Another "My first cider" post - likely more problematic than most

[weejub]

OK - this is not a good way to start, but the mats are in the primary already, so we are going to ride this one out:

1 gallon of Sam's brand Apple Juice (no preservatives - ~$5 for 6 Quarts).
2 lbs of brown sugar w/ 1 qt water (boiled first)

Let brown sugar and water cool and then added 1 gallon of juice.

Initial SG was 1.23

Added 1/2 teaspoon of pectic enzyme and 1 pill of campden and let sit of for a night.

Added Safale S-04

3 days later: SG of 1.18.

Added a teaspoon of yeast nutrients and stirred everything up.

 

[sashurlow]

Whats problematic. Aside from you entering the jug after 3 days and increasing the possibility of contamination, its doing what its supposed to do. Give the yeast some time to grow and they will take off. And don't check the SG everyday.
Patience young grasshopper... Patience...

 

[weejub]

Thanks Sashurlow - - I will be - I'll start another batch w/ less sugar so I can pass the time. Sounds like I need at least two weeks before checking again?

 

[oldmate]

If you didn't see any visible signs of fermentation, opening the jug to check the gravity is perfectly acceptable. I would wait until it starts clearing up to open it back up or even think about bottling. You probably didn't need the to dissolve the sugar in the water, you might find it to be a bit watery in the end, that amount of sugar would probably have dissolved in the juice by itself. Everything else sounds fine, good luck and happy brewing!

 

[fendermallot]

2lbs of sugar in a 1 gallon batch, yikes! 1.23 sounds really high, even for that much sugar in such a small amount of juice. I'm inclined to believe your yeast will die from too much alcohol in their environment long before they ferment all of the sugars. I hope you don't want to bottle carb.

 

[weejub]

2lbs of sugar in a 1 gallon batch, yikes! 1.23 sounds really high, even for that much sugar in such a small amount of juice. I'm inclined to believe your yeast will die from too much alcohol in their environment long before they ferment all of the sugars. I hope you don't want to bottle carb.

If that happens, can I simply siphon and re-pitch or do I call it DOA and go for new - Safale isn't cheap! I'll see how she is doing next weekend and report back

Edit: When I first started, you could see the bubbles from the yeast (when I put in the nutrients) - - I don't see bubbles popping out of my airlock, though. It does smell very yeasty.

 

[weissbierdrinker]

If the yeast die from to much alcohol then adding more yeast won't help. What abv were you going for? Why so much sugar? If there has been a change in gravity then ferementation IS taking place.

 

[NiteBeest]

He said he accidentally added to much sugar. From what I've gathered though S-04 poops out around 8.5%. That means that it would finish up with a gravity around 1.17. Still super sweet. I've made a couple ciders/apple wines before that I've done 1 gal apple juice to 1 lb of sugar and had it finish dry with DV-10 around 12%. I'm thinking racking, adding another gallon or 2 of juice and some wine yeast might be your best bet.

 

[weejub]

I've heard 1.04 makes a sweet cider - more like a Woodchuck. I was going for that.

The sugar deal was really just me not thinking and trying to use up some brown sugar we had on hand.


I just started a 3 gallon batch with just a cup and a half brown sugar (less than a lb). So I will claim that as my first "real" attempt.

I don't see many/any bubbles in the high sugar gallon. I think its done - a failed experiment. I'm going to let it sit for the rest of the two weeks and then open her up and test, etc.

 

[weejub]

He said he accidentally added to much sugar. From what I've gathered though S-04 poops out around 8.5%. That means that it would finish up with a gravity around 1.17. Still super sweet. I've made a couple ciders/apple wines before that I've done 1 gal apple juice to 1 lb of sugar and had it finish dry with DV-10 around 12%. I'm thinking racking, adding another gallon or 2 of juice and some wine yeast might be your best bet.

I'll go for that if the SG is still way too high. I have wine yeast ready to go, so that may be worth while! Give me a week plus and I will report back!

Thanks for all the input everyone!!!

 

[NiteBeest]

If you start at a normal SG (1.06ish) and end around 1.01ish you'll have a sweet cider that is around 6.5%. If you start at 1.04 and end at 1.01, it should be sweet and around 4%. Last time I measured straight apple juice though it was in the 1.06 range though.

Your 3 gallons to 1 1/2 cups sugar should work out pretty well. Probably be somewhere in the 7% range if my head calculator is right.

In a week or two though after you check your original batch, I would rack it off of the yeast (try to steer away from autolysis with the dead yeast), top off to 3 gallons with more apple juice, add the wine yeast, and ferment out. With any luck that should do the trick. You might need to dilute it a little more though because you're already going to have ~8.5% from the S-04 in there. Good luck though!

 

[Insomniac]

I've used s-04 twice now, in my cyser I had to cold crash at 15% because it just kept going, and looking at how much they are loving my melon mead I think they will manage to take that pretty high too! It might be worth just letting the s-04 recover after adding more juice.

 

[NiteBeest]

Wow... 15% from S-04? I was just going by what I found searching around for data from it. Maybe it will take him as far as he needs to go without having to re-pitch a different yeast. Definately interested in what happens now.

 

[weissbierdrinker]

He could wait for it to hit his target gravity, bottle, give it some time to carbonate, then cold crash and probably still end up with a sweet cider. As long as he uses plastic bottles or swing top bottles there shouldn't be a problem with bottle bombs.

 

[weejub]

OK - I pulled the gallon of high sugar cider and checked the SG. It was somehow down to 1.04. I actually thought my hydrometer was possibly broken - but my star san mixture was right at 1.00.

The yeast were still bubbling up CO2 when I opened her up - surprised to see that. I went ahead and racked it to a glass carboy for secondary/aging and will let it sit for a while.

It tasted like an apple flavored children's benadryl - so should be interesting to see how it ages - definitely can taste the alcohol in there - the wife wasn't impressed.

I'm opening the 3 gallon batch next weekend and will be trying to save/wash that yeast.

 

[NiteBeest]

Wow... I'm surprised it got down that low. Not bad. Will probably take quite a while for all of it to age/mellow to a decent flavor. Might just want to put that it a dark corner until you remember it's there for quite some time.

Hope the wife likes the 3 gallon batch better. Give her something to drink til the other one is ready... That should keep her happy.

 

[Insomniac]

See, S-04 can do some serious fermenting!

 

[Tholan]

First time posting, sorry for any threadjacking!

I pitched Safale S-04 in my attempt at a big smoked pepper porter two days ago. The fermentation is a beast. This weekend I plan on racking it to the glass carboy for secondary. This will leave me with a good cake of S-04.

I have read of people having good success with belgiums or notty when pitching cider on the cake, but has anyone done this with a darker beer on S-04?

The wort in question was partial boil; steeped grains (bag), DME and honey (I couldn't resist the additional sugar boost, flavor be darned I am going to smoother the porter with the pepper anyhow). Hops were bagged since with no chiller I wanted more control on the timing. Benefit here is trub should be cleaner. (Will bag peppers in secondary to taste, but that's not important to the discussion at hand.)

For the cider it will be the best value store bought juice I can find without preservatives. Looking to do 5 gallons and have it in my HDPE primary until the glass secondary is available for racking.

I am conspicuously lazy so no washing will be done unless I am given compelling reasons to attempt it. My sense is that it is a fantastic way to introduce fatal error in my household.

My concerns are more general in terms of any particular needs the S-04 may have when pitching the apple juice ontop. If nutrient how much, any suggestions on brand? If other additives like pectin are still adviseable? What suggestions might be had (I see brown sugar and boiled water) for boosting OG and improving flavor. What flavors I might find based on the yeast cake, etc.

Thanks in advance.

- Tholan

 

[weejub]

Tholan - Looking forward to hearing how this goes! I have read a couple posts were this has worked fine, btw.

 

[Tholan]

Racked the porter off the yeast today.
Washed the yeast (I think I did anyway).

Decided to do a Graff instead of a straight cider.

1/2 lb L120 (although Corey wrote 1/4 lb on the bag?)
1 oz flaked wheat
Steeped 45 minutes in 0.75 gallon Spring water
Sparged with remainder of gallon
2 lbs Briess Golden Light DME
2 lbs Dark Brown Sugar
Boil
1oz Crystal Hops (3.1 AA)
30 minutes

Repitched the yeast into the cleaned empty carboy, added 4 gallons of white house apple juice.

Added chilled wort to carboy. OG of 1.072

We shall see if this thing kicks up tonight or tomorrow.

 

[weejub]

Tholan - I'd like to try that when its done!

I moved my 3 gallons of regular cider to secondary. SG was right at 1.02. It actually tasted drinkable after just 2 weeks!

Looking forward to bottling and enjoying it!

Went ahead and made a 1.5 gallon batch with 3/4 cup of plain white sugar.

I'm going to re-use my 3 gallon yeast - washing it now. I will do it next weekend or later this week

 

[Tholan]

I fear the washing because I don't want to introduce anything. I am constantly washing with Idophor it seems. The LHBS set me up with C-Brite and Idophor. I think I will switch to StarSans since that sounds likie the prefered cleaner here. I am a fan of the wisdom of crowds.

 

[weejub]

UPDATE:

Both the wine and the hard cider are in bottles now. Final SG ended as follows:

Wine: just below 1.03
Cider: just below 1.02

I actually back sweetened the 3 gallons of cider with a can of apple juice concentrate.

All the bottles will sit for a week for carbonization and then I will run through the dishwasher on sanitize.

The wine will sit indefinitely.

The cider will be consumed as needed.

I have another three gallons with a cup of white sugar in it in the primary ready for more yeast today

 

[Tholan]

Ok. After a month on the yeast I transferred to secondary lastnight and added Oak chips. Gravity is now at 1.014. Down from an OG of 1.072.

Smell is alcoholic. Taste is surprisingly good, but not really apple. Its going to stay in my secondary for a long time to mellow. I think I will move to bottle it first week of October before my next baby is born.