Amber extract question

[SchlazzGraft]

I'm planning on making an ESB in a couple of weeks, and I picked out some ingredients for it. I meant to order dry light extract, but somehow I ended up clicking amber instead.

I figure using all amber should turn out ok, but I'm concerned that it may be too malty. Would an all-amber recipe be overkill for this type of beer? Should I get rid of the crystal malts if I decide to go with all amber? Any other advice on the recipe would be greatly appreciated!

My first ESB:

Weight (lbs) Grain/Extract
0.5 Simpsons medium crystal
0.25 Belgian Biscuit
0.25 Cara-Pils
3.0 Dry Amber Extract (Muntons)
3.15 Liquid amber Extract (NB)

Weight (oz) Hops
1.0 Northern Brewer (60 min)
1.0 EKG (15 min)
1.0 Styrian Goldings (0 min)

 

[JonK331]

It's really hard, if not impossible to tell what the amber extract has in it but yeah I'd consider removing the simpsons meduim crystal. Also remember that Carapils is technically a crystal malt as well.

 

[SchlazzGraft]

Thanks for the advice, I might end up picking up some dry light and just saving the amber for another time... I'm sure this won't be my last batch!

Another question... I'm thinking the whole ounce of norther brewer hops for bittering might be too much, does anyone have much experience with these? Should I do half an ounce for 60 min and the other half with the rest of the flavor hops? I believe that the ones I have are about 9.5% AA

 

[dcp27]

IIRC, briess amber extract is around 5% munich and 5% C60 with the rest being base malt, so I'd guess others are similar. If that's the case, it puts you around 0.5lb crystal from the extract, so you could go either way with keeping or ditching the extra crystal if you stick with the amber.

How big will your boil be and are you adding any extract late? How much bittering hops to use depends on that.

 

[SchlazzGraft]

I was planning on doing about a 3 gallon boil (limited kettle size) and not doing late extract additions. In what way do late additions change the bitterness and overall flavor/mouthfeel?

 

[lumpher]

i love northern brewer, but not as a finishing hops. it's for bittering, unless you're brewing a steam beer. i'd drop the crystal or the amber, too, as they contain a lot of nonfermentables, and will end up malty and sweet, and replace with light

 

[dcp27]

well according to beersmith, that will only put you around 30IBUs, which is just enough for the style. It's up for debate, but until recently the thinking was that late extract additions upped hop utilization due to a less concentrated wort. For instance, in beersmith if you add the lme late, it ups you to around 40ibus. late extract adds also limit caramelization, which keeps the color lighter and can allow more attenuation.

 

[rayg]

i love northern brewer, but not as a finishing hops. it's for bittering, unless you're brewing a steam beer.

I have to disagree with that. Northern Brewer is basically a higher aa
version of English Fuggles, and as such they are great for flavor additions
(at 10 min) with hops such as Goldings. That's the way I make my porter:
60 min with Goldings, 10 min with NB, then dry hop with Goldings.

Ray

 

[SchlazzGraft]

I have to disagree with that. Northern Brewer is basically a higher aa
version of English Fuggles, and as such they are great for flavor additions
(at 10 min) with hops such as Goldings. That's the way I make my porter:
60 min with Goldings, 10 min with NB, then dry hop with Goldings.

Ray

Yeah I like the earthy aroma they give, like in a steam beer. I think i'm just going to boil the whole ounce for an hour though, and let the goldings take over the aroma.

In beersmith, i'm getting an IBU/OG ratio of 0.725 (36 IBU / 50 OG), does this sound about right for the style? I'm also planning on doing a late addition with the liquid extract (as suggested! thanks!), so it comes out a little lighter... the ibu is adjusted above for that.

 

[rayg]

Yeah I like the earthy aroma they give, like in a steam beer. I think i'm just going to boil the whole ounce for an hour though, and let the goldings take over the aroma.

In beersmith, i'm getting an IBU/OG ratio of 0.725 (36 IBU / 50 OG), does this sound about right for the style? I'm also planning on doing a late addition with the liquid extract (as suggested! thanks!), so it comes out a little lighter... the ibu is adjusted above for that.

ESB's are supposed to be malty, so if anything that seems a little
high for IBU's. On the other hand, with that much and that gravity
it should taste like a premium bitter, which would be fine with me!
Put it this way: Jamil's ESB recipe calls for 1.063 og and 30 IBU.

Ray

 

[smata67]

I've finished off two ESBs and an Amber (Pap's Righteous) within the last two months. 18 gallons worth. Makes me an expert. 28 IBUs is fine, shoot for it if you can. Personally, I'd just go ahead and brew with all you've got, it won't be a formal ESB, but I'm pretty sure it will be beer and drinkable. The Amber, which had 5# amber dme, I added 16 oz caramel 40. I thought that was about right for an amber, perhaps a tad on the malty side, so your LME should temper that some and put you in good territory, but you've made yourself an Amber/ESB hybrid. I do think that more amber means an extra week or two to reach its best.

 

[SchlazzGraft]

I've finished off two ESBs and an Amber (Pap's Righteous) within the last two months. 18 gallons worth. Makes me an expert. 28 IBUs is fine, shoot for it if you can. Personally, I'd just go ahead and brew with all you've got, it won't be a formal ESB, but I'm pretty sure it will be beer and drinkable. The Amber, which had 5# amber dme, I added 8 oz caramel 60. I thought that was about right for an amber, perhaps a tad on the malty side, so your LME should temper that some and put you in good territory, but you've made yourself an Amber/ESB hybrid. I do think that more amber means an extra week or two to reach its best.

Thanks for the info, I adjusted the recipe a little and decided that i might not do the late extract addition. Without that, i should only get a hair over 30 ibus.. which sounds pretty balanced to me.

I know its supposed to be on the malty side, like fullers, but i also really like the drier and hoppier bitters ive had (think american breweries, like the Rogue Younger Special Bitter)

 

[smata67]

This is the Amber Ale recipe that is similar to what you say you are going to do, basically, all amber dme with some crystal seeping grains. I added 1 lb of crystal 40 to this recipe. Initially I felt it was a bit "caramelly", but at about week 4, very nice, one of the best I've brewed to date. Lots of head and lacy foam all the way to the bottom of the glass. I've found not too worry too much about getting recipes "just right," in the end, its beer and rarely anything less than "very good." Just be sure to keep notes on excactly what you did so you can re-create/modify it later if need be. You should call it an amber ale, though, I haven't seen any ESB with amber extract.

http://www.brewmasterswarehouse.com/recipe/ac6bf09c/

 

[dcp27]

You should call it an amber ale, though, I haven't seen any ESB with amber extract.

just cuz you haven't seen it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. ESB and ambers are very broad styles, and it fits into both, but considering everything in this recipe is english, ESB is a better designation.

oh btw, id ditch the carapils for more biscuit

http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style08.php#1c

 

[smata67]

I agree it specs out as an ESB as well, but I think it will taste more like an american amber.

 

[SchlazzGraft]

Thanks for the input guys, I agree it might turn out more like an amber. Hopefully the hops will make it come through as a british beer though, regardless of the color and malt profile. Its true though, I generally fixate on making a certain style and then by the time I tweak it to my own tastes, it ends up being a little different.

dcp, is there any reason you say to get rid of the carapils? I happened to have half a pound of that and the biscuit left, so I figured I'd use em up. I've heard the carapils adds head retention, which I like a lot of.... especially since I'm not planning to prime with a full 3/4 cup of corn sugar (i'll probably use about 3 ounces or less to get 2.0 volumes of carb). Will the carapils add any negative qualities/flavors to the beer?

 

[dcp27]

no nothing negative, theres no real reason to get rid of it, especially if you're trying to use it up. id bump up the biscuit if u got it tho

 

[JonK331]

Thanks for the input guys, I agree it might turn out more like an amber. Hopefully the hops will make it come through as a british beer though, regardless of the color and malt profile. Its true though, I generally fixate on making a certain style and then by the time I tweak it to my own tastes, it ends up being a little different.

dcp, is there any reason you say to get rid of the carapils? I happened to have half a pound of that and the biscuit left, so I figured I'd use em up. I've heard the carapils adds head retention, which I like a lot of.... especially since I'm not planning to prime with a full 3/4 cup of corn sugar (i'll probably use about 3 ounces or less to get 2.0 volumes of carb). Will the carapils add any negative qualities/flavors to the beer?

Carapils is a crystal malt and will add more unfermentables to the recipe thereby increasing the final gravity. If you want to add some sweetness, add it, if you want to keep it more dry, don't. Also, with that little priming sugar, there won't be all that much head to retain anyway.

 

[SchlazzGraft]

no nothing negative, theres no real reason to get rid of it, especially if you're trying to use it up. id bump up the biscuit if u got it tho

I was thinking about bumping the biscuit up to half a pound and using it all up... even though you technically are supposed to mash it, I'm just going to steep it. I did that with my last beer and it gave it some nice bready character.

Carapils is a crystal malt and will add more unfermentables to the recipe thereby increasing the final gravity. If you want to add some sweetness, add it, if you want to keep it more dry, don't. Also, with that little priming sugar, there won't be all that much head to retain anyway.

Okay, so the unfermentables are what aid in the head retention. Will 3 ounces of priming sugar not be enough? I know ESB's are supposed to have a little less carb, but what would be an appropriate amount of sugar for the style?

 

[kanzimonson]

A side note: I'd say the yeast choice is far more important than the hop selection for making this an ESB vs an Amber. It will definitively not be an ESB if you don't use an English yeast.

 

[SchlazzGraft]

A side note: I'd say the yeast choice is far more important than the hop selection for making this an ESB vs an Amber. It will definitively not be an ESB if you don't use an English yeast.

Also very true, I ordered some of that Wyeast 1469 PC West Yorkshire. The description sounded dead on for what i'm going for, does anyone have good experience with this strain?