Anyone moved to full-time brewing?

[CenturyStanding]

This is something I've put a lot of research into recently. Laws are different in every state, but New York has quite a few small nano-breweries popping up, like Barrier Brewing (who brew with a 1BBL Blichmann System) and Blind Bat Brewing (who started brewing 10 gallon Sabco batches and recently bought a 3BBL System).

In New York, it's easy to do because a microbrewery can legally self-distribute and circumvent the dreaded three-tier system. You'll want an automated brewing system of sorts and a temperature controlled area for fermentation and conditioning, to ensure consistency from batch to batch. And you'll need a commercial plot (most states won't license a home brewery). And about a year or more in paperwork.

It takes time/effort/money, but it's not a difficult industry to get into otherwise.

 

[ColonelForbin]

i'd suggest doing a lot of reading and a lot of brewing. After a few years of homebrew experience, talk to some nearby breweries and see if they need help. Even if it's volunteering, it will get you some experience.

I would suggest reading a few articles at www.ibd.org.uk look at the "learning" tab under "learning resources". I could forward you the pdf of all the articles in one if you pm me with your email address. It was suggested to me by the admissions department at siebel. It's a lot of reading, but if you get through the whole thing, you will have learned a lot.

Another good read would be the practical handbook for the specialty brewer series. It's expensive, but a wealth of knowledge. You can find those at www.mbaa.com

i think right now, those books will be way over your head, but after a few years of brewing experience, you should have no problem.

Good luck!

great link! Thanks!

 

[beerisgood]

The tshirt and beer thing is like a hooker that charges for the condom then sleeps with you for free.

However, there needs to be a workaround for the thirsty friend scenerio. They should be able to pay for the cost of the beer. As long as no profit is made it should be all good.

 

[DKershner]

However, there needs to be a workaround for the thirsty friend scenerio. They should be able to pay for the cost of the beer. As long as no profit is made it should be all good.

Once you have made revenue (not profit) you need to file taxes. In order to file taxes, you need a business license. In order to get a business license for alcohol sales, you need a brewery license.

And here we are, back to square one. You cannot sell beer.

Look, I have thought about it as much as the next guy, but the fact of the matter is that you literally cannot sell the stuff except legitimately without taking some kind of risk legally. If you are thinking about going pro...start with the basics. Fill out the paperwork, get a very small warehouse in your town, stick your brew stand there, and start your business. The real costs don't come in until you have a full production brewery, so if 500 bucks a year and a small warehouse are going to stop you, you probably shouldn't be starting a brewery anyway. And, if you are in a non 3tier state, sell as much as you want to your friends, and even legally!

 

[tunoffun]

So, after reading this forum, I just had to do a little research. Just because I DON'T want to be doing anything illegal. I found out that I can brew up to 200 gallons a year (since I have other people in the house) and I'm right around that. I'm not allowed to have a homebrew party and charge people anything to get in. BUT, I can legally give my beer away to people over 21. I guess my thoughts on the whole issue is (yes, I'm trying to find a loophole) that I'm actually selling another product. If I was to sell the t-shirt to someone and then give them some homebrew a week later, no one would ask questions. But because I'm giving it to them at the same time, it looks fishy. I don't understand that. You guys know what I'm doing because I've told you, but no one else would think twice. Eh, we'll see if it comes back to bite me in the ass someday.

The ATF / IRS can ruin your life through an investigation alone. If they ever did take interest in your proposed activities, your life would be significantly altered for the worse long before you had your day in court... if you ever got to court at all.

I certainly don't have a moral problem with what you're considering, but some things might be better left unsaid on the internet.

I'd guess the chances of the feds taking interest in something like this are pretty slim, but the aforementioned agencies don't exactly have the best record for acts of understanding. It seems that the 'new & improved' pardigm in law enforcement isn't to focus resources on the most heinous crimes, but rather those that are easiest to prosecute.

 

[beerisgood]

It seems that most of my thirsty friends are getting interested in homebrewing so its becoming a non-issue.

I even offer to teach them on my equipment so they can give it a try and only have to buy the ingredients.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

lol.... these threads always get me. I am sure you will never get in trouble for your illegal sale of your beer. Only other people get in trouble for doing illegal things.

 

[beerisgood]

If I wanted to get into illegally selling controlled substances I would go with something with a higher profit margin.

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

Okay, the legality of selling beer without a license is not under question here. I'm not denying that. I'm just thinking it's a bit rediculous that I can't require my friends to pay me at least what I payed to make it. I realize the law is law...but it's dumb. It's not like I'm selling crack, so bringing up controlled substances is a bit over the top. And it's not that I'm even trying to MAKE money off of this. It's not a business in any way.

I'm not opposed to letting my friends come over to my house and have a few beers, but it got a little nuts after awhile. They would be over every weekend, and I would go through a keg in one night. I wasn't charging at first, so it was starting to cost me a lot of money. I decided that I couldn't keep supporting my own hobby if I didn't get some compensation. That's all I'm doing. I'm not selling to the whole town.

So... another question since what I'm doing seems to be so wrong in peoples eyes... What if my friends bought the ingredients for the beer and I brewed it for them? Is that illegal? Because the way people make it seem is that I would still be breaking the law. And...if that's the case, then none of my friends will ever get beer for their birthdays or parties because I'm having to pay for everything myself. It makes no sense.

 

[tunoffun]

So... another question since what I'm doing seems to be so wrong in peoples eyes... What if my friends bought the ingredients for the beer and I brewed it for them? Is that illegal? Because the way people make it seem is that I would still be breaking the law. And...if that's the case, then none of my friends will ever get beer for their birthdays or parties because I'm having to pay for everything myself. It makes no sense.

You're not brewing it for them... you're brewing it WITH them. It's a group activity. Their responsibility is to provide the ingredients. That way it's legal w/o question (at least in regards to federal law).

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

Well, I suppose for the time being, I'll just have to brew it with people. I don't want to hurt my chances of getting a license in the future because of some stupid law.

 

[beerisgood]

Okay, the legality of selling beer without a license is not under question here. I'm not denying that. I'm just thinking it's a bit rediculous that I can't require my friends to pay me at least what I payed to make it. I realize the law is law...but it's dumb. It's not like I'm selling crack, so bringing up controlled substances is a bit over the top. And it's not that I'm even trying to MAKE money off of this. It's not a business in any way.

I'm not opposed to letting my friends come over to my house and have a few beers, but it got a little nuts after awhile. They would be over every weekend, and I would go through a keg in one night. I wasn't charging at first, so it was starting to cost me a lot of money. I decided that I couldn't keep supporting my own hobby if I didn't get some compensation. That's all I'm doing. I'm not selling to the whole town.

So... another question since what I'm doing seems to be so wrong in peoples eyes... What if my friends bought the ingredients for the beer and I brewed it for them? Is that illegal? Because the way people make it seem is that I would still be breaking the law. And...if that's the case, then none of my friends will ever get beer for their birthdays or parties because I'm having to pay for everything myself. It makes no sense.

Alcohol is a controlled substance.

No one on here has said that it was wrong. They have just pointed out that its illegal and you are posting about it on a public forum. Keep it on the DL.

 

[DKershner]

So... another question since what I'm doing seems to be so wrong in peoples eyes...

You are definitely taking all of this the wrong way, and it seems personally as well. So far, I haven't heard anyone question the morality or 'wrongness' of what you are doing. What we are telling you is that what you are doing is illegal.

As for the scenario you brought up, tunoffun is right about the federal law. You would have to check your state laws for that one. I can tell you it is currently illegal in Oregon.

 

[beerisgood]

What if I provide the beer and they bring steaks?

Also, at least in my area, this is about as illegal as going 5mph over the limit so I'm only in this discussion cause I'm bored at work.

I hope I'm not coming across as a jerk.

 

[DKershner]

Oh, and FWIW, buying a keg from a distributor and charging for cups at the door is also illegal.

It is VERY hard to recoup party costs legally. You usually need to hire a dispensing service to come and dispense your drinks for you (of course, not plausible in your house for a small group of friends).

I'd say either you get used to the fact of being poor, stop giving your stuff away, or come up with a system that is so disconnected that you couldn't possibly be caught.

Or...just stop posting about it on public forums.

 

[DKershner]

What if I provide the beer and they bring steaks?

Also, at least in my area, this is about as illegal as going 5mph over the limit so I'm only in this discussion cause I'm bored at work.

I hope I'm not coming across as a jerk.

You'd be hard pressed to find someone who would prosecute this, but the legal argument against you would be this is a form of bartering for a controlled substance.

And yes, comparing it to 5mph over the speed limit is a good analogy if that were a crime and not a violation.

 

[dozer217]

Remember this is supposed to be a hobby and fun. I find as much satisfaction in friends and family enjoying my beer and giving a large bit of it away as drinking it all myself. If your friends are a bunch of power drinkers or your throwing a large party every weekend then either stop having people over or just enjoy the fun and maybe next time make it a brewing party where they pay for ingredients which is perfectly legal. Oh and at $20 for a $2 shirt and a 6 pack, you're making some coin.

 

[Pivot]

Okay, the legality of selling beer without a license is not under question here. I'm not denying that. I'm just thinking it's a bit rediculous that I can't require my friends to pay me at least what I payed to make it. I realize the law is law...but it's dumb. It's not like I'm selling crack, so bringing up controlled substances is a bit over the top. And it's not that I'm even trying to MAKE money off of this. It's not a business in any way.

I'm not opposed to letting my friends come over to my house and have a few beers, but it got a little nuts after awhile. They would be over every weekend, and I would go through a keg in one night. I wasn't charging at first, so it was starting to cost me a lot of money. I decided that I couldn't keep supporting my own hobby if I didn't get some compensation. That's all I'm doing. I'm not selling to the whole town.

So... another question since what I'm doing seems to be so wrong in peoples eyes... What if my friends bought the ingredients for the beer and I brewed it for them? Is that illegal? Because the way people make it seem is that I would still be breaking the law. And...if that's the case, then none of my friends will ever get beer for their birthdays or parties because I'm having to pay for everything myself. It makes no sense.

In your original post you didnt come across as just someone who wanted their friends to help finance a hobby they all enjoy. it looked like you were trying to sell beer to people to make money off of it by selling them t-shirts, and giving them a free 12 pack alongside.

"In the broadest sense, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual"

By selling t-shirts with a free beer with it, you are defrauding the government out of the money that they would be getting from the beer sold; that they are entitled to. Its obvious that the buyer isnt really paying for the t-shirt in the end. you said yourself they only cost a few bucks to make. If it somehow made it to trial, I dont think you could convince them that the real product was actually the t-shirt. But it most likely wouldnt go that far. Its a pretty minor operation, and your not likely to get caught, but it is in fact illegal, and you should probably realize that if you chose to continue doing it. But whatever floats your boat anyway

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

In your original post you didnt come across as just someone who wanted their friends to help finance a hobby they all enjoy. it looked like you were trying to sell beer to people to make money off of it by selling them t-shirts, and giving them a free 12 pack alongside.

"In the broadest sense, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual"

By selling t-shirts with a free beer with it, you are defrauding the government out of the money that they would be getting from the beer sold; that they are entitled to. Its obvious that the buyer isnt really paying for the t-shirt in the end. you said yourself they only cost a few bucks to make. If it somehow made it to trial, I dont think you could convince them that the real product was actually the t-shirt. But it most likely wouldnt go that far. Its a pretty minor operation, and your not likely to get caught, but it is in fact illegal, and you should probably realize that if you chose to continue doing it. But whatever floats your boat anyway

See above post... I already said I'm not doing this anymore. Yes, I was making a little money. I figured for the time I put into it, I deserved it. I guess not.

 

[EarthBound]

On the tax issue, you would have to pay taxes on the t-shirt sales regardless of any beer if you were going to be on the up-and-up.

There have already been cases where people tried to use your "loophole" and lost in court. e.g. throwing a homebrew party and charging for cups. You may think it's a clever loophole, but it's not clever, and it's not a loophole. Most likely you will never be charged with anything, but you could be, and if you were, you'd probably lose.

I can't figure out why you use run-on sentences like that.

 

[Pivot]

See above post... I already said I'm not doing this anymore. Yes, I was making a little money. I figured for the time I put into it, I deserved it. I guess not.

just clarifying

 

[beerisgood]

Did I mention that I like beer? I think its good! Think I'll brew some more this weekend. I just floated a keg.

 

[Pivot]

Did I mention that I like beer? I think its good! Think I'll brew some more this weekend. I just floated a keg.

well thats rare for a board like this! as it happens though, I enjoy beer too! about to fill a new keg soon too!

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

I can't stand beer... it tastes like piss water. Oh wait...I'm thinking of BMC.

 

[beerisgood]

I drink coffee at work cause they won't let me drink beer. Bastards...

 

[BishopRyan]

See above post... I already said I'm not doing this anymore. Yes, I was making a little money. I figured for the time I put into it, I deserved it. I guess not.

The actual charge you would be brought up on is essentially "intent". 1. Something that is intended; an aim or purpose.

Basically the argument would be that your intention was to profit from the beer sold under the ruse of a t-shirt transaction. Similar to the fact that you'd be breaking the law for supplying a hooker with a cheeseburger and she rewarded you with sexual favors. You didn't actually pay her for sex...right? Well the law sees it differently.

If you sold every shirt with beer it would be tough to prove that your intention wasn't to circumvent the law.

I'm not trying to kick a dead horse or anything. I just didn't see a specific addressing of what exactly was illegal about what you did or didn't do.

 

[jfr1111]

The thread, let it die

Also, join date of Feb 2009 but first post October 2010

 

[BishopRyan]

The thread, let it die

Also, join date of Feb 2009 but first post October 2010

Why should I be banned for making my first post? I felt I had something to contribute so I made a comment. Didn't spam, didn't advertise, didn't insult anyone...I generally lurk, as a member of many forums I post when I have something to post. My lack of activity shouldn't constitute an intention to troll or bait. Don't think I broke any rules. I registered a long time ago and decided to return once the hobby back around again.

I didn't realize that this open thread wasn't for further discussion.

Am I welcome to continue contributing to your forum?

 

[Frankfurtvr4]

Similar to the fact that you'd be breaking the law for supplying a hooker with a cheeseburger and she rewarded you with sexual favors. You didn't actually pay her for sex...right? Well the law sees it differently.

I think that could be labeled dating a hooker. BTW what city do you live in that hookers go for cheeseburger prices?

 

[BishopRyan]

I think that could be labeled dating a hooker. BTW what city do you live in that hookers go for cheeseburger prices?

I don't know about cheeseburgers but south Texas has been known to negotiate favorably for ham sandwiches and Sunkists.