Anvil Foundry Mash Eff

[McKnuckle]

Just as a point of comparison, the Speidel Braumeister is unique among mash pipe systems in that the pump pulls from outside the pipe, but pushes wort back UP inside the pipe from the bottom (i.e. not down over it with a hose).

This flow gradually compacts grain against the top disk, but gravity is available to naturally counteract that. Speidel thus includes a few "pump rest" intervals in the mash program. The pump stops for a minute, allowing grain to fall back down and re-situate. It's an elegant solution that avoids grain compaction without manual intervention.

Now back to regular programming...

 

[WeHeavy]

Just as a point of comparison, the Speidel Braumeister is unique among mash pipe systems in that the pump pulls from outside the pipe, but pushes wort back UP inside the pipe from the bottom (i.e. not down over it with a hose).

This flow gradually compacts grain against the top disk, but gravity is available to naturally counteract that. Speidel thus includes a few "pump rest" intervals in the mash program. The pump stops for a minute, allowing grain to fall back down and re-situate. It's an elegant solution that avoids grain compaction without manual intervention.

Now back to regular programming...

If only to have unlimited funds to indulge in my hobbies.

 

[augiedoggy]

Just as a point of comparison, the Speidel Braumeister is unique among mash pipe systems in that the pump pulls from outside the pipe, but pushes wort back UP inside the pipe from the bottom (i.e. not down over it with a hose).

This flow gradually compacts grain against the top disk, but gravity is available to naturally counteract that. Speidel thus includes a few "pump rest" intervals in the mash program. The pump stops for a minute, allowing grain to fall back down and re-situate. It's an elegant solution that avoids grain compaction without manual intervention.

Now back to regular programming...

I saw a video of this a while back and wondered why more designers didnt implement something like this..

 

[British-Ale-Dude]

This has been an amazing thread, besides the tinsey bits of angryish responses. Most of my research til now has gotten me little insight. This chain of responses motivated me enough to register and not just lurk.

I also have the anvil system and use brewers friend. My efficiency is horrible according to brewers friend numbers....focusing on pre-boil OG number. I now have 8 anvil brews under my belt. I have tuned the brewers friend equpment profile..weighing spent grains and going through that whole deal to get it accurate.

Sparging really just reduces my pre-boil gravity and i tried sparging many different ways...I don't sparge anymore. After pulling th basket I sometimes "fluff" the grain to help release some of the water/wort trapped within. I choke down the recirculation so much now the pump starts making a clicking sound.

I also ended up extending my mash time. I turn off recirculation for 10 minutes and stir the whole mash; let it settle and recirculate another 15. Adding a few of these cycles has extended my mash from 60 to 90 minutes. That has helped too. Just stirring the top third as anvil describes did not improve the situation, I am guessing due to the side hole design as you describe and have blocked.

WeHeavy how has adding a Biab bag helped? I assume all the grist dust and such in the boil is not a detrement...I usually leave all that slop in the anvil and only rack over the clean wort to the fermenter. I am not understanding how this improves efficiency other than maybe being able to add more clean wort to the fermenter and maybe improving overall brewhouse efficiency.

Thanks for any reply and also any other ideas...besides grain milling...I have fiddled with that too much as well as that is the only advice given in any other forum.

On a side note for anyone else in my shoes i definitely found out dumping a 2 liter starter in the fermenter totaly jacks the fermenter OG. A captain obvious statement in retrospect, but taking many readings during the process uncovered that nugget for me..

 

[Wolfgang Stout]

This is a really great thread. I am just chiming in with my (very limited) experience. I have brewed probably a total of 10 times in my life and 8 of them have been on the Anvil Foundry. I am getting better every time but my last couple batches completely stall at 1.025. I am getting a crazy strong fermentation for about 5 days then it just stops. I am nailing my OG's (as high as 1.059).

That is leading me into wonder if I am getting all the sugars off the grains. Because in theory you cant get any more consistent with temperatures that my current rig. 60min @ 150 degrees. That direction then pushes me to sparging and I am going to come out and say it right now. I hate the freaking basket. I have had nothing but problems with it. At first the ring didnt fit. I feel that it doesnt get good flow through the grain. There are always clumps in the thing. Not to mention how filthy the beer is from the grain that does get through the basket. Combine that with the original perforated disk, and I am not overly impressed with the unit. Not to mention

I am brewing 2 batches this weekend. and I am going to use a bag (how I started brewing). Hopefully, I can tweak it to get some better results.

 

[McKnuckle]

I am getting better every time but my last couple batches completely stall at 1.025. I am getting a crazy strong fermentation for about 5 days then it just stops. I am nailing my OG's (as high as 1.059).

Are you measuring FG with a refractometer, and not correcting for the presence of alcohol using this calculator?

 

[Oginme]

This chain of responses motivated me enough to register and not just lurk.

WeHeavy how has adding a Biab bag helped? I assume all the grist dust and such in the boil is not a detrement...I usually leave all that slop in the anvil and only rack over the clean wort to the fermenter. I am not understanding how this improves efficiency other than maybe being able to add more clean wort to the fermenter and maybe improving overall brewhouse efficiency.

Thanks for any reply and also any other ideas...besides grain milling...I have fiddled with that too much as well as that is the only advice given in any other forum.

Glad to have you join the discussion!

I can only speak from my experiences with the Anvil. I use a bag for three reasons.

The first is to retain more of the finer materials in the grist. While you are correct that this does not have a direct impact on the quality of the wort, it does tend to bake onto the bottom of the Anvil and makes it harder to clean. It also reduces much of the extra trub which gets transferred to the carboy. While I don't fret much over the trub during fermentation, the difference I observed in trub/yeast cake with and without a bag is dramatic. Without the bag I was seeing about 1 to 1.4 liters of fines, proteins, and yeast on the bottom of my carboy. With the bag I am at 0.5 to 0.6 liters of mostly yeast cake and coagulated proteins. I get a cleaner yeast cake out and gained a half liter of beer plus per brew.

The second reason for the bag is to allow me to adjust my grind to achieve a better mash/lauter efficiency. My conversion efficiency is consistently between 96% and 99% (most probably variation in grain moisture from spec). I get a consistent 85% +/- 1% mash/lauter efficiency on brews up to 1.080 gravity so far. I do not produce a lot of dust or flour, but do generate many 2 mm to 3 mm particles of grain kernels which easily get through the bottom screen of the Anvil.

The last reason for the bag is clean up. I found it time consuming to clean the mash basket of all the grain particulates. With the bag, I can pull it from the mash pipe, dump it into a bucket for my goats, and then do a quick wash before hanging the bag to dry. The malt basket takes about 2 to 3 minutes to clean thoroughly.

Using a bag is not a must or a need, but it fits the goals and efficiency in activity that I desire in my brewing.

 

[Wolfgang Stout]

Are you measuring FG with a refractometer, and not correcting for the presence of alcohol using this calculator?

I am using a refractometer but it has SG and Brix. I only use the SG side. Am I doing it wrong?

 

[McKnuckle]

Yes, you are doing it wrong unfortunately. Once alcohol is present, the refractometer no longer can be used to measure gravity at face value. Use the calculator link I shared, enter the Brix registered, the OG of the beer, and it will estimate the actual final gravity. Your beers did not stall at 1.025 (about 6.x Brix?). They were fully attenuated!

 

[WeHeavy]

WeHeavy how has adding a Biab bag helped?

For me it's only purpose is to limit the amount of small bits from ending up in the boil. It made a difference in how much scorching there is.

 

[WeHeavy]

I hate the freaking basket. I have had nothing but problems with it. At first the ring didnt fit. I feel that it doesnt get good flow through the grain. There are always clumps in the thing. Not to mention how filthy the beer is from the grain that does get through the basket. Combine that with the original perforated disk, and I am not overly impressed with the unit.

I agree, I'm also not overly impressed with the unit. I knew nothing about the all in ones, other than a YouTube videos. The quality issues and I think poor design don't match it's price. There I said it. I think it's poor design leads to low efficiency for a lot of people, and going to a finer crush only causes other problems with the Anvil, like compacted grain beds and more grain pieces in the boil and scorching just to name a few. I wish I had done more research before buying one, there's a lot of glowing reviews of all the different units and few honest ones.

I'm still sold on the all in ones. I just wish I had spent my money elsewhere.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

First, you are recircing too fast and compacting the grain bed. Malt pipes are so narrow that they need to flow at 1qt per minute or less. Even better, you will have better luck crushing at .028" and adding a handful of rice hulls or condition the malt and go even finer. Consider pausing your recirc for long stints like 5 mins on, 15 mins off. The thing is insulated.

@Bobby_M just curious if you have any fellow customers or known anyone to try this approach with the anvil foundry. If so what were the results of mash efficiency? Im likely going to try this approach myself on my next brew but just wanted to see if you could provide any other details. I like the foundry a lot but having only brewed three times on it, still playing around to figure the best method for me. Your idea seems like a hybrid between how the anvil was proported to work best (with recirc) and with traditional BIAB without recirc and using a bag. Thanks!

 

[bwible]

I just ordered an Anvil Foundry yesterday (they were out of stock for awhile but they are now back in). I ordered the smaller 6.5 instead of the 10 because I primarily brew smaller 3 gallon batches. It says it has an 8 lb grain capacity which is about perfect for the majority of what I usually brew. I’m fond of blonde ales and English Bitters which are lower gravity. And I still have my 5 gallon Gott cooler mash tun in the event I want to brew something bigger like 3 gallons of barleywine or imperial stout.

Thanks for sharing - Looking at the pictures, it appears the basket in the 6.5 is not perforated up the sides the way the one in the 10 is. So I think there will not be issues with this using the 6.5.

It looks like they also moved the controller up on the most recent incarnation, something people were apparently asking for.

One of the things I am also thinking about is finally having the ability to step mash due to the precise temperature control and RIMS type setup. Step mashing, even though probably 95% of people will say its not necessary with today’s highly modified malts, may increase efficiency if this is an issue? Even if we don’t do a full step mash program and just do a final mash out at 165 or 168 or whatever it is?

And yes, if there is “dead space” in the bottom and some wort is not being collected due to design or is being lost to waste and trub then that loss has to be made up or accounted for. Thats not a conversion issue, thats a loss due to equipment issue. This thing even has a rotating racking arm to help avoid junk - so if you do that you are leaving some wort behind. You account for this by formulating a bigger batch. i.e. If I want 3 gallons and am leaving half a gallon behind, then the recipe needs to be formulated as 3.5 gallons to arrive at the right gravity - not 3 gallons.

I am really looking forward to getting this. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

 

[augiedoggy]

There are still benefits to step mashing for example doing a 30min to 1 hour rest at temps between 158 and 162 will help with head retention.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

This is interesting. I have done 2 brews on the foundry, 1st a no sparge, mill gap at .035 and ended with 58% efficiency. Second was a big beer and adjusted down to a 4gal to it'd fit, mill gap at .025, 1.5qt/lb, sparged with 1.5gal. Got 65%.
It sounds like I'm recirculating too fast, I didn't realize 1qt/min was ideal. Are people sparging about that rate as well? Just running a tube to the metal plate on top or are people using sparge arms?
I might try blocking the sides next also, but this is the first I've heard of it and it seems people manage 75% without doing that.

At 0.025” did you use a bag inside the malt pipe and recirculated? Seems that at that tight it would stick on the malt-pipe at the bottom otherwise

 

[mkopec1]

I was going to buy this unit myself. But upon reading this thread Im having second thoughts. The thing that attracted me to this unit above the other ones in this price range was more accurate temp control, insulated, and 240V switch if I ever get a circuit installed.

For the grist issue you guys are having, why not just plug the larger holes up the sides and bottom with some 300-400 SS mesh? It would definitely cut down on the trub and also maybe restrict the flow a bit. Also if some of you are having problems with stuck mashes, why not just use a lb or so of rice hulls just to make sure, the stuff is cheap.

Dont know, never used the thing, but kinda bummed now. Was gonna use some tax moneys on this thing.

 

[WeHeavy]

I was going to buy this unit myself. But upon reading this thread Im having second thoughts.

Do your research, and if your lucky enough to have a HomeBrew shop near by that would have several to compare. Watch YouTube videos made by people that had to spend their own money buying one. Their videos may not be as slick but their also not trying to put a positive spin on the product because it was sent to them for review. One thing that got me was, when they show you how easy it is to set temp, they show a hand pushing buttons, what they fail to show is, getting down on your hands and knees so you can see the controller.
So don't get me wrong, I've made some really good beer with the Anvil and I'll be using it for the foreseeable future. I just think my money could of been better spent elsewhere. I'm sold on the all in ones, It's taken hours off my brew day and made brewing fun again.

 

[McKnuckle]

All of these units have the same dimensional challenge - they all are a bit tall for a tabletop, but if you put them on the floor, you have to bend down in order to use the controller. I don't see this as an Anvil-specific flaw. In fact, the smaller 6.5 gallon version has been re-designed with the controller higher up.

I don't own the Anvil, but if my Braumeister (which I love!) crapped out, I would be hard-pressed not to get the 6.5 given the feature and price comparison with competitive products. If I were in the market for a 5 gallon batch capacity model, though, I would probably raise the budget and look at some other options.

 

[WesBrew]

brew bag probably solves the issue with the malt pipe and helps with the efficiency. I would put it on top of a desk or something so its not down on the floor. the grainfather solved the controller access issue but its twice as much $ and doesn't have a 240v option. brewzilla seems to be close. they are having to remove some of the pipe screens to keep it from clogging. doesn't hold temps as close as the anvil though. all seem to need slight modifications to get it to work well, but lots of people love them and are brewing often. thats worth something

 

[ZRedIROC]

FYI Anvil just released an updated version with the controller mounted on top. It's on the new units available to ship.

 

[blaapple]

I just think my money could of been better spent elsewhere.

I’ve strongly considered an all in one system and was leaning towards the Foundry until reading this post. WeHeavy, out of curiosity, what alternative systems have/would you consider that aren’t 3x as much as the Foundry

 

[WeHeavy]

I’ve strongly considered an all in one system and was leaning towards the Foundry until reading this post. WeHeavy, out of curiosity, what alternative systems have/would you consider that aren’t 3x as much as the Foundry

I can only tell you what I've experienced with my Anvil, it has several quality issues. You can go on Facebook Anvil user group and you'll see there the same issues others are having.

I wish I knew where it was made because when I got it there was nothing on the box saying where it was made and you can't find where it was made anywhere on the unit. My guess somewhere in Asia.

There's several all-in-ones that are in the same price range as the Anvil and I think if I was to shop for another one I would YouTube them to death and go on Facebook user groups and see what's being said. Not to mention using this site for research. Plus I would try and get my hands on one. Not everyone has $500 to take a chance with.

I'm not sure how long all-in-ones have been on the market, but what I've noticed is the big named brands are coming out with updated versions with corrected design issues and better user features. Take Anvil for example they have an updated version out all ready with the controller mounted up high. Plus it seems everyday there's a new one on the market.

If you think about it the all-in-ones really are a hybrid BIAB. I think we'll be seeing more come onto the market getting better and more refined.

 

[TheBigBarleyBall]

Thanks WeHeavy for all the good info in regards to mash efficiency.
I have only been brewing for about 2 years off and on. BIAB 3 Gallon batches and bought the 10.5 Foundry about 6 months ago. I just started tacking OG readings for the first time with a refractometer. My first brew reading was only at 60% eff. After concerns I added steps to the mash making it a 90 minute mash, stirring more, and using more recirculated sparge wort. Second brew batch reading was 67% eff (Cream Ale, 12 lbs grain). Another low reading promoted me to search the internet for answers and thus lead me here. Semi-relieved to see similar problems, and also confronted with my lack of knowledge, experience, professionalism in the brew world. I really just wanted to say thanks and add a few personal points that may help others.
I set the unit to 168 and hold for 5 minutes to mash out (recirculated also). Then after pulling the mash pipe out you will notice the water temp on the digital screen drop from 168 to about 140. A number of reasons for the change, but one big reason points to the fact that temps are not the same through the grain.
I also want to say, apart from the efficiency issues, I really really like the all in one system. Anvil seems like a really good company that makes decent products for the price. They offer scratch and dent versions of the Foundry on their site, with no tax and shipping cost. I got the 10.5 for like $290. it came in near perfect condition. It was missing the racking arm and they sent one to me at no cost. Very legit.
I did not buy the recirculation pump. I dont believe its worth the extra equipment and clean up.
I did buy their 7.5 gallon fermenter. Its $130. A little high but super nice (no plastic. spout is a must). I just bought a second one. I would highly recommend it.
I do not have a lot of money to blow on hobbies and have cut many corners in the brew world, but by purchasing the foundry and fermenter you almost need nothing else. A spoon, scale, and a few cleaning supplies. It has made brew life glories as WeHeavy mentioned. I brew ever 3 to 4 weeks, and make complex and creative beers.
(I am an electrician so the 240v options on the unit and adding a 240v receptacle in the corner of the garage was an easy task, but a big bonus.)

 

[Oginme]

Thanks WeHeavy for all the good info in regards to mash efficiency.
I have only been brewing for about 2 years off and on. BIAB 3 Gallon batches and bought the 10.5 Foundry about 6 months ago. I just started tacking OG readings for the first time with a refractometer. My first brew reading was only at 60% eff. After concerns I added steps to the mash making it a 90 minute mash, stirring more, and using more recirculated sparge wort. Second brew batch reading was 67% eff (Cream Ale, 12 lbs grain). Another low reading promoted me to search the internet for answers and thus lead me here. Semi-relieved to see similar problems, and also confronted with my lack of knowledge, experience, professionalism in the brew world. I really just wanted to say thanks and add a few personal points that may help others.
I set the unit to 168 and hold for 5 minutes to mash out (recirculated also). Then after pulling the mash pipe out you will notice the water temp on the digital screen drop from 168 to about 140. A number of reasons for the change, but one big reason points to the fact that temps are not the same through the grain.
I also want to say, apart from the efficiency issues, I really really like the all in one system. Anvil seems like a really good company that makes decent products for the price. They offer scratch and dent versions of the Foundry on their site, with no tax and shipping cost. I got the 10.5 for like $290. it came in near perfect condition. It was missing the racking arm and they sent one to me at no cost. Very legit.
I did not buy the recirculation pump. I dont believe its worth the extra equipment and clean up.
I did buy their 7.5 gallon fermenter. Its $130. A little high but super nice (no plastic. spout is a must). I just bought a second one. I would highly recommend it.
I do not have a lot of money to blow on hobbies and have cut many corners in the brew world, but by purchasing the foundry and fermenter you almost need nothing else. A spoon, scale, and a few cleaning supplies. It has made brew life glories as WeHeavy mentioned. I brew ever 3 to 4 weeks, and make complex and creative beers.
(I am an electrician so the 240v options on the unit and adding a 240v receptacle in the corner of the garage was an easy task, but a big bonus.)

A few comments based upon my choice of the Anvil 6.5 gal over the 10 gal version. I also brew a smaller batch size (10 liters = 2.8 gal) so having an option of a unit which works at the batch size I most typically brew was important. I talked at length with a couple of the Anvil/Blichmann people at Homebrew Con in Providence with an eye towards purchasing an all in one unit. When I asked about the smallest batch size which the 10 gal unit could consistently handle, both of the engineers and their customer service people via email were all pretty consistent in stating that with the side perforations of the mash basket on the larger unit, there would be a loss of mash efficiency with batch sizes below 3 to 4 gallons (depending upon who I talked with.)

I contemplated making a block out of SS shim stock, but finally went for the 6.5 gallon version. I brew a 5 gallon batch so seldom these days, that it really does not make sense to purchase a unit where I am consistently operating at the bottom end of its capability. Recently, Anvil has been trialing a removable piece to block the side perforations which in initial runs has seemed to help with achieving a much better efficiency for the user who is doing the testing.

It took me a few brews to get my process down with the new device (I had previously been doing stove top BIAB at the above mentioned 10 liter batch size) and then about 4 brews with adjustments to my grain mill to get the efficiency to where I achieved repeatable and consistent results. I am currently getting mash/lauter efficiencies in the 84% to 85% range. This is with a 60 minute mash, 10 minute mash out, recirculation of the wort, and use of a filter bag to line the mash basket.

In short, these devices are not limited to low efficiency issues and with just a little work can be optimized.

 

[bleme]

After concerns I added steps to the mash making it a 90 minute mash, stirring more, and using more recirculated sparge wort....
I set the unit to 168 and hold for 5 minutes to mash out (recirculated also)....
I did not buy the recirculation pump. I dont believe its worth the extra equipment and clean up.

Please clarify this.

 

[WesBrew]

Please clarify this.

maybe vorlaufing during the mash?

 

[skidoofus]

I know the title of the thread but hey does this thing make good beer? I just brewed my third only one is old enough to drink it’s an Austin home brew chocolate stout kit and everybody absolutely loves it. I got exactly the ABV that the kit was supposed to put out and I think I exceeded expectations on the next two beers. I see a lot of mathematics floating around here and I guess I haven’t been brewing long enough to get caught up in all that. I’m just tickled to be doing all grain beers this easily. I think that’s the point, there will always be a tipping point between pros and cons depending on YOU. RDWAHAHB

 

[skidoofus]

I know the title of the thread but hey does this thing make good beer? I just brewed my third only one is old enough to drink it’s an Austin home brew chocolate stout kit and everybody absolutely loves it. I got exactly the ABV that the kit was supposed to put out and I think I exceeded expectations on the next two beers. I see a lot of mathematics floating around here and I guess I haven’t been brewing long enough to get caught up in all that. I’m just tickled to be doing all grain beers this easily. I think that’s the point, there will always be tipping point between pros and cons depending on YOU. RDWAHAHB

And yes! Adding a mesh bag to the pipe is an excellent and necessary 5 dollar modification

 

[TheBigBarleyBall]

Please clarify this.

I just use a 3 qt picture. There is a spigot on the bottom of the Foundry. I fill the picture and pour over the grain bed a few times. i do this a few times through the mash at the different steps, and then at the sparge once the grain is lifted out in the mash pipe. You can use hot water too but need to figure in the volume difference.

 

[TheBigBarleyBall]

The sum of the problem addressed in this forum is highlighted on the http://braukaiser.com/wiki mentioned earlier.

"Another important parameter for fly sparging, which is of no significant importance to batch sparging, is the design of the lauter tun (or mash/lauter tun if the same vessel is used). It is important that it allows for uniform wort collection at the bottom of the grain bed without creating single or preferred drain points. This is best accomplished though a perforated plate on which the grain rests, but many brewers also have had good success with a manifold design consisting of slotted or perforated pipes. In his book How To Brew, John Palmer has a complete chapter dedicated to the science of lauter manifold designs [Palmer, 2006]."