Another bad brew job, think I've learned my lesson...

[kenmcchord]

Apparently I have to learn all my lessons the hard way...

Recently I brewed a double IPA on my new electric brewery, a system that outputs 10-12 gallon batches. I used the yeast calculator over at Brewers Friend to work up the appropriate starter for this batch, and I selected Wyeast London Fog #1028 for this brew. Following the calculator I ended up doing a 1.040 1.6L starter followed by a 1.040 4L starter. All things being equal that should have gotten me the yeast I needed for this expected brew. I was wrong.

Estimated OG was 1.078, my OG came in at 1.086. Since this was the first brew from my system I estimated my BH efficiency a bit lower expecting that I would have to learn as I go, obviously wrong again.

Into the fermenter (I'm splitting these between two brew buckets) I split the yeast in the 5L flask by discarding the spent starter wort and pouring in wort from the brew. I then mix vigorously and pour equal amounts between the two brew buckets. Both brew buckets started fermenting showing fairly vigorous activity within 6 hours. After day 3 I dry hopped, added my cold crash guardian and we were back to the races. Fermentation was apparent for at least 6, maybe 7 days. I kegged after 21 days.

There's a bit more to say but it was my standard fermentation schedule, I ramp up the temp, check the gravity along the way and hope for the best. This time my FG came in at 1.028 for one brew bucket, 1.026 in the other. I have some travel plans that take me out of town this week so even though I thought about throwing in some Safale US-05 in each but I opted to keg it up where they were at. Stupid mistake #3.

Way too sweet, and I think I've finally learned my lesson. Seems this year and last I've been routinely under pitching my yeast. I've had so many brews that seem to come in a few points higher than my expected FG; not all but more than a few. I brewed a pumpkin kolsch last fall, big OG (1.085 ballpark) and that one finished in the 1.020's as well. So the bottom line here is that even though I am using starters with my liquid yeast I need to be more diligent in ensuring I have enough yeast for my brew. I'm guessing it won't hurt to have 25% to 30% more yeast than the calculator calls for so I'll shoot to be better with my yeast prep.

And finally, I'm going to start trying out dry yeast. I've done one brew with dry, that worked out just fine. Thanks for letting me vent, kind of pissed off I have to dump 10 gallons of homebrew.

 

[Golddiggie]

How do you oxygenate your wort?
Also a 1.6L starter for a 10+ gallon batch, even on a stirplate seems way too small to me. Especially with the OG expected (never mind hit). Even with extremely fresh years that seems small. IF it was correct, but you didn't use pure 02 to oxygenate your wort, that could be the source of the issue right there. I use pure 02 to oxygenate (have for years) but I also add a bit of yeast nutrient into every batch (towards the end of the boil). Only time I've missed my FG by more than a point, or two, of SG was due to higher mash temperatures. Even then, it came damned close (closer than you mention at least).

What brew system are you using now?

 

[Snuffy]

I wouldn’t dump a batch of brew until I tried every possible way not to. I would transfer back to fermenter nice and easy and then pitch that dry US-05 and let it ride. If your residual sugar is fermentable it will get to your expected FG eventually. You could lose some hop impact but that isn’t a big deal at this point compared to losing it all.

 

[kenmcchord]

How do you oxygenate your wort?
Also a 1.6L starter for a 10+ gallon batch, even on a stirplate seems way too small to me. Especially with the OG expected (never mind hit). Even with extremely fresh years that seems small. IF it was correct, but you didn't use pure 02 to oxygenate your wort, that could be the source of the issue right there. I use pure 02 to oxygenate (have for years) but I also add a bit of yeast nutrient into every batch (towards the end of the boil). Only time I've missed my FG by more than a point, or two, of SG was due to higher mash temperatures. Even then, it came damned close (closer than you mention at least).

What brew system are you using now?

Maybe I worded it weird but I did a two step starter. 1.6L for the first, decanted then did a 4L starter. Both starters performed as expected. Oxygenated with O2 and a blichmann regulator and a wand, about 1-2 mins per bucket.

They'll sit in my kegerator until I get back in a few weeks, might not be so offensive once they're carbonated. This wouldn't be the first keg I drank that was less than stellar, but yesterday's sip was very sweet.

The brew system is a Kal clone, 20 gal Blichmann boil kettle and HLT, 30 gal Blichmann mash tun. Got a 15 gal Blichmann that I am converting into a mash tun for low gravity brews. I'm attaching a picture.

Again I was mostly venting, it's obvious there is so much more for me to master in this hobby before I can consider myself a competent brewer.

 

[Golddiggie]

Is the Blichmann regulator the one with the L/min or the dumb one?
I'm going to be using the SSBrewTech infusion setup at the wort out side of my plate chiller starting the coming batch. That way I don't need to use the wand (anymore) and have the fermenter top open while infusing with O2.

I figure I'll know, within a few batches, if I need to side my MT to something larger. Right now I have all 15 gallon Spike kettles. Trying to do a 12 gallon batch of my IPA was 'intereting' for the sparge. Although I don't plan to do any 12 gallon batches for some time to come. By the time I want to go above the capacity of my CF10's, I'll probably be getting a 1bbl setup (or larger).

IME, larger beers benefit from adding nutrient to the boil. To the level that I had a wee heavy (using Wyeast 1728) go to 12.5% ABV while fermenting in the lower half of the temperature range. That was also with a pure O2 infusion (with the L/min regulator setup).

 

[kenmcchord]

I think the Blichmann is the L/min but it's hard to remember what the scale was. I put it on the "1" setting and let 'er rip for a minute or two.

 

[madscientist451]

I think you're a little quick to blame the yeast. If fermentable sugars are there, the yeast want to consume it.
What was the mash temp? Are you doing some kind of recirculation during the mash? Any chance your mash temp was higher than you wanted?
Also, how much dry hops? I've heard lots of hops can have an effect on yeast. What was the gravity on day 3 when you added the dry hops? Your OG was higher than expected, perhaps you should have waited?
You can do a test: Get a gallon jug and (carefully) pour in about 3.5 quarts of your beer, take a gravity reading and toss in the US 05.
If the original yeast quit early, the US 05 will start working, if you have an unfermentable wort because of mash temp or some other reason, not much will happen.

 

[IslandLizard]

I think the Blichmann is the L/min but it's hard to remember what the scale was. I put it on the "1" setting and let 'er rip for a minute or two.

That O2 reg looks very similar to mine (which is green), and the numbers are usually liters per minute or fractions thereof.
Mine starts at 1/32 l/m going all the way up to 4 l/m.

Your oxygenation may have been a bit skimpy.

According to what I've read, a flow rate of 1 l/m for 1 minute should yield around 12 ppm DO, plenty for gravities up to 1.060 and a bit higher even. But... IMO, a lot of detail is missing.

Using a "0.5 micron" stone on a wand at the bottom of a 6.5 gallon brew bucket, at 1 l/m, I noticed quite a lot of bubbling on the surface, which IMO is O2 that has not been dissolved and is lost to the atmosphere. I've been running 4 minutes at 1/4 l/m, yielding a slight surface rippling. Chances are using the lower rate for longer, more O2 gets dissolved on the way up. Never measured, but the results have been excellent. I often have lift off within 3-6 hours.

I also move the wand around every 30-60 seconds or so to a different spot, around the bottom, for possibly better/more thorough oxygenation.

I sometimes run 8 minutes at 1/8 l/m, but it seems almost eternity, although longer and slower could possibly result in a somewhat even higher DO at the same overall dosage (1 liter of O2).

For high gravity worts (say 1.080-1.090 and up) you may want a bit more than 12 ppm, but it's better to oxygenate those for a 2nd time, a few hours after the first and pitching. Yet, the 2nd one has to be done (ideally) before active fermentation starts (alcohol and CO2 being formed). A 2nd oxygenation, 12-18 hours after the first one and the pitch, is often recommended. But even in high gravity (1.090) beer I've had lift offs after 6-8 hours (big healthy pitches), so... try to gauge it for the 2nd wave.

 

[Gusso]

I took a hiatus from brewing for 6-7 years. Since my return, I've been using dry yeast 90% of the time. Never have a problem reaching FG. I usually go lower. Consider Kveik, that stuff is awesome IMO.

 

[bkboiler]

Definitely don't dump. I screwed up a still yet unknown aspect of my most recent double brew day...
Had two sweet /twangy beers. I didn't dump them. I brought the kegs up to temp, swirled them and did a d-rest for a week at around 70F (or warmer). Then they've been "cold conditioning" in the keezer since then. Getting better each day.

 

[bracconiere]

Maybe I worded it weird but I did a two step starter. 1.6L for the first, decanted then did a 4L starter. Both starters performed as expected. Oxygenated with O2 and a blichmann regulator and a wand, about 1-2 mins per bucket.

They'll sit in my kegerator until I get back in a few weeks, might not be so offensive once they're carbonated. This wouldn't be the first keg I drank that was less than stellar, but yesterday's sip was very sweet.

The brew system is a Kal clone, 20 gal Blichmann boil kettle and HLT, 30 gal Blichmann mash tun. Got a 15 gal Blichmann that I am converting into a mash tun for low gravity brews. I'm attaching a picture.

Again I was mostly venting, it's obvious there is so much more for me to master in this hobby before I can consider myself a competent brewer.
View attachment 730100

LOL, dude that looks like glam metal! this is what a "REAL" man's brew rig looks like, i don't have any problems!

 

[hottpeper13]

Have you considered that you are decanting the yeast cells that do the finish work?. I don't decant unless it's clear enough for me to see my fingers thru the 800 ml mark. Also yeast's oxygen uptake is immediate,so I pitch then oxygenate.
Most important tip,is, Make a small beer you can drink as a starter then pitch what you need from that cake.

 

[1bottlerocket]

What temperature was your mash?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I think you're a little quick to blame the yeast. If fermentable sugars are there, the yeast want to consume it.

This is my thought as well. The yeast game seemed fine and "vigorous activity within 6 hours" does not point at a massive underpitch. Though I have never used London Fog myself, so I would not know what to expect for attenuation.

 

[1bottlerocket]

I've pitched London Fog before and it does leave some residual sugars but I've never had any cloying sweetness.

 

[AlexKay]

Maybe fix this on the recipe side? Bigger beers need better bittering. What’s your IBU:GU ratio?

 

[kenmcchord]

Sorry for the delay in replies, been a busy couple of days.

@IslandLizard O2, that's always a hard to know how much I'm getting into the brew. I have been following the advice from Kal at the electricbrewery.com but perhaps I'll start lowering the l/min setting and do this for a bit longer. To be honest my thoughts are that O2 was not a factor, I had vigorous fermentation after 6 hours or so which implied that low O2 wasn't a factor. Plus, it's not like I didn't oxygenate the wort, but maybe I can do better there. And with an OG of 1.086 maybe I should have done a second O2 application after 12 hours, I'll be sure to do that next time I have an OG above 1.080.
edit: After re-reading my reply perhaps the need for a second O2 application could have helped the yeast fully attenuate and certainly could have been a contributing factor for a stalled fermentation.

Mash temp was 153° spot on. I have a HERMS system, and I double checked the actual temp of the mash during the long recirculation mash with my uber expensive Thermapen Mk4. It was spot on. Let me add that I have taken a deep dive into water treatment this past year and I had my water additions dialed in nicely for the style. Mash pH was 5.44 @ 70°f and I even acidified the sparge water to be sure to not allow the runnings to rise too high. Again I ended up with a pre-boil gravity 1.070 which was about .04 higher that expected. 90 minute boil with plenty of Warrior hops for bittering and Cascade /Chinook/Simcoe towards the end. I did a quick steep at 180° with those Simcoe, chilled with my counterflow chiller and into the brew buckets. Again, the OG was 1.086 with the expectation target of 1.078. Don't know what could have prevented the yeast from finishing the job, but in hindsight I wish I had pitched some US-05 either at dry hopping (which happened day 3 during high krausen) or when the fermentation stalled at 1.028. Just to be clear, this is the first brew with my electric system that I've been piecing together for more than a few years and I knew some of my numbers would be off. I am taking copious notes where I'm outlining adjustments that I need to make in my recipes and efficiencies.

@bracconiere Sweet set-up bro, I was glad to hear from you in this. Yeah, I got too much bling for my dumb ass, but I'm hoping I can learn enough to actually put this stuff to good use!

Re: decanting yeast. It's always possible there are yeast cells floating around in the wort in the flask but that flask sat in the refrigerator for more than a few days and the separation was quite clear. That just seems to fly in the face of so many others who routinely decant. However...it does stand to reason that perhaps I did lose a few cells in a situation where I may have been a little light in my pitch to begin with. Let me explain my point...

Again I am creating a starter based on a package of yeast that has some variable of dead cells to begin with due to packaging/travel/time on the shelves, whatever. Then I build this starter(s), based on at best a "guesstimation" of viable cells in the packaging, to a point where I have "enough" for my expected OG brew. Then, as @hottpeper13 points out, I may be dumping some of the cells that actually would be needed to finish off the fermentation, thereby decreasing my cell count further. To top things off my OG comes in .008 points higher than the expected OG that I based my starter calculations off of, even further putting my cell count below the required amount. And that was my point all along. I don't think I did much wrong here, but clearly the yeast gave up the ghost before the job was done and I'm just trying to work out where that could have happened, or rather how to ensure I have BOTH vigorous AND complete fermentation.

The yeast in question was London Ale Wyeast 1028. That yeast has an expected attenuation of 73-77 in a temperature range of 60°-72°. I fermented at 67° and reached an attenuation level of 67.4%. [(86-28)/86 = .674]. Clearly the yeast worked as hard as it could, all I am simply thinking is that I under pitched.

Thanks for all the replies. One day, along with realizing world peace and dogs and cats living openly together in a field of flowers, I may be able to brew a beer without problems.

 

[kenmcchord]

Maybe fix this on the recipe side? Bigger beers need better bittering. What’s your IBU:GU ratio?

I don't know how to cypher that ratio. But that said the IBUs were 90 and I had 36 lbs of grain (32-2 row, 4-victory).

 

[kenmcchord]

Definitely don't dump. I screwed up a still yet unknown aspect of my most recent double brew day...
Had two sweet /twangy beers. I didn't dump them. I brought the kegs up to temp, swirled them and did a d-rest for a week at around 70F (or warmer). Then they've been "cold conditioning" in the keezer since then. Getting better each day.

Yeah, agreed. Not dumping...like I said I was venting at first. This hobby can be vexing at time

And I will say I have drank worse homebrews before. Cheers!

 

[kenmcchord]

What temperature was your mash?

153°, spot on.

 

[apache_brew]

FWIW, I like to default to 3 step starters for my 10-14 gallon batches (ales or lagers). Basically just start that process 7 days before brew day. Using the same calculator, this puts me well over the required pitch rate, and then allows me to harvest vials from the starter for future batches. I don't have much experience with London Fog (aside from the Verdant strain), but I mostly brew IPA's (Chico strain) and lagers (German) and tend to keep the target mash temperature at 150 for both. On the oxygenation side, I have the same tank regulator combo as you, but instead use an inline stone on the discharge hose and oxygenate while pumping into the fermentation vessel at around 2l/minute for the duration of the transfer. Maybe tweak some of these variables, but for sure recalibrate your system efficiencies. Brew on.

 

[AlexKay]

I don't know how to cypher that ratio. But that said the IBUs were 90 and I had 36 lbs of grain (32-2 row, 4-victory).

90?

I’m really surprised you can taste sweetness at all underneath 90 IBU. I’m not trying to talk down, but ... are you sure? What hops did you use and when?

(I’m probably way off base here, but this doesn’t sound like a problem that would be fixed by 5-10% more attenuation.)

 

[kenmcchord]

90?

I’m really surprised you can taste sweetness at all underneath 90 IBU. I’m not trying to talk down, but ... are you sure? What hops did you use and when?

(I’m probably way off base here, but this doesn’t sound like a problem that would be fixed by 5-10% more attenuation.)

Yeah, agreed with all. That said 1.028 was a fairly high FG and I could for sure taste that. The samples I had were uncarbonated (2 days after kegging) and again we’re def sweet. Again not the worst “bad brew” I’ve had but not what I was shooting for.

Heading out of town for Philly today, hoping when I get back this becomes my néw favorite mistake!

 

[kenmcchord]

90?

I’m really surprised you can taste sweetness at all underneath 90 IBU. I’m not trying to talk down, but ... are you sure? What hops did you use and when?

(I’m probably way off base here, but this doesn’t sound like a problem that would be fixed by 5-10% more attenuation.)

Forgot to talk about the hops…

warrior 1.5 oz at 18%aa for 90 min, 38.5 IBUs
Warrior 1.5 for 60 min, 36.4 IBUs
Cascade 1.43 oz at 5.5 aa for 12 min, 4.2 IBUs
Chinook 1.43 oz at 13 aa for 12 min, 10 IBUs

simcoe 2.8 oz whirlpool/steep at 180*

ctz 6.8 oz dry hopped
Simcoe 3.3 oz dry hopped
Chinook 1.6 oz dry hopped all day three fermentation until keg

Edit: adding IBUs, correcting errors; typing on my iPhone = mistakes

 

[kenmcchord]

FWIW, I like to default to 3 step starters for my 10-14 gallon batches (ales or lagers). Basically just start that process 7 days before brew day. Using the same calculator, this puts me well over the required pitch rate, and then allows me to harvest vials from the starter for future batches. I don't have much experience with London Fog (aside from the Verdant strain), but I mostly brew IPA's (Chico strain) and lagers (German) and tend to keep the target mash temperature at 150 for both. On the oxygenation side, I have the same tank regulator combo as you, but instead use an inline stone on the discharge hose and oxygenate while pumping into the fermentation vessel at around 2l/minute for the duration of the transfer. Maybe tweak some of these variables, but for sure recalibrate your system efficiencies. Brew on.

I like the idea of an inline O2 stone, that would certainly help automate part of the process. Any trouble sanitizing the stone or getting it clean? I may have to look for something like this at brewhardware

 

[1bottlerocket]

The attenuation was low, I agree, according the WLP table. I was looking over some of John Palmer's books and, according to him, the mash temperature (153°F) was on the low side of the high range and will yield lower attenuated beers. Palmer is saying to mash at 144-149 to get more attenuation from your yeast, or use a two step mash. Saying that, we mashed at 154°F (68°C) and the last DIPA we made went dryer than we had hoped. We pitched 3 packets of Lallemand Verdant IPA yeast.

The other area I would look is pitch rate. I hope that helps!

 

[apache_brew]

I like the idea of an inline O2 stone, that would certainly help automate part of the process. Any trouble sanitizing the stone or getting it clean? I may have to look for something like this at brewhardware

The stone I have has 1/2 npt male threads that screw into my camlock adapter. I break it down after each use and rinse. Before every brew day I boil it on the stove for 15 minutes and then thread it into my assembly, spray with starsan and store in a new ziplock bag until I'm ready for knockout.

This is the same one Stainless Oxygen (O2) .5 Micron Diffusion Stone with 1/2'' NPT threads

 

[superiorsat]

Pull the kegs out and bring back up to 68 degrees and put in some Lalvin EC-1118 Dry wine yeast will do the trick even if you accidently had higher mash temps than you thought or US-05 will also work assuming your 153 mash temp was accurate. I wouldn't even try to transfer back into a fermenter. Leave the kegs for at least another week and just burp the relief valve daily. When fermentation is done, re-cold crash and the little bit of yeast will come out in the first pint or 2. Years ago I made the mistake of not calibrating new equipment and had a run of high FG batches then it dawned on me that I might have been mashing in the high 158ish range. That's where the wine yeast really helped. If you had a stout or something I might recommend a coffee addition, or oak tea. Since you have an DIPA your only real options are to finish it out or a strong hop tea to offset the sweetness.

 

[SFC Rudy]

For the most part, liquid yeast is over rated.