Another Sulfide Bomb

[RPh_Guy]

1 gal Simply Apple, pasteurized, unfiltered
6 whole apples, frozen twice.
2.5g Cote des Blancs, sprinkled
0.5g pectinase

OG 1.054
I added the juice, apples, and pectinase in a bucket covered with a towel for about 24 hours before pitching yeast. The apples needed to thaw.
Fermented at 56-57°F with the apples, still covered with the towel.

4 days after pitching, huge sulfide (AKA sulfur) aroma developed. Checked gravity 1.036 (right at the 1/3 sugar break).
I squeezed the bag with apples as best I could and removed them.
Added 2g Fermaid O, degassed thoroughly, and transferred all of it into a glass carboy with airlock.
Still getting a lot of sulfide aroma 24 hours after the nutrient.

Needs more nutrient?
Premier Cuvee ruined me because I never had off-flavors. I guess I should baby any other yeast I use. I have GoFerm, just didn't think I'd need it.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Should be OK, sulfur odors during fermentation of apple juice is common. Proper yeast nutrition, including D.A.P. is a big part of preventing them in the 1st place, but some yeast strains will generate more odors than others. This sulfur odor will eventually dissipate, just give it proper temp & nutrients, it should be fine. Do a site search for "rhino farts" you'll see how common sulfur odors are.
Regards, GF.

 

[Maylar]

Stir it again, a couple times a day for the next week. It'll go away.

 

[ten80]

I've had luck removing sulfide flavors and odor by dropping a boiled, 2-3" long piece of copper pipe into the cider for a 24-28 hrs, then racking off to a new vessel using CO2. The sulfides bind to the copper and the CO2 helps blow off some of the sulfur aromas. Just don't leave the copper in for too long as the low pH of the cider will begin to dissolve it.

I used Cotes Des Blancs last year in fresh-pressed juice with no nutrients added and had no sulfur aromas. I did ferment below 55F which may have helped reduce yeast stress by slowing fermentation rates.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Cote des Blancs is listed as low H2S potential so I really didn't expect it with the over-pitch and cool temperature... and certainly not continuing after adding nutrient.

I've been aggressively swirling the fermenter a couple times daily to degas.

If it still smells like ass after a few weeks, my plan is to rack onto 60ppm sulfite, drop in my copper wort chiller, and stir like crazy for a couple minutes with a drill-powered tool.

Next batch it will get "the works" with GoFerm, SNA, and open fermentation with daily aeration for a few days.

 

[Maylar]

Honestly I've only had one batch in all the ciders I've made that smelled of pharts. That was an S-04 batch in the mid 60's F and I had run out of yeast nutrient, so I decided to skip it. Bad idea. Stirring for a few days after adding nutrients made the stink go away. I do rehydrate my yeasts and sometimes use GoFerm with my ciders but never get carried away with SNA like I do with mead and cysers. But that one experience has tainted my opinion of S-04 and it's time I found something else. Cote des Blancs is one I want to try. It's listed as having "medium" nitrogen requirements, FWIW.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'll try another gram of Fermaid O.

By stirring do you mean vigorously to aerate?

 

[ten80]

Wine research suggests that adding oxygen can create disulfide compounds which are more persistent, so I'd avoid adding oxygen if at all possible. Swirling to degass would help release CO2 and carry away some of the hydrogen sulfide (H2S) from solution which is quite volatile.

Also you only need add a very small piece of copper to reduce the parts-per-million of sulfides present in your cider. A whole wort chiller is overkill by a few orders of magnitude. The article linked above does add the caveat that copper should only be added to a completed fermentation otherwise the yeast may bind to the copper.

I believe I have also read that adding sulfite (sodium or potassium metabisulfite) is not recommended when sulfide odors are present because you do not want add any additional sulfur to solution which could potentially be reduced to H2S.

If your fermentation is complete, then I suggest hanging a small piece of boiled copper pipe (boiled to sanitize) on a piece of dental floss (not mint!) in your carboy for a few days and swirling regularly to release CO2 and rouse the yeast.

If your fermentation is not complete, than a little Fermaid O would help restore yeast health. Fermaid O is probably the best choice given that it is readily taken up by any active yeast, moreso than inorganic nutrients such as DAP.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks for posting the article. I'd read it before but forgot about it.

This is my take home:
Prevention via nutrients and racking within 24-48h after fermentation finishes.
After fermentation if there's only H2S they suggest aeration.
If there are mercaptan odors or if H2S persists then add copper.

Sulfite is used commonly enough that I'm not going to worry about using it to prevent oxidation after fermentation.
The sulfate ions in copper sulfate most commonly used for treatment don't seem to be an issue, otherwise the industry would use copper (II) chloride.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Maylar]

I'll try another gram of Fermaid O.

By stirring do you mean vigorously to aerate?

No, just enough to release some bubbles. The sulfur seems to go out with the CO2 bubbles.

 

[dmtaylor]

Sulfur is normal and will dissipate in time. 4 days is not very long. Try 4 weeks or better, 4 months.

I use no nutrients and no chemicals in my ciders. I use Cote des Blancs. It's always sulfury for a while. But I end up with zero sulfur in my finished ciders.

 

[ten80]

Agreed, I don't add nutrients and ferment cool to keep yeast activity slow, which seems to reduce yeast stress and produces cider without sulfide odors. I've had success with D47, 71B, QA23, R4600, and Cotes des Blancs yeasts.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sulfur is normal and will dissipate in time. 4 days is not very long. Try 4 weeks or better, 4 months.

I use no nutrients and no chemicals in my ciders. I use Cote des Blancs. It's always sulfury for a while. But I end up with zero sulfur in my finished ciders.

Do you bulk age for several months under an airlock? What temperature for aging? How long does it generally take for the sulfide to fully dissipate with Cote des Blancs?

ferment cool

From my reading it seemed Cote des Blancs was temperature sensitive under 55°F, which is why I've been fermenting at 56°F. It can go lower?

 

[dmtaylor]

Do you bulk age for several months under an airlock? What temperature for aging? How long does it generally take for the sulfide to fully dissipate with Cote des Blancs?

From my reading it seemed Cote des Blancs was temperature sensitive under 55°F, which is why I've been fermenting at 56°F. It can go lower?

Yes, several months under an airlock. Temperature probably isn't too critical. Mine ranges from 55-65 F depending on the weather (it sits in my cold, poorly insulated basement in Wisconsin). Sulfur should disappear in 4 weeks typically, maybe 6 weeks -- I guess I never paid it much concern to know for certain. Rest assured, it's not a problem at all.

Not sure about the lowest temperature threshold for Cote des Blancs. I'll bet the only minimum is freezing. I've definitely made good ciders with wild yeast as low as 40 F in the refrigerator, and it just keeps on chugging very slowly for months. Cote des Blancs is *probably* no different, but I'm not certain.

 

[ten80]

I've yet to find a wine yeast that won't ferment cider at temperatures around 42 F as long as the yeast gets a start a little warmer. Granted, the fermentation may take months at that temperature. My "lightly" heated garage ranges from 55 F in the fall to about 40 F in January, 50's in May, and mid-60's by August or September when I keg my finished ciders. The ciders sit on the lees in glass carboys with airlocks the whole time.

I've only had S-04 and S-33 ale yeasts create sulfur odors, probably because of their higher nutrient requirements compared to wine yeasts.

 

[RPh_Guy]

^ Sh*tty weather makes things more difficult. Garage and basement aren't stable or cool enough, respectively.

I'll try to figure out a process that works for me without tying up my fermentation fridge too long.
Might have better luck with later season batches.

Thanks everyone!

 

[RPh_Guy]

This site lists the yeast as having high nitrogen requirement, which I'm inclined to believe for my fermentation conditions based on how much nutrient I had to add to help the sulfide.
https://atpgroup.com/product/premier-cote-des-blancs/

My next batch with Cote des Blancs will get (per 1 US gallon):
Fresh juice
55°F
Thorough aeration via stirring/shaking.
1g yeast, rehydrated, tempered
1.25g GoFerm for rehydration
0.85g Fermaid O at start of fermentation
0.85g Fermaid O at the 1/3 sugar break

Adapted from the TOSNA protocol.
Hopefully this will prevent the farts.

 

[dmtaylor]

I don't drink cider while it's fermenting and stinks. I drink it after it's done and smells and tastes great. No nutrients required at all ever.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Found a good article/presentation.
https://brocku.ca/ccovi/wp-content/...ontrolling-reductive-red-wine-aroma-2010-.pdf

I racked onto sulfite and copper pipe, and aerated thoroughly for a few minutes with the drill.
The sledgehammer approach removed 100% of the sulfide aroma and taste.

 

[ten80]

Hopefully this will prevent the farts.

Keep in mind that TOSNA nutrient protocol will result in your cider fermenting out the maximum extent, i.e., an extremely dry cider, unless you halt the fermentation.

I rarely add nutrients and usually end up around 1.000 for most of my ciders using wine yeasts.

 

[RPh_Guy]

TOSNA nutrient protocol will result in your cider fermenting out the maximum extent

That is a good point, but I don't mind it dry as long as the flavor is good.

BTW, what pitching rate do you use for wine yeast?

My first batch in post 1 finished at 0.999, after pitching 2.5g dry yeast and adding 3g total nutrient (1 gal batch).

 

[ten80]

That is a good point, but I don't mind it dry as long as the flavor is good.

BTW, what pitching rate do you use for wine yeast?

My first batch in post 1 finished at 0.999, after pitching 2.5g dry yeast and adding 3g total nutrient (1 gal batch).

I have very tannic and generally acidic apples, so I've found that lower attenuation results in a more drinkable cider.

I pitch about 1 packet of dry wine yeast (5g) for 5-6 gallons of standard gravity cider. That generally results in a slow, controlled fermentation that dominates over wild yeasts. It's also super convenient to pitch a whole packet of wine yeast per carboy.

2.5g yeast in 1 gallon of cider is a HUGE pitch and 3g of nutrient is also a very large amount of nutrient according to the TOSNA 2.0 calculator. You might be able to scale back both yeast and nutrient and achieve the same result. But I don't see a need to change anything if you're happy with the result.