Another "foam" thread....

[AnotherKiwiBrewer]

Hi all -

based on the success of one of my first threads on this fine forum, I need the crowd's expertise again...

First off, I have spent a bit of time reading and searching, i'm a n00b to this forum but not forums in general and know the etiquette That doesn't mean i didn't miss something staring me in the virtual face!

I have foam, foam and more foam out of my kegerator build.

Upright fridge, various line lengths (all 6mm or 1/4" ID) 3 kegs and three intertap flow control taps. 2 different beers and a cider. For testing all kegs are at 36deg and 10 psi.

What i have tried:
- Dropping a keg to 5psi - about the minimum where it would flow thru to the tap! FOAM.
- Changing a FC tap to normal one - FOAM
- Swapping all three beer lines around to prove that it's not one in particular. long or short, they all produce FOAM.One of the lines i changed to be 16 feet long as a test - still foam.

I notice that there seems to be bubble in the beer line from near the keg all the way to the taps. I can run many pints out and the bubbles are still there, so my current theory is that air is gettign in somewhere at the start of the line or the keg is overcarbed.

Given that i have swapped around 3 beer lines i think it's unlikley all three have air leaks at the keg coupler or line or somethign on the keg itself.

So - on the overcarbed theory i released all pressure from one of the kegs, will let it sit a few hours and then only put 1 or 2 psi on and see what happens. is this a valid test?

Also to eliminate any issue with the taps or lines, i tried a 7 foot line with picnic tap - foam.

Surely this means it has to be the keg or the beer? And all three kegs seems unlikely...

Ideas welcome - i want to drink beer, not foam!

 

[day_trippr]

If all of this is happening with a single Cornelius style keg I would suspect the small o-ring under the long dip tube flange is missing or damaged. Or the keg is crazy over-carbed...

Cheers!

 

[AnotherKiwiBrewer]

If all of this is happening with a single Cornelius style keg I would suspect the small o-ring under the long dip tube flange is missing or damaged. Or the keg is crazy over-carbed...

Cheers!

No, 3 different kegs unfortunately! They are all new and bought at the same time so ill look at the rings just in case.

All i can come up with is overcarbed, and I’m new to kegging so still learning about force carbing and serving pressures-taking one keg down to zero and slowly bringing it up should prove or disprove overcarbing right?

It’s been depressurised (but sealed) simce last night so that is tonight’s test - if i get bubbles out of that with just 1-2 psi or whatever it takes to just pour then it must be equipment related.

 

[AnotherKiwiBrewer]

Just thought of another factor common to all three kegs - can gelatine claryfying cause foam if i have somehow done it wrong?

 

[TechFanMD]

How did you do your gelatin fining. I actually cannot imagine why, even if you used 3x the normal amount how gelatin would cause foam.

Too bad there isn't something you could use as a line balancing fluid (something else to put in a keg) that isn't beer to dial in the process without wasting precious homebrew.

 

[Piperlester]

I've never had an issue with excess foam, but there could be a few things.

-Is the beer warm (basic, but hey, let's start at square 1)?
-Are your glasses clean?
-Are you glasses warm or cold?
-Are you using ANY of the same components (same quick disconnect, by chance)?
-Is the beer coming out of the tap as foam, or foaming once it is in the glass?

 

[AnotherKiwiBrewer]

How did you do your gelatin fining. I actually cannot imagine why, even if you used 3x the normal amount how gelatin would cause foam.

I use what seems to be fairly standard - a tsp of gelatine in a cup of water, heat to 65C to dissolve. I just thought of it because it's common to all three kegs...

Too bad there isn't something you could use as a line balancing fluid (something else to put in a keg) that isn't beer to dial in the process without wasting precious homebrew.

I wonder if carbed water would work.... it won't foam like beer but i am convinced the issue is that i can see bubbles in the line right from the keg, they must be coming from inside the keg or a couple/line/joint/oring seal. But the same on all three kegs??? they were purchaed at the same time, new so i guess it's possible.

I've never had an issue with excess foam, but there could be a few things.

-Is the beer warm (basic, but hey, let's start at square 1)?
-Are your glasses clean?
-Are you glasses warm or cold?
-Are you using ANY of the same components (same quick disconnect, by chance)?
-Is the beer coming out of the tap as foam, or foaming once it is in the glass?

Beer at about 36degF
Many different glasses, clean, dry, wet. I can see bubbles in the line and fom out of the tap as opposed to beer hitting the glass and foaming
glasses have been room temp and tried one fro the fridge
Have swapped the three sets of gas and beer lines around enough to be confident in saying this is originating at the keg...which is why i'm head scratching as to what could be common to all three kegs. That's why i'm thinking of overcarbed or gelatin.

Last night i proved that i still get foam after releaseing all pressure on one keg for about 24h then putting 1-2 psi, just enough to move beer to the tap - still foam and still bubbles showing in the line.

i think i will look at picing up some orings today and changing on one keg tonight - maybe all three kegs are from a bad batch? Seems unlikely but hey....

 

[theQ]

Try a picnic tap, see if you have the same issue. I notice that my picnic tap pours way better.

Do you dry hope in the keg ? Any thing that gets in the way could lead to foaming.

 

[Piperlester]

Try a picnic tap, see if you have the same issue. I notice that my picnic tap pours way better.

Do you dry hope in the keg ? Any thing that gets in the way could lead to foaming.

He mentioned trying a picnic tap.

Can you give us more information on how you force carb'd? Even with releasing all the pressure down to 1 or 2 PSI, you could still be way over carbonated. A spunding valve would help you fix over carbonation (which, from the sounds of things is likely the issue). Another way is vent until there's not much left, leave it for a day, then vent again. It's possible you have so much carbonation that even letting it sit after venting, you aren't able to get down low enough (i.e. 50psi in the beer, venting headspace down to 2psi, will result in your headspace quickly pressuring back up to equilibrium and your beer not dropping much carbonation). A spunding valve helps, as it is set to a specific pressure and anything above that is allowed to release. It just takes time either way.

 

[Busted Eye Brewing]

What is the temp inside your kegerator and what is the temp outside your kegerator? I had this problem and fixed it.
I was constantly getting tons of foam but not from overcarbonation. My keezer is in a hot garage. I had the temp set to 34 and no circulating fan. So my hot garage kept my taps and shanks warm. When the cold beer traveled through them I got foam. What I did was increase the internal temp to 38 and added a fan that pulls air from the bottom and blows it at my shanks. No more overly foamy beer.

 

[VVbrewery]

Just thought of another factor common to all three kegs - can gelatine claryfying cause foam if i have somehow done it wrong?

The first time I used gelatin for some reason I used an entire packet or about 10 times the amount I should have and I didn't notice any problem with foaming.

 

[Piperlester]

The first time I used gelatin for some reason I used an entire packet or about 10 times the amount I should have and I didn't notice any problem with foaming.

Beer flavored Jell-O?

 

[Yooper]

Are you using 1/4" ID tubing? If so, that's the cause of the foaming. You need about 10 feet of 3/16" ID beverage tubing.

 

[AnotherKiwiBrewer]

...Can you give us more information on how you force carb'd? Even with releasing all the pressure down to 1 or 2 PSI, you could still be way over carbonated....

Thanks, this was the direction i was taking - i depressurised for a day and checked, there was only 1 psi or so back in the headspace after 24 hours - i even thoguht to shake the keg a little and then released the additional couple of psi. Bit of a bummer as i was convinced it had to be the beer itself given all the equipment swaps and confirmation i have done, which leaves either the beer itself or all three kegs with the same air leak somewhere.

... So my hot garage kept my taps and shanks warm. When the cold beer traveled through them I got foam....

I did read about this as a cause of foaming, thanks for bringing it back to mind... the garage is not too different to the keezer temp at the moment - maybe at worst 30degF. I have the taps on the front of the door of an upright fridge, so the shanks are in the fridge space, only the taps are external i.e. not a tower type arrangment. From my reading it seems this setup should be way more immue to the cold beer --> hot taps foaming?
Hey i can chill a tap and see what happens...

Are you using 1/4" ID tubing? If so, that's the cause of the foaming. You need about 10 feet of 3/16" ID beverage tubing.

I do have 1/4" tubing, but isn't it a combination of the ID and the length to give a pressure drop that is important? Otherwise why do they sell 1/4 ID beer line...
So on that note i originally had only a few feet of line, on one tap i have since changed that to 16 feet (the length it came in as a bundle). Still damn foam! the flow is much reduced as expected - even with the flow control tap wide open.


The main thing my mind keeps coming back to is that i see bubbles in the line, seemingly right from the keg. Thats why i thought overcarbing but that didn't pan out.
I'm going to try changing the liquid post o-rings today.

By the way, thanks guys for all the ideas!

 

[Busted Eye Brewing]

Thanks, this was the direction i was taking - i depressurised for a day and checked, there was only 1 psi or so back in the headspace after 24 hours - i even thoguht to shake the keg a little and then released the additional couple of psi. Bit of a bummer as i was convinced it had to be the beer itself given all the equipment swaps and confirmation i have done, which leaves either the beer itself or all three kegs with the same air leak somewhere.



I did read about this as a cause of foaming, thanks for bringing it back to mind... the garage is not too different to the keezer temp at the moment - maybe at worst 30degF. I have the taps on the front of the door of an upright fridge, so the shanks are in the fridge space, only the taps are external i.e. not a tower type arrangment. From my reading it seems this setup should be way more immue to the cold beer --> hot taps foaming?
Hey i can chill a tap and see what happens...


I do have 1/4" tubing, but isn't it a combination of the ID and the length to give a pressure drop that is important? Otherwise why do they sell 1/4 ID beer line...
So on that note i originally had only a few feet of line, on one tap i have since changed that to 16 feet (the length it came in as a bundle). Still damn foam! the flow is much reduced as expected.


The main thing my mind keeps coming back to is that i see bubbles in the line, seemingly right from the keg. Thats why i thought overcarbing but that didn't pan out.
I'm going to try changing the liquid post o-rings today.

By the way, thanks guys for all the ideas![/QUOTE

My shanks are inside also. Feel your taps. Are they cool to the touch?

 

[AnotherKiwiBrewer]

My shanks are inside also. Feel your taps. Are they cool to the touch?

Yeah - with one hand on shank (fridge door open) and one on tap i can't feel a difference - it's cold in the garage right now, and I just poured a pint glass and ended up with 3/4 of the glass being foam.

 

[Busted Eye Brewing]

How do you carb your keg? And it can take a long time to recover from an over carb.

 

[bleme]

The main thing my mind keeps coming back to is that i see bubbles in the line, seemingly right from the keg. Thats why i thought overcarbing but that didn't pan out.
I'm going to try changing the liquid post o-rings today.

And keg-lube that ring like you're taking it to the prom. If gas can get through there, it would rather escape there than go through all the work of pushing beer down and out. It meets up with the beer traveling through and foams like crazy, essentially creating an in-line carbonator.

 

[AnotherKiwiBrewer]

How do you carb your keg? And it can take a long time to recover from an over carb.

sorry - i didnt reply to your question on this earlier!

I pressureized to 30psi and shook the keg like crazy till it stopped accepting gas. Left it overnight and set pressure to 11psi for serving - it had dropped to below that.

That was 2 weeks ago, no pressure changes since apart from one of them being depressuirzed as i describe above

 

[AnotherKiwiBrewer]

And keg-lube that ring like you're taking it to the prom......

errr.....i'll buy it dinner first ....

Have keg lube, so will do so! This is where i'm thinking it must be happenning, at the post ring or the dip tube ring. If not, i'm going to tear my remaining hair out.
And if it IS this, it has to be all 3 kegs too - admittedly they were all bought at the same time so are likely the same batch, or maybe the LHBS takes them apart for inspection or something and i got three that were not reassembled properly... will see.

 

[Busted Eye Brewing]

The only other thing would be to switch to 3/16 inner diameter hose

 

[Yooper]

1/4" tubing is meant for LONG runs- like at a bar where the line run may be 25 feet or more.

Try this beer line length calculator and see what is recommended for your system: http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

I did an example calculation with 10 psi and .25" ID tubing. It says you need like 32 feet of line! But with 3/16" tubing and 10 psi, you'd need 8.33 feet. THAT's the difference between 1/4" and 3/16" tubing!

My little rule of thumb at home is at 40 degrees, I use one foot of 3/16" beer line for each psi on the regulator. So for my 12 psi, I have 12 feet of line. If I was doing a higher carbed beer, like a spritzy saison, I'd use 18 feet for 18 psi, as an example. But since I generally like the carb level I have at 12 psi for almost all of my beers, I usually just have my lines all 12 feet long.

 

[Busted Eye Brewing]

errr.....i'll buy it dinner first ....

Have keg lube, so will do so! This is where i'm thinking it must be happenning, at the post ring or the dip tube ring. If not, i'm going to tear my remaining hair out.
And if it IS this, it has to be all 3 kegs too - admittedly they were all bought at the same time so are likely the same batch, or maybe the LHBS takes them apart for inspection or something and i got three that were not reassembled properly... will see.

I doubt it

 

[Busted Eye Brewing]

Changing your tubing on one and see. I bet you'll be surprised

 

[Pkrd]

I'm guessing a combo of overcarbed and too large line diameter.
You won't depressurise the beer from 30psi to 10 overnight just by pulling the relief valve.

Heres some cheap 5mm line.
https://www.bunnings.co.nz/pope-clear-vinyl-tubing-5mmx10-0m_p00235197

 

[day_trippr]

If the beer was cold at the time, shaking at 30 psi 'til the keg stopped accepting gas would be in the epically overcarbed domain...

Cheers!

 

[AnotherKiwiBrewer]

There's nothing more useless than an un-concluded thread, so i'm posting the final fix!

I'm happy to say, that all three kegs must have been overcarbed. Changing nothing except moving on to the next brew, I got perfectly fine pours with the difference being nothing int he setup or kegs or anything, EXCEPT i carb'd these three kegs with the set and forget method i.e. set to the serving pressue (11 psi in this case) and left it alone.

It seems having the keg cold (i.e. cold crashing temp) and trying the fast carb method was a bad idea, i'll just go with set and forget from now on!

Thanks all for the input