Any Mexican lager suggestions?

[jdauria]

https://www.bjcp.org/style/2015/2/2A/international-pale-lager/

I'd never actually read this before, but it's full of so many inaccuracies (which shouldn't be a surprise since it's trying to sum up tons of different countries' lagers in a single style).

As just one example, the very first commercial example it gives is Asahi Super Dry, which makes zero sense when they have the FG range as 1.008 to 1.012 when Asahi Super Dry's FG is much closer to 1.000 (hence the name). A lot of the Japanese lagers from the "Dry Wars" in the late 1980s and early 1990s (but that are still popular today) have FG's in the 1.000 to 1.006 range. Even among Japanese lagers, though, there are some that use rice and others that are 100% malt.

Yeah there are a lot of things that don't make sense in the BJCP guidelines. I think they are working on another revision to clean some things up. Saying that though, the FG range and other statistics listed for a style are just a guideline. Judges are not testing the beer for IBUs, ABV, gravity etc. In fact a competition trick is to brew at the top of style guideline or even going over it some. I guess beers stand out that way to judges vs beers that are brewed at lower end of the style. But who knows what judges think. I have made a Helles in the past and have diluted it with 2 oz of water in bottles and sent it to comps as an International Pale Lager. The beer medaled 6 out of 6 times, 3 firsts and 3 seconds. And a few of the judges mentioned "nice corn aroma" when there was no corn in it at all.

 

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Good looking recipe for ‘Modelo’ (the style of Bitter European Lager) tho not Modelo Negra which is the dark lager.

Ahh of course, good point, There's more than one Modelo!!! That's what I jumped to, and on 2nd thought that's almost certainly not what this is supposed to be.

Still the Cali lager yeast with Willamette and Cascade sound yummy but not exactly Modelo Especial either. But, who knows.

 

[worlddivides]

Yeah there are a lot of things that don't make sense in the BJCP guidelines. I think they are working on another revision to clean some things up. Saying that though, the FG range and other statistics listed for a style are just a guideline. Judges are not testing the beer for IBUs, ABV, gravity etc. In fact a competition trick is to brew at the top of style guideline or even going over it some. I guess beers stand out that way to judges vs beers that are brewed at lower end of the style. But who knows what judges think. I have made a Helles in the past and have diluted it with 2 oz of water in bottles and sent it to comps as an International Pale Lager. The beer medaled 6 out of 6 times, 3 firsts and 3 seconds. And a few of the judges mentioned "nice corn aroma" when there was no corn in it at all.

That's fascinating. I've heard a lot of both really positive and really negative things about BJCP judges, but most of it is in that category with comments about things that just were wrong (corn for a beer with no corn in it, saying a beer had no esters when it was a super estery Belgian yeast brewed warm, complimenting the use of caramel malts when there were none, etc. etc.).

While I do really enjoy the BJCP guidelines and find them very useful, they definitely aren't the be-all and end-all. I think the "International Pale Lager" is one of the lazier, throw-everything-together categories, but I've also seen other categories that just simply don't exist or where it's like "wait, why would you put that there?" I guess that's just a testament to the broad category of beers out there, though. I guess there's also a huge range in judges too.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

You've made it? Done a side by side? Would you say you cloned it?

It definitely looks yummy but is just quite different from the other purported clones.

Yes I have made it twice and it was good, still a few left. I have tried the original but not done a comparison. One thing I would say is that the original has more carbonation.

 

[dmtaylor]

a few of the judges mentioned "nice corn aroma" when there was no corn in it at all.

I've done things like this many times! I submitted a rye stout as an oatmeal stout, it took gold with zero oats in it. I'm such a liar. But enter the beer how it tastes, not how it *should* taste based on ingredients. And if your helles tastes better than everyone else's International Pale Lager, it can still win. That's not cheating. That's just being smart. Cheers.

 

[jdauria]

I've done things like this many times! I submitted a rye stout as an oatmeal stout, it took gold with zero oats in it. I'm such a liar. But enter the beer how it tastes, not how it *should* taste based on ingredients. And if your helles tastes better than everyone else's International Pale Lager, it can still win. That's not cheating. That's just being smart. Cheers.

Love that on the rye stout! Cheers!

 

[duelerx]

Old thread, but Mexican Lager strain doesnt taste the same to me like W34 or S-23. If I would brew something more authentic try malteurop Mexican 2-Row, its more flavorful than regular American 2-row. Even blend it with vienna malt and you could nail some good amber or Mexican Dunkel like Negra Modelo. Like other poster suggested is a broad category, Victoria doesnt taste the same as Bohemia Vienna and Modelo Especial doesnt taste the same to a Bohemia Pilsner. I think Americans love Corona flavor profile or Negra Modelo. Modelo use Galena and Super Galena, Bohemia Pilsner use Styrian.

 

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Modelo use Galena and Super Galena

I've seen this as well, on their site. I've been tempted to use it, but it has been a high (12%) AA hop and that discouraged me. To keep from having a really bitter result, it would seem you have to put in very little, and at that point I wondered if you could even taste it. I considered a whirlpool addition but that doesn't seem like a normal way to brew this beer either.

Curious if anyone cloning / imitating / being inspired by a beer such as Model has their Galena addition rates and times to share?

 

[Broothru]

Chinook or Centennial might be suitable substitutions, just looking at the 'spider' graphs, with Chinook being the closest likely substitute.

As a sidebar, I've got a Mexican lager that's just about finished conditioning that used Liberty and Sterling. I was trying to match the taste profile of Pacifico more than Modelo Especial, though I think the two beers close are pretty close. Anyhow, the taste of my knock-off Pacifica is very close to to what I was trying to achieve. The hop spider indicates that Galena is more assertive as related to Pine and Resin than Liberty/Sterling, and less so relative to Floral and Herbal notes. That said, I think my 'Pacifico' comes darn close to the mark.

 

[pvpeacock]

My go to Mexican lager recipe for a 10 gallon batch:

7 lb. Pale 2 Row
4 lb. 6 row
7 lb. flaked corn

Mash at 150f

1.5 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh at 60 min.
1.5 oz. whirlpool for 15 minutes

Imperial que Bueno Lager yeast

ferment at 50f

This was based on a Pacifico recipe I found online a few years back.

 

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Yeah, gives me something to think about.

I've used Hallertauer and Tettnang, and the beers were fine, but I knew the hops weren't quite right (for a Negra Modelo, IMO, it doesn't make them bad choices). I was thinking Saaz next. But again they might be "fine, but not right".

I bought some bottles of Negra Modelo recently, I'll have to have a clear palate before the next one and really think about what I'm tasting.

 

[Broothru]

My go to Mexican lager recipe for a 10 gallon batch:

7 lb. Pale 2 Row
4 lb. 6 row
7 lb. flaked corn

Mash at 150f

1.5 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh at 60 min.
1.5 oz. whirlpool for 15 minutes

Imperial que Bueno Lager yeast

ferment at 50f

This was based on a Pacifico recipe I found online a few years back.

I used WLP-940 starter from an out of date Pure Pitch, augmented with a sachet of Cellar Science Mexican lager. Both of them are supposedly propagated from Modelo’s house yeast. It took a while for the fermentation to get started, and when it finally did it took a full 13 days from yeast pitch to Final Gravity.

It slowed considerably towards the end but rebounded with the temperature raised for a D-rest. Finally attenuated to 74% and 5% ABV. It tastes really good, but it lost a lot of the corn adjunct flavor/aroma kick that I was looking for. Only 4.5% of the grain bill, so I probably should have added a touch more.

Oh well, I might add a little Saaz terpene to spice things up a bit.

 

[jdubdvdt]

60-65% pilsner
20% flaked corn
15-20% vienna

14ibu total
about 10.5ibu from Liberty at 60'
about 3.5ibu from Liberty at 5'

mash low, like 148F

ferment WLP940 at 50F for 5 days, then 66F for 10 days.


Liberty or Mittelfrueh should be used for this. I use Liberty since it is slightly higher AA and an American hop.

 

[Broothru]

60-65% pilsner
20% corn
15-20% vienna

14ibu total
about 10.5ibu from Liberty at 60'
about 3.5ibu from Liberty at 5'

mash low, like 148F

ferment WLP940 at 50F for 5 days, then 66F for 10 days.


Liberty or Mittelfrueh should be used for this. I use Liberty since it is slightly higher AA and an American hop.

Mine was a little more "ambitious":

43.5% BestMalz Pils
34.8% 2-row Brewer's Malt
8.7% Vienna
4.3% CaraHell
4.3% Flaked Maize
4.3% acidulated

Liberty 3.3 IBU FWH
Saaz 6.8 IBU :15 min.
Sterling 10.2 IBU :15 min.
Liberty 0.5 IBU :20 min whirlpool @ 70C
Sterling. 0.3 IBU :20 min whirlpool @ 70C

WLP-940 starter fermented @ 50F/Cellar Science Mexican Lager co-pitched

OG. 1.046
FG. 1.008
ABV 5.0%
IBUs 21.1
SRM 3.5

I'll know better how it turned out after it conditions for a bit longer and gets fully carbed up, but so far it's looking pretty good. I'm just a little bummed that it seems to have lost most of the hints of corn, probably getting blown off by the fermentation. That's why I'm considering dosing with some Saaz distilate, just to add a little umph to spice it up.

 

[jdubdvdt]

Mine was a little more "ambitious":

43.5% BestMalz Pils
34.8% 2-row Brewer's Malt
8.7% Vienna
4.3% CaraHell
4.3% Flaked Maize
4.3% acidulated

Liberty 3.3 IBU FWH
Saaz 6.8 IBU :15 min.
Sterling 10.2 IBU :15 min.
Liberty 0.5 IBU :20 min whirlpool @ 70C
Sterling. 0.3 IBU :20 min whirlpool @ 70C

WLP-940 starter fermented @ 50F/Cellar Science Mexican Lager co-pitched

OG. 1.046
FG. 1.008
ABV 5.0%
IBUs 21.1
SRM 3.5

I'll know better how it turned out after it conditions for a bit longer and gets fully carbed up, but so far it's looking pretty good. I'm just a little bummed that it seems to have lost most of the hints of corn, probably getting blown off by the fermentation. That's why I'm considering dosing with some Saaz distilate, just to add a little umph to spice it up.

I edited my post I meant to say flaked corn. I think if you use some grits you will get more corn flavor from what I've heard.

Worth a shot

 

[Yesfan]

I brewed another "Mexi-lager" over the weekend after being happy with the last two I did. I thought I had some Vienna left to do another Atlantico beer (NB's Pacifico clone) as I really like that kit. I had to sub some 2row instead. My grain bill was:

Pilsen - 57.4%
2 row - 24.6%
Munich - 9.7%
Flaked maize - 8.2%

Chinook 0.5oz at 45 min
0.5 oz each of Citra and Motueka at 10 min.

Pitched CS Baja slurry at 72F. I had activity around 4 hours later. I did make a big starter from the slurry and this beer looks like it may be already finished after two days. I've fermented with CS Baja once at 74F by accident (failed pressure ferment) and the beer still turned out fine. This beer is still pretty cloudy, so if the FG is low enough, I may try to crash it at 50F for a few days since my kegerator is currently empty. Then I'll just rack to a keg and bring the temps down to serving temperature for another week before tasting.

I know it's not true to style, but what the hell. I've read where Motueka can give off a lime flavor, so figured why not hop it up a bit near the end of the boil.

 

[jdubdvdt]

I kegged my split batch of Mexican Lager over the weekend. One with WLP940 and the other with CS Baja.

I let the CS Baja go an extra 36 hours on gelatin in the fermenter before transferring - didn't have time to do both at the same time.

Pulled a small lowly carbonated sample and I don't want to speak too soon, but CS Baja impressed me. I don't want to say too much until they have time to lager at least a couple weeks.

 

[Broothru]

I did a recent Mexi-lager with a co-pitch of WLP-940 starter and a sachet of Baja. The 940 was a 1st generation propagation from an out-of-date Pure Pitch. Since both yeasts are purportedly Modelo house strain, I wasn’t worried that one yeast would outcompete the other.

Fermentation turned out well, no surprises. It’s lagering right now, so no final judgement yet. But the last sample before kegging was very promising.

 

[jdubdvdt]

Baja is pretty clear at 24 hours after transfer to the keg. Carbonated a little bit overnight, but I had to have a sample.

 

[pvpeacock]

It's funny, because my son who likes to surf in Mexico asked me to make a Mexican Lager. My initial thought was, "why would I do that when you can just buy it at the store." But he piqued by interest, so I found a recipe and brewed a 10 gallon batch which turned out great. My sons and their friends and our neighbors tell me it is one of their favorites, if not their favorite of my beers. Who would have thought.

 

[jdubdvdt]

It's funny, because my son who likes to surf in Mexico asked me to make a Mexican Lager. My initial thought was, "why would I do that when you can just buy it at the store." But he piqued by interest, so I found a recipe and brewed a 10 gallon batch which turned out great. My sons and their friends and our neighbors tell me it is one of their favorites, if not their favorite of my beers. Who would have thought.

Haha, I thought the same way, but now with Modelo going up in cost and my enjoyment of draft beer I will stick to making this one.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Living in australia, imported beers don't always travel well. Corona i find hit and miss. A good one is lovely, most are meh. I did try Victoria a while back, it was really nice. Tecate, well, the price gives away the quality, and i'll drink it on half price wing and beer night haha. Pacifico is also good if fresh, but often meh

WLP940 is a glorious lager yeast i think. I haven't made many with it, but all of them were really good. Have an amber lager with it lagering now ( not drinking til Sept ). Looking forward to tasting.

 

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I found a recipe

I'm curious what yeast and hops were used?

 

[jdubdvdt]

and 1 pack of cellar science baja at 54 degrees for 2 weeks with a 3 days at 68 for DAR.

i lagered it for 4 weeks but it came out really good.

btw this yeast was the cleanest lager yeast i have ever used. its too clean it contributes zero flavor to the beer IMO. it works well for american and mexican lagers not german.

My initial perception of my split batch is similar. Trying to not say too much until they have lagered for a few weeks.
I current prefer the Baja batch.

 

[dmtaylor]

My initial perception of my split batch is similar. Trying to not say too much until they have lagered for a few weeks.
I current prefer the Baja batch.

IF there are any noticeable differences in the finished beer, either in the aroma/flavor or in the final gravity stats, etc., I'm very curious to learn about it. Thanks.

 

[jdubdvdt]

IF there are any noticeable differences in the finished beer, either in the aroma/flavor or in the final gravity stats, etc., I'm very curious to learn about it. Thanks.

I bittered with Liberty and then did a 5 minute addition of Zumo and Liberty. The Zumo is supposedly citrus more like lime and I wanted to try it where a lot of people use Moteuka to get similar flavors. This was a complete split batch after chilling the wort. They were put in the same chamber so the only variable is the yeast.

I have only done two small samples of each and both were immediately at kegging.
Initial feedback is limited as a result.

• WLP940 is either accentuating the Zumo hops or there are some fruity flavors from the yeast. Almost tastes like apple to me. I did some searching on the internet and I have seen others pick up this flavor, but not super common that people can detect ethyl hexanoate. If it is ethyl hexanoate it will likely dissipate with aging. I get similar flavors (apple) from WLP860, but WLP860 really accentuates malt compared to 940.
• WLP940 has a slight alcohol flavor. Possibly too crisp for low ibu? not sure.
• The Baja is letting the Liberty hops shine making the beer taste and smell more noble.
• The Baja appears to have the grain front and center (I am using Barke Pils and Barke Vienna).
• Not much from the flaked corn which is to be expected.

I should have more better feedback this weekend. I will bring some to my homebrew club and see what they think and I will have some with my inlaws.

 

[jdubdvdt]

Split preference at my local homebrew club meeting.

Interesting that half detected the Zumo hops in Baja and the other half detected it more in the 940.

The consensus is the 940 is very crisp.

The owner of our local shop was surprised that he picked Baja as the one tasting most like a true Mexican lager. Although he said for sitting poolside he preferred the 940 (yeast accentuating the Zumo).

Honestly, I wouldn't be upset with either moving forward. If I had Baja sitting around I'd likely pitch that before buying a liquid yeast. If I had 940 and it wasn't fresh I'd probably use Baja if I didn't have time to make a starter. If I had some fresh 940 I might just use that since Baja can wait.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Split preference at my local homebrew club meeting.

Interesting that half detected the Zumo hops in Baja and the other half detected it more in the 940.

The consensus is the 940 is very crisp.

The owner of our local shop was surprised that he picked Baja as the one tasting most like a true Mexican lager. Although he said for sitting poolside he preferred the 940 (yeast accentuating the Zumo).

Honestly, I wouldn't be upset with either moving forward. If I had Baja sitting around I'd likely pitch that before buying a liquid yeast. If I had 940 and it wasn't fresh I'd probably use Baja if I didn't have time to make a starter. If I had some fresh 940 I might just use that since Baja can wait.

Don't you need 2 packs of baja? ( 5 gal ). If i needed 2 packs, im more inclined to stick with 940. Am tempted. Not great reviews all around for Cellar science though.

 

[jdubdvdt]

Don't you need 2 packs of baja? ( 5 gal ). If i needed 2 packs, im more inclined to stick with 940. Am tempted. Not great reviews all around for Cellar science though.

Yes. The pitch rate requires 2 per 5 gallons. I still think there is value in Baja since 2 packs of Baja is still cheaper at $3 each and has a longer shelf life than liquid yeast.

Everyone has different drivers in brewing. Personally I did not mind spending a little extra for the liquid yeast. Unfortunately, my closest homebrew shop is 45 minutes to an hour each way. With young kids I cannot prioritize that trip for some liquid yeast.

I will likely for the foreseeable future keep Baja on hand. I keep a lot of dry yeast at my house and way too much liquid yeast from batches I forgot I was going to make.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Yes. The pitch rate requires 2 per 5 gallons. I still think there is value in Baja since 2 packs of Baja is still cheaper at $3 each and has a longer shelf life than liquid yeast.

Everyone has different drivers in brewing. Personally I did not mind spending a little extra for the liquid yeast. Unfortunately, my closest homebrew shop is 45 minutes to an hour each way. With young kids I cannot prioritize that trip for some liquid yeast.

I will likely for the foreseeable future keep Baja on hand. I keep a lot of dry yeast at my house and way too much liquid yeast from batches I forgot I was going to make.

I guarantee i'll cave in and try it haha. I'm likely to forget to keep some of my starter to make more starters and run out of 940 haha