then slowly ramp it up to around 68-70 near the end.

 

[scottland]

So I've been thinking about the DFH 120 minute:

You start with a beer that's 100% malt, around 1.100 OG. Your US-05, or whatever munch away on all that maltose for a few days. A few days in, you add the Super High Gravity yeast, and start adding the dextrose additions.

I have to imagine at this point, the yeast say: forget about the maltose, we've got dextrose to eat now. So you continue to feed the fermentation dextrose for the next 10-14 days, at which point the yeast are spent once the beer starts getting to 15-18% ABV. Once the Dextrose is consumed, if there is residue maltose left, I'm not sure the yeast will eat that that this point. I think they just drop out of suspension.

My point is, i've noticed people have trouble getting these HUGE beers to attenuate. What if the problem is that we need to give the inital yeast, or even the Super High gravity yeast time to finish up the maltose before we start adding dextrose. I know that's a dangerous propisition, since even at this point we're talking about a 9-10ABV beer, and it seems like once a fermentation like this stops, there won't be a way to re-start it.

I'm thinking when I try this beer, i'll definitely be watching the fermentation very carefully. Not only at the end, but also at the end of the first yeast strain. I'm actually kind of excited to make this beer. I think I might try a batch here this spring.

 

[binaryc0de]

I have to imagine at this point, the yeast say: forget about the maltose, we've got dextrose to eat now.

That's a good point... I haven't thought about it that way. Maybe this needs to be researched further. Isn't dextrose a lot easier to ferment than maltose? If so basically we would be making the yeast lazy.

 

[kanzimonson]

I'm thinking when I try this beer, i'll definitely be watching the fermentation very carefully. Not only at the end, but also at the end of the first yeast strain. I'm actually kind of excited to make this beer. I think I might try a batch here this spring.

I think your theory probably has some truth in it, but I'm also hesitant to declare any definites when it comes to our yeasty friends.

For example, we say "in the presence of oxygen, yeast will respirate rather than ferment because it's a more efficient metabolic action." But then I remember reading about the Crabtree Effect, which stated something along the lines of "regardless of the presence of oxygen, yeast will, always be performing some sort of fermentation when the gravity is above 1.040."

So it's stuff like this that throws a minor wrench into your theory. Statistically, there's always going to be some yeast cells in there that are still secreting the necessary enzymes to break down larger sugars into stuff they can use, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear they're a small population.

 

[binaryc0de]

Just to be safe... I wonder if waiting to add the sugar until the first yeast strain is about 75% of the way done would help ferment more maltose before adding the dextrose additions. I could either assume 75% attenuation and figure the gravity to start adding the dextrose that way or check the FG of the starter on the high gravity yeast. Of course the attenuation may be greater on the starter than US-05 would be.

 

[scottland]

kanzimonson, I definitely see what you're saying, but my point is: Our yeast munch on our 100% maltose wort for the first few days, they're happy. Then we throw dextrose their way, and I think we can all agree they are going to forget about the maltose while the dextrose is available. They won't bother produce the enzyme to break down maltose, if there is an easier to break down sugar available. So they eat dextrose for 2 weeks straight.

At this point, i wouldn't call them lazy, but now they are probably pretty tired, and sitting in a 15-19% ABV beer, i doubt they are going to switch back to fermenting maltose, i bet they just floc out, and that's where the high FGs are coming from that people are seeing.

I'm going to try this beer here in a month or two mainly because I'm really intrigued now. My plan is:
Pitch 2-3 packs of US-05 into the inital 1.100 or so wort. Keep the US05 as happy as I can, and see if I can't get it down to under 1.030 before the krausen falls. At this point fermentation should be slowing, so I'll immediately pitch a HUGE starter of the WLP099, and some dextrose to hopefully get the 05 going for at least another day.

The tough part is going to be timing it right. I want to add the WLP099, and the first dose of dextrose, before the krausen of US05 falls. But I definitely want to let the US05 attenuate out as much of the initial maltose as possible. We'll see. I'm definitely excited to give this a try, and hoping I can get a 18% ABV beer with the FG in the 30's somewhere.

 

[kanzimonson]

The wort is not 100% maltose. I let my friend borrow Yeast but I believe there's a page in there that breaks down a typical wort by sugar type, by percentage. The majority is maltose, but only somewhere around 50-60%.

If there were no unfermentable sugars, our beers would attenuate 100% every time, right?

There's also something to be said for the ease of fermenting maltose, and again I think Yeast has the answer. Some sugars (including maltose I think) are taken into the yeast cell where they are broken down. Some sugars must be broken down by secreting enzymes outside of the cell. I think I remember reading that it's easier to consume the maltose because it makes it inside the cell.

Sorry I don't have the book handy for some citation here... anybody?

 

[binaryc0de]

In the end do you think that amylase enzyme would help get the FG of a big beer like this down or will the yeast be too tired and adding it won't make any difference?

 

[kanzimonson]

I guess in theory it should work... the more simple the sugar, the more likely it is to be fermented out.

I'm personally against adding amylase to the fermentor. Maybe it's like other people have problems with adjuncts, but I just feel like it's getting too far away from what it means to make beer. You gotta have some residual body and sweetness.