Anyone brewing Brut IPA?

[TravelingLight]

I want this beer to be clear, and was mainly the reason I didn't use wheat and opted for US-05. I used whirlfloc near end of boil so that precipitated a good amount of sediment in the BK. I may add a bit of gelatin after I pull my dry hops, but then again, will the gelatin drop out my hop essences?

Nope! Not in my experience (and not according to Brulosopher, IIRC).

 

[stickyfinger]

None of the calculators I have seen will get you closer than 'ballpark' numbers. What they are very good at is telling you when fermentation is done as you are just comparing its own readings.

my refractometer and calculation is always the same as my crappy hydrometer when compared. the best is a FG hydrometer but I dont care that much i guess

 

[stickyfinger]

Nope! Not in my experience (and not according to Brulosopher, IIRC).

I have one data point. I did a side-by-side split-batch comparison of a west coast style ipa. one half was fined with gelatin, the other half not. my wife and i could not consistently tell them apart. They seemed the same to me. I was shocked. I thought for sure it would ruin the hop flavor. I haven't tried it in an NEIPA.

 

[cheesebach]

"
I want this beer to be clear, and was mainly the reason I didn't use wheat and opted for US-05. I used whirlfloc near end of boil so that precipitated a good amount of sediment in the BK. I may add a bit of gelatin after I pull my dry hops, but then again, will the gelatin drop out my hop essences?

FWIW, whirlfloc seems to make anything clear for me (aside from dry hop haze). I’ve done 40% wheat with no post-fermentation fining that came out crystal clear. The only time I’ve had a NEIPA come out looking like a standard IPA was the only time I’ve used whirlfloc in the book as well.

Regarding gelatin, I haven’t done any side-by-side experiments, so take this with a grain of salt, but I’ve been disappointed with the hop character when I’ve used it in IPAs/APAs before. I used it in the serving keg, so it’s possible the longer contact time behaves differently than when used in the fermenter as in the brulosophy experiment. It’s something I may experiment with again in the future, but in general, I’m not sure there’s a hop-forward style that I would want to be crystal clear anyways.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I used whirlfloc, gelatin, and cold crashing, and i couldn't drop the haze that came along with dry hopping with 4oz of pellets. Disappointed, to say the least, but the rest of the brew is still amazing.

 

[Morrey]

I have one data point. I did a side-by-side split-batch comparison of a west coast style ipa. one half was fined with gelatin, the other half not. my wife and i could not consistently tell them apart. They seemed the same to me. I was shocked. I thought for sure it would ruin the hop flavor. I haven't tried it in an NEIPA.

With your split batch (fined vs non-fined), was the fined batch visibly more clear than non-fined?

If you cant tell the difference taste-wise, this is a confidence builder to try gelatin with this beer. Good test!

 

[stickyfinger]

With your split batch (fined vs non-fined), was the fined batch visibly more clear than non-fined?

If you cant tell the difference taste-wise, this is a confidence builder to try gelatin with this beer. Good test!

The fined version is obviously on the left. The unfined version was much hazier.

Funny, I had the opposite reaction to the experiment. Since I did that test I figured fining doesn't help the beer flavor, so why not skip it. It's just one more step to fart around with that could add oxygen to the beer.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

I used some cryo hops to dry hop with in a NEIPA and it turned out pretty harsh and burn the back of your throat. Because of an up coming competition I didn’t have time to ride it out so I fined with some gelatin to pull the hop material out of suspension. It worked great, smoothed it out, the aroma didn’t change, and it was still hazy. Not opaque but hazy lol. I ended up with BOS in the all IPA competition.

 

[Morrey]

The fined version is obviously on the left. The unfined version was much hazier.

Funny, I had the opposite reaction to the experiment. Since I did that test I figured fining doesn't help the beer flavor, so why not skip it. It's just one more step to fart around with that could add oxygen to the beer.

I understand your point, and I see your experiment as fining doesn't "hurt" the beer flavor. Either way we view the end result, your split batch experiment is valuable.

 

[Morrey]

Couldn't help it, so I took another floating hydrometer reading at the end of day 5. The hydrometer reading speaks for itself, and I never expected to brew a beer that bottoms out at 1.000.

As not to waste the sample, I drank it. Darn this is going to be one heck of a beer after the DH and a few days to balance out the carbonation and smooth out. I think I better go ahead and start a half barrel batch as this one is going to go fast. A 7.35% ABV chugger!!

 

[jakturner]

Do the enzymes work on malt extract?

 

[stickyfinger]

Do the enzymes work on malt extract?

they would no doubt work in diluted malt extract.

 

[Morrey]

Don't know if I am happy or sad....the FG on my Brut has bottomed out and on day 8 my readings are repeatedly stable at .997. I suppose this is what I was looking for but it does seem a shade lower than expected. I am sure this beer will be awesome so I'm only going by the hydrometer readings.

BTW, what are others doing to control the FG? I guess there are standard ways such as yeast selection and mash temps, but not sure how this will be impacted by the enzymes?

Any ideas?

 

[cheesebach]

Don't know if I am happy or sad....the FG on my Brut has bottomed out and on day 8 my readings are repeatedly stable at .997. I suppose this is what I was looking for but it does seem a shade lower than expected. I am sure this beer will be awesome so I'm only going by the hydrometer readings.

BTW, what are others doing to control the FG? I guess there are standard ways such as yeast selection and mash temps, but not sure how this will be impacted by the enzymes?

Any ideas?

What mash temp did you go with? It seems like when using enzyme in the fermenter, it’s going to get down pretty low. I’m not sure that’s there’s any need to use a lower mash temp than the usual 150-154F unless you use the enzyme in the mash and need to keep the temp low to prevent denaturing. Same probably goes for yeast selection - I’d bet most would get down plenty low, so the flavor/ester profile (or lack there of) is probably more important than the expected attenuation.

 

[doug293cz]

Don't know if I am happy or sad....the FG on my Brut has bottomed out and on day 8 my readings are repeatedly stable at .997. I suppose this is what I was looking for but it does seem a shade lower than expected. I am sure this beer will be awesome so I'm only going by the hydrometer readings.

BTW, what are others doing to control the FG? I guess there are standard ways such as yeast selection and mash temps, but not sure how this will be impacted by the enzymes?

Any ideas?

I thought the whole point of a brut was to get the FG down as far as possible. If you put a glucoamylase enzyme in the fermenter, it will reduce any and all polysaccharides to glucose, which will all ferment (unless the yeast is killed by too much alcohol.) If you want to have any residual detextrins, etc., you need to use the enzyme in the mash, and do a mash out to denature the enzymes when you get the sugar profile you are looking for. Knowing when you have the desired sugar profile is the hard part (i.e. I have no idea how to do that.)

If you are looking to hit a "sweet spot" between bone dry and more typical ~1.010 beers, the most reliable way may be blending a brut and a normal, made with the same recipe, yeast, process, etc. (except the brut gets enzymes.)

Brew on

 

[crusader1612]

This is a super interesting style to drink and make. There are a. Purple of versions around where I come from. It seems a real balancing act between hops and malt. Given the lack of backbone in the grist.
My little fun theory is to make what I called a brut Saison I did it a couple of years ago.
Mash as normal at low temps and then cap off the mash at the end with a minimum of 15% acidulated malt and sparse boil from there. Lower the ph to a range within the realms of a wine/champagne. Then add wine type hops. Blanc and sauvin in if quantities at whirlpool and dryhopping only. I did it without the hops last time and added white wine instead. I feel as though both would work together well. Use a clean Chico strain in place of Saison. And viola tart hoppy and clean Ale which should dry out nicely.
The grist would literally be 100% Pilsner.

 

[jakturner]

For those of you that are using this 10g pack, how much did you add for 5 gallons? Also did you just mix it with warm water? I plan on adding it to the fermentor.

 

[TravelingLight]

View attachment 581508For those of you that are using this 10g pack, how much did you add for 5 gallons? Also did you just mix it with warm water? I plan on adding it to the fermentor.

I used that exact package this weekend. I used the whole thing. Opinions are kind of all over the place so I tried to tag team it. I added 3g during my sparge (batch sparge with room temp water, so temps were not an issue), then I added the remainder of the enzyme during chilling once the wort was at/below 130*. So I hit it with a little bit pre-boil, then the rest after the boil going into the fermenter.

ETA: I just sprinkled it on top of the mash/wort and stirred it in. It seemed to mix very easily without clumping.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

View attachment 581508For those of you that are using this 10g pack, how much did you add for 5 gallons? Also did you just mix it with warm water? I plan on adding it to the fermentor.

I used the whole 10g. If you’re using it in the fermenter I’d mic it with some sanitized water, it will clump up on you. However, it’s best used at suggested temps. Not sure how well it works at fermentation temps.

 

[brew703]

I'll be attempting this one on Friday.
79.4% Pilsner
10.3% White Wheat
10.3% Flaked Rice
Mash 148 for 90 min
75 min boil
Whirlfloc & yeast nutrient added at 10 min remaining in boil

US05
Not sure of fermentation yet. Probably 62-65 degrees
2ML enzyme added during mash at 145 degrees (30 min)
3ML enzyme added during cool down after boil at 125 degrees (30 min)
2 oz each Citra/Mosaic WP for 30 min @ 170-180 degrees
3 oz each Citra/Mosaic DH for 3-4 days.

 

[Morrey]

As we forge ahead with a relatively new process to most homebrewers, we seem to have areas of discovery ahead. As @doug293cz questioned (paraphrasing him), how do we know or predict what level of dryness an enzyme will take us if we just added in the mash and denatured afterward? Is there a way to predict or a certain amount to use??

My final FG is .997. This is dry for sure. With cider this low, I add sorbate and do some back sweetening. @doug293cz suggested to consider blending another beer of similar qualities with a higher FG. I like this idea, and @cheesebach made other good points to consider.

I mashed at 148F for 90 minutes. Stirred at the 30 minute mark and temp was at 146.5F (safe zone) so I added 2 ml AMYL-GL. NOTES: Higher than my normal mash conversion efficiency, also, expected 1.050 and got 1.056. Was this a result of the enzyme? Then on to the boil at 90 min which denatured the enzyme.

Question: Is there any way I could "predict" my FG with a controlled dosage of enzyme followed by denaturing?

However, I kept going with the enzyme. After the boil, WP and hopping, I dropped temps down to 130F and added 3 ml more AMYL-GL. This addition never got denatured as it went into FV and remained to work the entire time in FV. NOTE: 5ml of enzyme is the suggested total dosage so I split it between the mash and then the FV.

Should I only add into the mash? How much? How do I predict other than experience?

 

[couchsending]

Isn’t the goal for this style total dryness? Do you think you could tell the difference between 1.000 and .997?

Obviously If you were to blend something it would have to be cold the whole time or the enzyme would just east those additional sugars as well.

I’d just try adding it to the mash next time and see what you get. I added it to the FV but only got to 1.000 but I also chose a yeast that generally doesn’t attenuate that well. Not 100% sure if that had anything to do with it or not.

Maybe adding a high glycerol producing Saison yeast at a certain gravity would help to add a little body. Not sure what you’d get in the way of phenols if added at a certain attenuation. In my experience 566 produces a lot of glycerol and it’s more fruity than overly phenolic.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I just worked on a brut recipe with a local brewery. They just added the enzyme powder a couple days into fermentation (likely high krausen) of 30gal and noted that it just went nuts and foamed out, probably blowing out most of the powder added- likely due to the powder creating a ton of nucleation sites for the CO2.

So for reference: watch out for THAT.

 

[Morrey]

Isn’t the goal for this style total dryness? Do you think you could tell the difference between 1.000 and .997?

Obviously If you were to blend something it would have to be cold the whole time or the enzyme would just east those additional sugars as well.

I’d just try adding it to the mash next time and see what you get. I added it to the FV but only got to 1.000 but I also chose a yeast that generally doesn’t attenuate that well. Not 100% sure if that had anything to do with it or not.

Maybe adding a high glycerol producing Saison yeast at a certain gravity would help to add a little body. Not sure what you’d get in the way of phenols if added at a certain attenuation. In my experience 566 produces a lot of glycerol and it’s more fruity than overly phenolic.

Sure, the "style" of Brut IPA is definitely looking to achieve a level of brut dryness for sure. To be honest, I took a sample at 1.000 and I thought this is going to be nice. A follow up sample at .997 seems to be a small yet discernable difference. It may be possible that I had subliminally determined anything below 1.000 was going to be too dry, so factor that into the equation. This may not be possible, but I would like to control the FG between 1.000 and 1.002. Is this possible? Or splitting hairs?

I'm heading in the direction of adding enzyme into the mash only and see what I come up with. Adding into the FV gives the enzyme an open invitation to do whatever it chooses, and in essence, we lose control of the end result. I think I'll try adding enzymes in the mash, then I'll experiment with the amount of enzyme and the length of time prior to denaturing.

A work in progress...

 

[TravelingLight]

Fellas, I brewed this one Sunday morning...

42% 2-Row
42% Pils
16% Flaked Corn (first time using flaked corn, looked like corn flakes in the bag!)

0.5oz Nugget @FWH
1.5oz each Citra/El Dorado @WP (20m, 160*)

1.5oz each Citra/El Dorado @DH1
1.5oz each Citra/El Dorado @DH2

US-05

Mashed at 148, 1 hour. Boiled 1 hour (I never boil pils longer than 60m)

OG: 1.052

I used the FermFast glucoamylase, 10g in the package. I added 3g during my sparge (sparged with room temp water, so temps not an issue). Then I proceeded with the boil and whirlpool, and added the remainder of the package during chilling once my temps hit about 130*. Chilling is painfully slow for me, so it got good contact time in the kettle, and then carried through to the fermenter. Hit it with oxygen, pitched two packs of 05. Got some nice krausen Monday morning. Added my first dry hop last night. Even though this is not a New England, I've been becoming more and more pleased with early dry hopping for biotrans. And then the second dry hop either at the end of fermentation about 48 hours before crashing and kegging, OR I'll do the second dry hop in the keg. Haven't decided yet. Holy cow this was definitely the palest wort I've ever brewed. I'm a little anxious about the enzyme I used. It says one package is plenty for a 5 gal batch. I'm just anxious because I only added about 2/3 of the packet post-boil (the 3g I added earlier were obviously denatured in the boil). But I suppose I could always add more to the fermenter if necessary. I'm fermenting this one in my Fermonster, with a spigot, so I can easily take hydro samples without opening it up. I guess I'll watch gravity and see how it's progressing?

 

[Morrey]

Fellas, I brewed this one Sunday morning...

42% 2-Row
42% Pils
16% Flaked Corn (first time using flaked corn, looked like corn flakes in the bag!)

0.5oz Nugget @FWH
1.5oz each Citra/El Dorado @WP (20m, 160*)

1.5oz each Citra/El Dorado @DH1
1.5oz each Citra/El Dorado @DH2

US-05

Mashed at 148, 1 hour. Boiled 1 hour (I never boil pils longer than 60m)

OG: 1.052

I used the FermFast glucoamylase, 10g in the package. I added 3g during my sparge (sparged with room temp water, so temps not an issue). Then I proceeded with the boil and whirlpool, and added the remainder of the package during chilling once my temps hit about 130*. Chilling is painfully slow for me, so it got good contact time in the kettle, and then carried through to the fermenter. Hit it with oxygen, pitched two packs of 05. Got some nice krausen Monday morning. Added my first dry hop last night. Even though this is not a New England, I've been becoming more and more pleased with early dry hopping for biotrans. And then the second dry hop either at the end of fermentation about 48 hours before crashing and kegging, OR I'll do the second dry hop in the keg. Haven't decided yet. Holy cow this was definitely the palest wort I've ever brewed. I'm a little anxious about the enzyme I used. It says one package is plenty for a 5 gal batch. I'm just anxious because I only added about 2/3 of the packet post-boil (the 3g I added earlier were obviously denatured in the boil). But I suppose I could always add more to the fermenter if necessary. I'm fermenting this one in my Fermonster, with a spigot, so I can easily take hydro samples without opening it up. I guess I'll watch gravity and see how it's progressing?

I'll be most interested in your FG based on your enzyme usage. So, with your enzyme pitching plan, does the amount of enzyme used help us to control what we get for a Final Gravity?

 

[TravelingLight]

I'll be most interested in your FG based on your enzyme usage. So, with your enzyme pitching plan, does the amount of enzyme used help us to control what we get for a Final Gravity?

No clue. But I don't really mind at this point. I want it as dry as possible (1.000 or lower) for this first one. Then I'll adjust in the future if need be.

 

[Morrey]

No clue. But I don't really mind at this point. I want it as dry as possible (1.000 or lower) for this first one. Then I'll adjust in the future if need be.

Mine finished at .997 which is pretty darn dry. Point being, is there any control we can exercise over the FG?

I will probably be just fine with this beer as is...just interested to know what influences we as brewers have over the FG when using glucoamylase.

 

[Eltes]

I'll be most interested in your FG based on your enzyme usage. So, with your enzyme pitching plan, does the amount of enzyme used help us to control what we get for a Final Gravity?

I does not, as long as it is not denatured. The amount will only affect how long it takes to get there. Enzymes catalyze specific chemical reactions, and (as catalysts) are not consumed in the reaction. Once the enzyme is added, the only thing affected by the amount is the rate at which the reaction occurs, that is, the time it takes for all the larger sugars to become fermentable. The rate will also be affected by pH, temperature, and several other factors I'm sure. The only way to stop the enzyme is (as discussed above) to denature it.

 

[Morrey]

I does not, as long as it is not denatured. The amount will only affect how long it takes to get there. Enzymes catalyze specific chemical reactions, and (as catalysts) are not consumed in the reaction. Once the enzyme is added, the only thing affected by the amount is the rate at which the reaction occurs, that is, the time it takes for all the larger sugars to become fermentable. The rate will also be affected by pH, temperature, and several other factors I'm sure. The only way to stop the enzyme is (as discussed above) to denature it.

I'm developing a second Brut along with an additional enzyme pitching strategy. My plan is to add the entire enzyme addition in the 90 minute mash: Mash in at 148F, cover and rest, then uncover and stir at the 30 minutes mark where I should be at 146.5F. Pitch 4 ml enzyme and let work 60 more minutes before lautering and boiling. This will denature, so I'll take notes and see how this strategy impacts my FG. If I am too high I'll add more enzyme next time, and if too low, add less.

Thanks for the info!!