Another water question for ajdelange

[winvarin]

AJ
I appreciate all the help you gave me for the lighter brew I made last weekend. I have some questions for my next beer. I am doing the AG Pliny the Elder clone kit from morebeer.com. Looking at this, for 5 gallons I am assuming a grain bill of approx. 85% 2 row, 5% Crystal malt, 5% Carapils, and 5% sugar (in the kettle). I confirmed with morebeer.com that there are hops included designed to be used in the mash.

My base water profile is this: Ca 56; Mg 26; Na 23; Cl 10; SO4 3 with a RA of 192

I plan to make a 2:1 mix of distilled water to tap water as it makes it much easier to bring my alkalinity to a range that I can modify with brewing salts.

With that mix, my new profile is: Ca 18; Mg 9; Na 8; Cl 3; SO4 1 with a RA of 63

I used the EZ spreadsheet because I am still trying to get a handle on your Nearly Universal sheet. I did however, as you recommended before, overlook the recommendations made on the SRM suitability for RA, and the recommendation made based on chloride to sulfate ratio.

That being said, I came up with three possible salt addition profiles, one using gypsum, the other using CaCl. (Mash water is assumed at 5 gal. Sparge water is 6 gal)

One
An addition of 3g of gypsum to my mash water and 3.4g to my sparge water will yield Ca 54; Mg 9; Na 8; Cl 3; SO4 89 with a RA of 38

You seemed to show a preference to CaCl when we were discussing my lighter, lowly hopped beer, primarily because of the increase in sulfate. While a higher sulfate may not pose as big a problem with something as highly hopped as a Pliny clone, I ran the numbers trying to bring the Calcium up by CaCl instead.

Two
An addition of 2.5g of CaCl to my mash water and 3 g to my sparge water will yield Ca 54; Mg 9; Na 8; Cl 67; SO4 1 with a RA of 38

The Cl seems a bit high to me. "Flavor and fullness" per Palmer's book are not clearly defined, so I decided to try a mix of gypsum and CaCl.

Three
I tried 2g of gypsum and 1g of CaCl in my mash, plus 2 g gypsum and 1 g of CaCl in my sparge water. That yields:

Ca 53; Mg 9; Na 8; Cl 26; SO4 55 with a RA of 36

To me, that seems to keep both the sulfates and chloride in check a little better while still bumping up calcium and lowering RA. So a couple of questions:

1. Option 3 or something close seems to be the best route to me. Agree?

2. As for "something close", I am thinking if I would want to do anything here, it would be to boost the hardness a bit (Ca, SO4 or possibly Mg and SO4 in the form of a small amount, 1g in the mash, of epsom salt)

3. With me bringing the RA down so much, do I need to do anything else to adjust mash pH? I admit I am still a little fuzzy as to the exact correlation correlation between RA of your brewing water and its effect on mash pH. Using Palmer's "rule of thumb" if adding 20% crystal to your grain bill can yield a pH drop of .5, the effects of 5% crystal in my grain bill are likely to be negligible.

4. This is a Pliny clone and calls for adding hops to the mash (about 1 ounce I believe, still waiting on the kit to arrive). Will the acids from the hops have any effect on mash pH. If so, do I need to account for that at all?

 

[ajdelange]

I am doing the AG Pliny the Elder clone kit from morebeer.com. Looking at this, for 5 gallons I am assuming a grain bill of approx. 85% 2 row, 5% Crystal malt, 5% Carapils, and 5% sugar (in the kettle). I confirmed with morebeer.com that there are hops included designed to be used in the mash.

My base water profile is this: Ca 56; Mg 26; Na 23; Cl 10; SO4 3 with a RA of 192

I plan to make a 2:1 mix of distilled water to tap water as it makes it much easier to bring my alkalinity to a range that I can modify with brewing salts.

With that mix, my new profile is: Ca 18; Mg 9; Na 8; Cl 3; SO4 1 with a RA of 63


That being said, I came up with three possible salt addition profiles, one using gypsum, the other using CaCl. (Mash water is assumed at 5 gal. Sparge water is 6 gal)

One
An addition of 3g of gypsum to my mash water and 3.4g to my sparge water will yield Ca 54; Mg 9; Na 8; Cl 3; SO4 89 with a RA of 38

You seemed to show a preference to CaCl when we were discussing my lighter, lowly hopped beer, primarily because of the increase in sulfate. While a higher sulfate may not pose as big a problem with something as highly hopped as a Pliny clone, I ran the numbers trying to bring the Calcium up by CaCl instead.

Two
An addition of 2.5g of CaCl to my mash water and 3 g to my sparge water will yield Ca 54; Mg 9; Na 8; Cl 67; SO4 1 with a RA of 38

The Cl seems a bit high to me. "Flavor and fullness" per Palmer's book are not clearly defined, so I decided to try a mix of gypsum and CaCl.

Three
I tried 2g of gypsum and 1g of CaCl in my mash, plus 2 g gypsum and 1 g of CaCl in my sparge water. That yields:

Ca 53; Mg 9; Na 8; Cl 26; SO4 55 with a RA of 36

To me, that seems to keep both the sulfates and chloride in check a little better while still bumping up calcium and lowering RA. So a couple of questions:

1. Option 3 or something close seems to be the best route to me. Agree?

Given the name of the beer I assume it is all about hops so in this case I would think you might want to start with the high sulfate levels but by all means experiment with this as you strive to improve your version of it. As it is a clone you might try calling the brewery and asking what their water profile is then trying to match that. Do they get the hops character by just using lots and lots of hops or lots and lots of sulfate or both? They might not be willing to tell you but then again they might. Also, of course, ask if they add anything to the water before brewing with it.

2. As for "something close", I am thinking if I would want to do anything here, it would be to boost the hardness a bit (Ca, SO4 or possibly Mg and SO4 in the form of a small amount, 1g in the mash, of epsom salt)

Calcium is always beneficial both in that it lowers RA and thus mash pH as well as doing good things in the kettle and fermenter. As to whether you get it more from chloride or sulfate should be determined by experiment. Even if you get the brewer's exact mineral profile you will want to tweak that for your grain bill, your equipment, your procedure... You really can't expect to hit it first try.

3. With me bringing the RA down so much, do I need to do anything else to adjust mash pH? I admit I am still a little fuzzy as to the exact correlation correlation between RA of your brewing water and its effect on mash pH. Using Palmer's "rule of thumb" if adding 20% crystal to your grain bill can yield a pH drop of .5, the effects of 5% crystal in my grain bill are likely to be negligible.

The more you bring the RA down the better (lower) the mash pH.The rule of thumb is 0.00168 pH unit reduction for every ppm as CaCO3 RA reduction. Thus reducing your RA from 192 to 38 will give you about 0.26 pH reduction assuming a whole lot of things (i.e. base malt only, malt similar to what Kolbach experimented with...)

4. This is a Pliny clone and calls for adding hops to the mash (about 1 ounce I believe, still waiting on the kit to arrive). Will the acids from the hops have any effect on mash pH. If so, do I need to account for that at all?

I'll say no. I would consider a beer with 100 IBU to be very bitter. 100 IBU corresponds approximately to 100 mg/L isohumulone which is only 0.28 mmol/L. While I have no idea what the pK or pK's of isohumulone might be I expect they are quite high so that the acid isn't much dissociated at mash pH. But assuming that one proton is almost completely let go then you would have 0.28 mEq/L hydrogen ions which will decrease alkalinity (and RA) by 0.28*50 = 14 ppm as CaCO3. Even that isn't much and, as noted, I'm guessing it will be less than that.

 

[winvarin]

Given the name of the beer I assume it is all about hops so in this case I would think you might want to start with the high sulfate levels but by all means experiment with this as you strive to improve your version of it. As it is a clone you might try calling the brewery and asking what their water profile is then trying to match that. Do they get the hops character by just using lots and lots of hops or lots and lots of sulfate or both? They might not be willing to tell you but then again they might. Also, of course, ask if they add anything to the water before brewing with it.

That's a great idea and I will try on Monday. I would imagine they would be willing to be forthcoming with some of the information. From what I have seen on the web, this brewer (Russian River in CA) is very homebrew friendly. The head brewer has been known to give out a fairly close approximation of the recipe in public forums. The all grain kit I purchased is actually marketed under the name (and presumably with the permission) of the brewery.

As for the bitterness by sulfate vs. bitterness by hopping, the beer exceeds 100 IBUs. I have had a couple of the commercially released version of this beer and my perception has been one of "clean" hop flavor and aroma. The character of individual hops shine through. This is in contrast to the more earthy flavor I associate with high sulfate british beers. Granted some of that may come from the differences between NW American hops and traditional British hops.

With what I have read in your writings about Sulfates in the last week, my inclination is to go with a balanced approach for my first attempt (using small amounts of both CaCl and gypsum). From what I can tell of the 3 options I provided, all of them put my RA and mineral concentrations in similar ranges.

I can always try again with the other options and see which taste the best.

That being said, on any of the options, what is your opinion as to where I have my numbers set? Would you suggest I boost calcium beyond the low to mid 50s for a beer like this? If so, would you suggest additional gypsum or CaCl for that?

I'm worried the chloride would "dampen" the bitterness I am going for if I push the CaCl up high enough to have any appreciable increase on the Ca. So my first thought is that any additional calcium adjustment to my blended option (option 3) would be best coming from Gypsum.

 

[winvarin]

Taken with a grain of salt (pun definitely intended), I searched this forum for a possible profile matching that of the brewery. It blew my theory on trying to keep the sulfate low for the first batch. Per the thread I found, a member who goes by the name "Saq" claims to have gotten the following numbers from the brewery for their water:

CA MG NA HCO3 SO4 CL
76 13 9 26 133 56

Again using the EZ spreadsheet, I tried to approximate this water with my 2:1 mix of distilled and tap water. My additions are:

Mash water
Gypsum 3g
CaCl 2g
Epsom salt 1g

Sparge water
Gypsum 3g
CaCl 2g
Epsom salt 1g

This would make my blended/treated water
CA 77 (+1 from profile)
MG 13 (+0 from profile)
NA 8 (-1 from profile)
HCO3 ?? (not sure how to calculate on this sheet)
SO4 100 (-33 from profile)
CL 50 (-6 from profile)

The sheet also puts my RA at 14 (which is not too shabby, if I remember you saying RA for distilled is 2.5, right?) That would certainly mean that I would not need to be AS concerned with mash pH with this water, base malt and crystal.

 

[ajdelange]

This target water is very low in bicarbonates and yours isn't so you will need lots of dilution to match their RA. If I set up the problem to minimize the mean square log error (get the percentage errors for the assemblage of ions) as low as possible and allowing dilution as a parameter I get a 10.49:1 dilution ratio and the requirement to add 1.094 grams calcium chloride, 0.202 grqms NaCl, 2.013 grmas gypsum, 1.225 g epsom salts and 10.49 liters of DI/RO water to each liter of the tap water. If you do that your calcium will be low 5.8%, the magnesium low 1.7%, the bicarbonate high 0.8%, the sulfate high 4.9% the chloride high 2.7% and the sodium low 0.6%. Your RA would be - 34.

If you stick with a 2:1 dilution errors get larger - especially the bicarbonate at + 286%. Dilution or decarbonation are the only ways to beat that. Calcium would be at + 16%, magnesium at 3.8%, sulfate -8.2% and sodium + 1.3%. RA would be 13. This would require .296 grams CaCl2, .011 g NaCL, .548 g gypsum, .142 g epsom salts and 2 liters of RO/DI water to be added to each liter of the tap water.

Part of the reason you can't get better matching is that neither your water profile nor the target water profiles are balanced in charge. You cannot synthesize a water with imbalanced charge and a source with imbalanced charge cannot exist. It should be little wonder then that you can't match them exactly.

 

[winvarin]

This target water is very low in bicarbonates and yours isn't so you will need lots of dilution to match their RA. If I set up the problem to minimize the mean square log error (get the percentage errors for the assemblage of ions) as low as possible and allowing dilution as a parameter I get a 10.49:1 dilution ratio and the requirement to add 1.094 grams calcium chloride, 0.202 grqms NaCl, 2.013 grmas gypsum, 1.225 g epsom salts and 10.49 liters of DI/RO water to each liter of the tap water. If you do that your calcium will be low 5.8%, the magnesium low 1.7%, the bicarbonate high 0.8%, the sulfate high 4.9% the chloride high 2.7% and the sodium low 0.6%. Your RA would be - 34.

If you stick with a 2:1 dilution errors get larger - especially the bicarbonate at + 286%. Dilution or decarbonation are the only ways to beat that. Calcium would be at + 16%, magnesium at 3.8%, sulfate -8.2% and sodium + 1.3%. RA would be 13. This would require .296 grams CaCl2, .011 g NaCL, .548 g gypsum, .142 g epsom salts and 2 liters of RO/DI water to be added to each liter of the tap water.

Part of the reason you can't get better matching is that neither your water profile nor the target water profiles are balanced in charge. You cannot synthesize a water with imbalanced charge and a source with imbalanced charge cannot exist. It should be little wonder then that you can't match them exactly.

So if I can't match the water by dilution (because of my high bicarbonate), is one of my original 3 options better? Just understanding that I won't exactly match the water?

Or is it better to try to use 100% distilled and add minerals to get my ca/Mg/Na/Cl/SO4 in the ballpark?

 

[ajdelange]

The "best" you are going to be able to do, with best defined in terms of the closest match to the target, is the 10.5:1 dilution I mentioned in the last post. If you go with a 2:1 dilution, then bicarbonate is going to be very high and bicarbonate is the thing that can hurt you most as it is the cause of alkalinity. So with that in mind you would doubtless do better with distilled water because with that you start with only the 2.5 ppm alkalinity of DI water. You won't be able to match the target as well with 100% DI water because bicarbonate will be lower than the target's but less bicarb is nearly always a good thing.

If you add the following to each litre of DI water:

CaCl2 120 mg
NaCl .07 mg (so little you can skip it)
CaSO2 163 mg
MgSO4 130 mg
NaHCO3 32.5 mg

You will match the profile with the following percent errors:

Ca -7%
Mg -2.1%
HCO3 -27%
SO4 +6.2%
Cl +3.4%
Na -0.8%

This is a pretty good match with most of the error in the bicarbonate which is too low. The RA for this mix would be about -36 and the pH would (assuming you tao water is at pH 7) rise to 8.4 (because of the sodium bicarbonate addition).

 

[winvarin]

So let's put aside trying to match the exact profile for a moment and focus on what would allow me to brew the best highly hopped IPA that I can using a reasonable amount of my water.

I ask this because as you point out, a 10.5:1 dilution doesn't seem far off from using almost pure distilled water.

Given the profile of my water:

1. Would one of my original 3 options with a 2:1 dilution work?

2. I am not sure I understand why a 2:1 dilution with relatively minor salt additions (from our discussion last week) was fine for a light-bodied, lowly-hopped beer with minimal grain beyond base malt and wheat and rye malts. Yet a highly bitter beer with some specialty grains is going to be hurt by my alkalinity, even though the salt additions I am looking at are greater and appear to bring my alkalinity down more than the salt additions I made on the lighter beer.

That being said, I did wind up putting 4 ounces of acidulated malt in last week's beer. Do you believe that had a significant enough effect on my RA that I was better off last time with 2:1, salts, and the malt than I would be with 2:1 and one of the 3 salt addition options I mention?

3. Is bicarbonate's primary effect on brewing water is that it counteracts acidity, throwing your mash pH out of whack for beers that do not use dark roasted grains? If so, what is the perceptive outcome of using high bicarbonate water to brew beers? i.e., what effects will it have that I will notice in the finish products versus a water whose alkaline content is much lower?

3a. Correct or confirm an assumption here. In terms of "ppm" values when evaluating brewing water, are bicarbonate and RA the same?

3b. Given my option 3 above (a 2:1 dilution with 2g of gypsum and 1g of CaCl in my mash, plus 2 g gypsum and 1 g of CaCl in my sparge water - yielding Ca 53; Mg 9; Na 8; Cl 26; SO4 55 with a RA of 36), would I get enough impact by adding a couple of ounces of acid malt? (I have 2 ounces left over from the purchase I made last week).

4. Do you have guidelines for RA as it relates to beer style? Not SRM recommendations, but say something along the lines of (a malty lager made mostly from base pilsner malt would be best when brewed in this RA; whereas a stout would be best in this RA range).

5. How would I relate RA to mash pH. I know Palmer has the nomograph in his book. But I think I read in another post on this forum where you do not believe the nomograph calculates accurately. So if I know my calcium and Mg concentrations and can derive my RA from those (or from one of the various spreadsheets available) how do I account for the grains in my recipe in order to determine if any further salt additions are necessary to get me at (or at least near) that 5.2 sweet spot.

I appreciate your patience and willingness to share your knowledge. I do feel like I am trying to tread in awfully deep water a lot of the times. But I am willing to stick with it because my ultimate goal is the continued improvement in the quality of my beer. I may have to ask similar questions several times before the answers finally sink in. But hopefully it's because each time, the question, and the answer, lead me to consider another facet of the larger picture,

 

[ajdelange]

So let's put aside trying to match the exact profile for a moment and focus on what would allow me to brew the best highly hopped IPA that I can using a reasonable amount of my water.

1. Would one of my original 3 options with a 2:1 dilution work?

Putting aside matching a profile the goal is to combat alkalinity of which you have more than can be practically offset by calcium additions. That leaves decarbonation by boiling or lime treatment and dilution. Dilution is simpler if you have a handy supply of DI water. So really any of your three proposed options would work with a 2:1 dilution and as they all have the same amount of calcium from the alkalinity POV they should all work equally well. A 3:1 dilution would work better and a 4:1 better still and so on. This is because alkalinity hurts you 3.5 times more than calcium helps.

2. I am not sure I understand why a 2:1 dilution with relatively minor salt additions (from our discussion last week) was fine for a light-bodied, lowly-hopped beer with minimal grain beyond base malt and wheat and rye malts. Yet a highly bitter beer with some specialty grains is going to be hurt by my alkalinity, even though the salt additions I am looking at are greater and appear to bring my alkalinity down more than the salt additions I made on the lighter beer.

A 2:1 dilution would work here. The question is whether there is anything you can do to do it better. Theoretically, getting mash pH correct is very important. Get that right and pH will be in the right range throughout the rest of the brew. I say "theoretically" because there are many brewers, home and professional who never give it a thought. The brewer at a local gastropub says he hadn't seen a pH meter since his days at UCD where he studied under Michael Lewis who once wrote an article titled "pH pHooey!". Lewis tells his students that their water is unique to them and it's properties, whatever they may be, should be a part of the profile of the portfolio of beers they brew. Without measurement and control a good brewer will eventually stumble upon the right thing to do (and I've been in a lot of brewpubs where they are definitely stumbling).

That being said, I did wind up putting 4 ounces of acidulated malt in last week's beer. Do you believe that had a significant enough effect on my RA that I was better off last time with 2:1, salts, and the malt than I would be with 2:1 and one of the 3 salt addition options I mention?

Absolutely! I keep noting here that few brewers (and again I include some pro's here) seem to understand that most beers will require some acid to hit proper mash pH. Any of the 2:1 dilutions you mentioned with 2-3% sauermalz is very probably going to get you in the right range. Example from the Kölsch I brewed yesterday: I use 9:1:: RO:well water with enough CaCl2 to get to about 25ppm Calcium (that's all the treatment I do for most of my beers). 3% sauermalz got me pH 5.45 at dough in and 5.15 in the fermenter. This AM it's at 4.79 (indicating the yeast are doing fine).

3. Is bicarbonate's primary effect on brewing water is that it counteracts acidity, throwing your mash pH out of whack for beers that do not use dark roasted grains?

Yes. Alkalinity = 50*bicarbonate/61 (pH<8.3). RA = alkalinity -(Ca + Mg/2)/3.5

If so, what is the perceptive outcome of using high bicarbonate water to brew beers? i.e., what effects will it have that I will notice in the finish products versus a water whose alkaline content is much lower?

Put some sodium bicarbonate in a glass of water and taste it. Not very good, is it? If you brew with high alkalinity water and don't do anything to correct that you will wind up with a pH of 5.8 or 5.9. At 5.9, 25% of the bicarbonate in the water stays as bicarbonate into the fermenter where it will buffer against the acids the yeast release to establish the conditions under which they do best. At pH 4.45 (what I hit yesterday) only 10% stays as bicarb. The rest converts to CO2 and is driven off by the boil and the yeast can establish a fermenter pH in the mid 4's (or lower depending on strain). At 4.5 only 1% of bicarbonate survives whereas at pH 5, 4% does. And, since the reason you would have a fermenter pH closer to 5 than 4.5 is because you had lots more bicarbonate to start with. So beers brewed with high alkalinity water will have more of that bicarbonate taste and I guess that the way I'd describe it in a beer is that it makes it kind of flat and lifeless. But then the higher mash, kettle and fermenter pH will also prevent the various enzymes from working as well as they could and that probably translates into dull beer as well.

3a. Correct or confirm an assumption here. In terms of "ppm" values when evaluating brewing water, are bicarbonate and RA the same?

Alkalinity = 50*bicarbonate/61 (pH<8.3). RA = alkalinity -50*(Ca/20 + Mg/25.3)/3.5 = (50*bicarbonate/61) -50*(Ca/20 + Mg/25.3)/3.5

bicarbonate, Ca and Mg are all in mg/L as the ion i.e. the way they would appear on a Ward Labs report.

So while they are not quite the same if alkalinity goes up 100, RA goes up 100 also.

3b. Given my option 3 above (a 2:1 dilution with 2g of gypsum and 1g of CaCl in my mash, plus 2 g gypsum and 1 g of CaCl in my sparge water - yielding Ca 53; Mg 9; Na 8; Cl 26; SO4 55 with a RA of 36), would I get enough impact by adding a couple of ounces of acid malt? (I have 2 ounces left over from the purchase I made last week).

The rule of thumb is 0.1 pH for each percent of the grist. Thus in the example of yesterday's brew my mash pH of 5.45 is presumably 0.3 pH, from 3% sauermalz) lower than it would have been (5.75) if I hadn't used it and that's about right because 5.75 is about what I get with a distilled water mash and the water I am using is very soft. So yes, 2 Oz is better than 0 Oz.

4. Do you have guidelines for RA as it relates to beer style? Not SRM recommendations, but say something along the lines of (a malty lager made mostly from base pilsner malt would be best when brewed in this RA; whereas a stout would be best in this RA range).

If you go to www.wetnewf.org you will find a residual alaklinity chart which is a .pdf you can download. This chart plots the water profiles of well known brewing centers by alkalinity vs. effective hardness (half the Mg + the Ca). There are diagonal lines on the chart which represent constant RA. So if you are interested in Stout you can locate Dublin, see which line it is closest to and conclude that that's what Arthur Guiness had to work with. The may not be a correct conclusion but it's probably a workable starting place. You have to bear in mind, however, that stouts are also brewed in London and Quatre Bournes (on the island of Mauritius in the Indian Ocean) so what you really get from the chart is an inkling of what the water that launced the style might have been like.

5. How would I relate RA to mash pH.

pH = pHo + 0.00168*RA is what Kolbach came up with (you can find a translation of his paper at the website too.) pHo is the pH you would get if you mashed the grist with distilled water. This assumes a lot of things - for one that only base malts are being used. Keep in mind that Kolbach was concerned mostly with lager beers so how well the rule is adhered to with ales (or even among lagers) is uncertain. That's why I think RA is a parameter best reserved for comparing waters realative to one another (that's what the chart does) rather than using it to predict, other than roughly, what mash pH might be. Measure and correct is my philosphy.

I know Palmer has the nomograph in his book. But I think I read in another post on this forum where you do not believe the nomograph calculates accurately. So if I know my calcium and Mg concentrations and can derive my RA from those (or from one of the various spreadsheets available) how do I account for the grains in my recipe in order to determine if any further salt additions are necessary to get me at (or at least near) that 5.2 sweet spot.

I have no problem with John's nomograph in terms of its ability to calculate RA from alkalinity, Ca and Mg. Where I strongly diverge is where you continue that line to the top to see what color beer you should brew with this water. The loaded question is the last one: how do you account for the grain bill. The answer involves knowing the titratable acidity of each grain you use. Kai Troester has done lots of measurements. But the calculations would be tricky, malt would differ from lot to lot, dry vs "as is" grain weights would come into etc. This is why I advocate "measure and correct".

I do feel like I am trying to tread in awfully deep water a lot of the times. But I am willing to stick with it because my ultimate goal is the continued improvement in the quality of my beer.

Your persistence will pay off. It may take a while - I've been at this for about 20 years and still don't understand it all - but eventually you will get a feel for it but that won't come if you grope in the dark by which I mean if you can't see the effects of water chemistry change on pH. That's not the whole story, of course, there is the taste part of the equation and they are related (add more calcium to lower RA to get lower pH --> more mineral taste in the beer).

 

[Yooper]

Great dialogue and information for us to read. Thanks to both of you for intelligent questions and answers that educate as well as make us think.

Water chemistry is relatively new thing for me- it's like the "last frontier" of brewing for me. As someone with very alkaline water and a high RA, I've been doing the RO/tap mixing and adding salts but haven't done the acidulated malt.

Very good info!

 

[winvarin]

Put some sodium bicarbonate in a glass of water and taste it. Not very good, is it? If you brew with high alkalinity water and don't do anything to correct that you will wind up with a pH of 5.8 or 5.9. At 5.9, 25% of the bicarbonate in the water stays as bicarbonate into the fermenter where it will buffer against the acids the yeast release to establish the conditions under which they do best. At pH 4.45 (what I hit yesterday) only 10% stays as bicarb. The rest converts to CO2 and is driven off by the boil and the yeast can establish a fermenter pH in the mid 4's (or lower depending on strain). At 4.5 only 1% of bicarbonate survives whereas at pH 5, 4% does. And, since the reason you would have a fermenter pH closer to 5 than 4.5 is because you had lots more bicarbonate to start with. So beers brewed with high alkalinity water will have more of that bicarbonate taste and I guess that the way I'd describe it in a beer is that it makes it kind of flat and lifeless. But then the higher mash, kettle and fermenter pH will also prevent the various enzymes from working as well as they could and that probably translates into dull beer as well.

I think you may have hit on my biggest problem, and identified alkalinity as its root cause.

I brewed a Saison a couple of months ago, trying to approximate the flavor and aroma of Ommegang's Hennepin. I like the bold, citrusy, hop-forward crisp flavor that you get from that beer.

I nailed my desired mash temperatures, fermented in the upper 70s and hit just shy of 80% attenuation. But I also used my undiluted water; the only treatment being drawing it through an activated charcoal filter. It spent a month in the fermenter and another 3 weeks in the bottle before I tasted the first one (last weekend).

My evaluation? It's a decent beer, but it was nowhere near as bold (flavor and aroma) as what I was looking for. You finally hit on the adjective that I was looking for ... "dull". I pick up hints of what I'm looking for (a little citrus, a little crisp bitterness). But it all seems a bit muted to me.

Seeing as how I took control over almost every step in the process except the water, I can only assume that my water and its alkalinity affected the final product. It's a good beer, but not the great beer I aimed for.

I've long avoided too much distilled water mixing in my brewing because I had always heard that distilled water alone does not have the nutrients needed for proper yeast growth. It doesn't help that I didn't get my water tested for the first time until earlier this year.

 

[ajf]

This thread make my brain hurt.

-a.

 

[ajdelange]

I've long avoided too much distilled water mixing in my brewing because I had always heard that distilled water alone does not have the nutrients needed for proper yeast growth.

The malt itself contains enough minerals to sustain a viable fermentation. It doesn't hurt, however, to supplement the calcium.