• Please visit and share your knowledge at our sister communities:
  • If you have not, please join our official Homebrewing Facebook Group!

    Homebrewing Facebook Group

Anyone read brewing classic styles? Yeast question.

Homebrew Talk

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Thedude907

Active Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
31
Reaction score
2
Okay so I've been reading classic styles. I know this should fit under yeast and fermentation, but I wanted to ensure a response. Most (95%) of the recipes in the book call for X amount of grams of dry yeast or 1.5,2,3,&4 bags of wet yeast packets or "proper" stater. The multipul bags of wet yeast seems off to me. I listen to brew song pod cast. He has his credentials no doubt. Still I just can't get past his yeast recommendations for these beers.
And further more a question how do you know when a stater has a high enough yeast cell count. It seems like it's kind of an eye balling it.

I guess my concern is the 5 beers I've made have no higher gravity then 1.07 OH and only needed one packet. And been fine. But I don't want to under pitch and don't want to over pitch. And I want to know how much yeast to pitch for certian gravies. I guess get a book on yeast and learn.

Anyone have any advice/insight on this?
 
Use an online yeast calculator. I use brewersfriend and mr.malty to get an average, they have not failed me yet.
 
The other option is to use slurry from a previous batch. Aside from being basically free, its a great way to get a decent cell count. Mrmalty yeast calculator does a pretty good job of estimating, although you can generally get away with less than the amount suggested.
 
This is a bug bear of mine. I keep hearing 'over pitching is just as bad as under pitching' which I disagree with because if you over pitch you get the beer just not what you might have wanted, if you under pitch you might not actually get beer at all.

Also who defines over and under pitching? The preference of the brewer comes into this. Maybe you are looking to under pitch to emphasise ester production during a longer lag phase? Maybe you are looking to over pitch because you want to do the opposite or you need the beer to finish particularly quickly? Maybe you are working at higher or lower temperature ranges and need to manipulate the pitch rate to prevent the yeast coming over? Maybe you propose a secondary fermentation, a lager, an extended cold crash, a long conditioning process? Even so you aren't going to step too wildly out of a standard margin unless you have the luxury of doing something truly weird.

The reason why professional advice looks very heavy on the yeast is because primary fermentation is complete in 2-5 days for a standard ale under normal conditions. Home brewers have a relative luxury of time compared to commercial brewers and thus you can do some weirder things though you've got to start somewhere. Pitching rates as viable cells/ml need to scale with gravity. Pitch 0.75 to 1 million cells per ml of wort multiplied by degrees plato as a guideline unless you have other plans for a standard ale under standard conditions.

Eyeball this by reading the manufacturers spec sheets for your yeast and scale accordingly. Don't forget to apply a fudge factor for viability. How can you improve on this? If you really get into maintaining and reusing your own strains get a microscope, haemocytometer and start performing cell counts. If you are using slurry and you do not have access to this equipment you'll have to estimate based on weight which luckily is quite often good enough. Why do people make starters? Because it ensures you've got 'about enough based on experience'.

Under pitch and you risk a long lag phase with a risk of contamination as well as unexpected flavours. You might not have enough yeast left to finish the fermentation in bigger beers or complete bottle or cask conditioning if appropriate and it will be difficult to crop. I'd also anticipate greater genetic drift over time due to greater number of divisions. Over pitch and you might get unexpected flavours, an aggressive fermentation requiring extra room in the fermenter, too high a cell count in the packaged beer with associated clarity and autolysis issues and longer term viability issues when cropping.

If you can't accurately measure everything the key is to start somewhere and remain consistent. If you are unhappy with the results you can start to adjust one variable at a time until you reach your goals if you remain consistent with your practices you'll get to the same place in the end.

I top crop on the second day of fermentation and chill the yeast. I decant off any liquid and consolidate the solid yeast. The next day I decant off any liquid and weigh out. At the point of cropping it is approx 4.4 x 10^7 cells per ml at 92-94% viability. It typically loses 5% viability per day in the fridge. We pitch 3-4 days a week so it doesn't hang around long.

Ideal pitch rates allow 2-3 division of cells before the yeast fully exhausts oxygen and trace elements within the wort during the reproductive phase. It then must go anaerobic and start primary fermentation. You need this division not only for certain flavours to be produced, but for the yeast to have a range of age across generations in order for enough to stay alive long enough to complete the fermentation and any secondary fermentation and conditioning.

If you pitch all the yeast required for the fermentation at the beginning then it'll quickly consume the oxygen and trace elements and you'll be beginning the fermentation with yeast already close to the end of its life span. Any daughter cells produced will not have access to nutrients required to prepare for fermentation. You risk an incomplete fermentation, a failure to condition and potential issues with flocculation as dead cells do not clump together.

That said it'll still be beer.
 
IMO, 1.070 would require multiple packs of either dry or liquid yeast. Use an online calculator to determine how much. MrMalty has a tab for dry yeast. I use this one for liquid yeast: http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

You have to use the calculators to get a reasonable guesstimate of cell counts. You won't get a truly accurate count without a microscope and doing a count.

The aim is to get close to the optimum cell count for a given OG. You will never get it exact.

In an ale a 1.070 gravity beer needs about 254 billion cells. A very fresh pack of most liquid yeasts contain only 100 billion cells, thus you need multiple packs or a starter.
 
Great answers/feedback. Thank you guys for the insight. I'm trying to pay more attention to my fermenration process. I usaly pitch and forget. And then check it here and there. I've noticed my temp getting to low 70s for ales. Tasted great. Like i said on trying to keep the temp mid 60s so I'll be using a swamp cooler.

I'll probably be using a yeast calculator. I don't mind buying multipul packs for high gravies. If a beer doesn't require more then one pack I'd really hate to buy two just to pitch say 1.5 packs.

Thanks again guys/gals. You guys rock. I love these forums.
 
The whole 'needs 1.5 packs when have only 1' situation is usually why people start to make starters. They are eyeballing it, but are making the extra effort to get closer to optimum without having to commit to that extra packet.

You don't even have to go particularly nuts with a erlenmeyer flask and magnetic stirrer (all the cool kids use vibratory plates now though) . I sanitise a plastic pop bottle. Boil a kettle and let it cool to the point where it won't eat the bottle. Add a little DME (20g in 200ml works) close it up and place it in the fridge or freezer to bring it down to a more reasonable temperature. Add your yeast, up to you if you choose to hydrate it if dry. I squeeze the air out of the bottle and shake it up every now and then and gas it off carefully as needed. You can always leave it with the lid slightly loose and some plastic wrap over the end if you are paranoid. You are already doing better than nothing.
 
Dry yeast is about $3/pack..building starters does cost something in DME and time, easier to just use another pack of dry and not worry about possible contamination then to make starters out of it. Do take the time to rehydrate properly per manufacturers directions though.
 
Dry yeast is about $3/pack..building starters does cost something in DME and time, easier to just use another pack of dry and not worry about possible contamination then to make starters out of it. Do take the time to rehydrate properly per manufacturers directions though.

I might be biased because I've 25kg of DME in a drum from a couple of years ago with some bricks of silica gel so the stuff might as well be free for me now, but I'd still go with make a starter if I thought I needed 1.x packets and I already had 1.

I'm terrible for finding ways to make my life harder for the sake of saving small amounts of money however. So while I'd like to think it isn't about the cost maybe I've just convinced myself the cheap way is the best way.

I can understand another packet is easier, but I'd point out that not all yeast is $3 per packet, not all yeast is easy to get, not all brew days go exactly to plan, not all yeast comes in packets and sometimes you've got to work with what you've currently got on hand.

For me reusing yeast is a great way to not only save quite a bit of money, but develop skills in yeast handling as an interesting part of the process. It is a step up from just pitching dry yeast that leads to confidently handling liquid yeast, rescuing a stalled fermentation by pitching a healthy fermentation at high krausen, culturing yeast from cans or bottles, maintaining a personal yeast collection, building a little lab etc. These things may bore you to death, but leads to adventures in mixed cultures, wild and spontaneous fermentation, plating out something that smells like death from the inside of your work gloves and so on.
 
I might be biased because I've 25kg of DME in a drum from a couple of years ago with some bricks of silica gel so the stuff might as well be free for me now,

Haha ok that's a lot of DME I'd be looking for ways to use it up too! I buy DME a pound at a time just to make starters and it's not cheap that way. Plus I don't store it as well as you are doing so it's messy nasty stuff every time I get it out. I do harvest and reuse yeast frequently I am budget sensitive. i do build up starters from liquid years and I do make vitality starters per the brulosophy guys frequently. But I draw the line at building starters from dry yeast.

Aside from cost another nice feature of dry yeast is it permits spontaneous brewing. No need to plan a starter and no issue pushing brew day back a couple days when life has other plans. I always keep 5-10 packs of dry yeast on hand knowing that if a brew day offers I'm ready.
 
Mr malty is Jamil Z...same guy as brewing classic styles. He is also co-author of the yeast book along with Chris white (white labs)....

Consistent proponent of pitching lots and lots of yeast.

I bought that book.
Loads of good information, some of which the average home brewer truly won't have a real need to use on a regular basis. The first part of the book is excellent but the finishing chapters on how to select and utilize lab equipment for cultures and growing is a bit much. If you "grow your own" there's lots to cherry-pick through, though.
My brew shop has a great selection of White Labs yeast and this is what I buy. All my beers use starters and rarely go beyond a gravity of 1.050, so no real need to "over pitch" extra yeast as it can be expensive - especially if you don't tend to harvest and re-use. Personally, I'd recommend harvesting and re-use because some second and third generation yeasts are more vigorous than what came from the original packet.
 
Yeast management if you will is on my horizon. I have 5 brew under my belt. And as stated had success with dumping in a smack pack or just dumping dry yeast. I see a benifit from pitching yeasts properly. I've been doing quite a bit of homework. And yeast and water chemistry are defiantly my weak points at this time.

My lhbs sells wet yeast for about 10 bucks a pack and to buy two so I could use 1.5 gets me. I tend to be cheap at times. I think the obvious answer is to make a starter and rock and roll.

So much to learn with all these rabbit holes. I feel like I'm trying to learn too much in too short of time. Then again when I'm bored I find myself looking for new information in brewing.
 
I don't want to under pitch and don't want to over pitch. And I want to know how much yeast to pitch for certian gravies.
Anyone have any advice/insight on this?

MrMalty.com is very conservative. I think he's got the right idea but overpitches by approximately a factor of 2 in most cases.

For liquid yeast, I slide the bar to where minimum number of packets is required, then make a starter based on his recommendation but rounded DOWN.

For dry yeast and an ale of "normal" gravity around 1.050-1.065, a half pack of yeast is plenty for 5 gallons. For a stronger ale or for a lager, use a whole pack. You really never need more than 1 pack unless you're brewing much more than 5 gallons or you're making something very strong like in excess of 1.110.

Oh... and for any Belgian styles or German hefeweizen, fuggettaboddit. You actually SHOULD severely UNDERPITCH for those styles if you want them to taste like anything. About 1/4 pack is plenty for 5 gallons of normal gravity Belgian or hefe.

:mug:
 
Back
Top