Am I Oxidizing My Beer With My Bottling Wand

[RM-MN]

We're not talking about diffusion in still water to 6m depth.

You are also over stating the abilities of the yeast to consume all oxygen. The yeast will only consume the O2 when it has dissolved into the beer and when it's actively fermenting. The diffusion process is governed by equilibrium. The yeast will have consumed all of that priming sugar long before all that oxygen has had time to diffuse into the beer. This is why the amount of O2 in the headspace must be meticulously lowered.

There's a reason why commercial beer fillers do a vacuum-co2 purge-vacuum-co2 purge-vacuum-co2 purge process before filling, then force the beer to foam and put a cap onto the foam.

Not the breweries I viewed. The bottles came down a line with their tops exposed to air, then filled and capped.

Have you filled bottles with a bottle wand? That 2 second exposure to O2 is followed by beer being added in a way that agitates and mixes it. The small amount of O2 introduced should have fully diffused into the beer before the bottler had time to cap the beer if it diffuses into beer so quickly as you seem to think. The actively fermenting of the priming sugar takes some time too, it isn't instantaneous.

 

[ba-brewer]

As with most things, that are different schools of thought about brewing and no one method is the 'right' way.

In my experience (and this thread is a perfect example of what happens here every day) is that most people on HBT are not scientifically or mathematically inclined. In fact they get quite uppity (e.g.replies above) when science and facts are brought into brewing discussions. It's evokes a zealous response in many people.

I'd suggest adding another website to your reading: http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/forum/

Half is about about reducing oxygen in beer, which does net you a certain result, but generally it's a more scientifically minded crowd. No one there will ever tell you RDWHAHB. It's not quite as lively as here, but the information is much better IMO.

I find it funny you use the word "zealous" with respect to the non-LODO brewers. I think it is the zeal of some of the LODO brewers that puts some people off.

For the record my process is non-LODO and I am open minded to the results and claims of LODO community, but I must also say there are time I read things and I am like Miraculix in that some do seem unbelievable.

I had followed the main LODO thread here for a long time and it was the experiences of some of the less zealous that keep me open minded. I am glad they created an area on this forum for LODO discussions.

 

[schematix]

Not the breweries I viewed. The bottles came down a line with their tops exposed to air, then filled and capped.

Have you filled bottles with a bottle wand? That 2 second exposure to O2 is followed by beer being added in a way that agitates and mixes it. The small amount of O2 introduced should have fully diffused into the beer before the bottler had time to cap the beer if it diffuses into beer so quickly as you seem to think. The actively fermenting of the priming sugar takes some time too, it isn't instantaneous.

Large modern brewers purge as I described.

Lot of micros use cheap low end equipment. I think it shows in the product they put on shelves.

 

[Miraculix]

I used to do the same thing but never thought I they were great, just good. Probably just ugly baby syndrome.

Maybe. Did show a few of them to a professional once who really knows his beers and he agreed with my idea about them. I tend to be hyper critical with everything I am doing, but the beers which turned out great, were great.

 

[Mike Page]

As with most things, that are different schools of thought about brewing and no one method is the 'right' way.

I

I'd suggest adding another website to your reading: http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/forum/

Half is about about reducing oxygen in beer, which does net you a certain result, but generally it's a more scientifically minded crowd. No one there will ever tell you RDWHAHB. It's not quite as lively as here, but the information is much better IMO.

Thank you for the link. I know forums arent a great place to learn. Sometimes I need a quick answer to a question. Often times an answer like this the ones I am receiving on this thread aren't right or perfect but it my research on this particular subject moving in the correct direction.

Do you have any other suggestions where to look for credible research? I almost through "the joy of homebrewing Vol 3". Which was a good start but if you have any recommendations on where to go from here that would be great.

 

[Sadu]

OP, any steps you make to reduce oxygen uptake on the cold side is a good thing and this advice is not controversial. If you are bottle conditioning this means bare minimum of splashing when stirring priming sugar and no splashing when filling. Use a small 1/2" headspace in each bottle. These aren't that difficult to do with practice. You also want to reduce O2 in the fermentor by not opening the lid unnecessarily.
Later on you want to look into pressure fermenting and closed transfers into kegs which vastly reduces cold side oxygen exposure. These made huge improvements to my beers.
After that there's the rabbit hole of LODO brewing on the hot side. This is much harder because its all or nothing, so get your cold side process sorted first.

 

[schematix]

Do you have any other suggestions where to look for credible research? I almost through "the joy of homebrewing Vol 3". Which was a good start but if you have any recommendations on where to go from here that would be great.

There's a lot to learn and a lot to sift through no doubt. Sounds like you're headed in the right direction.

That book is definitely more introductory in nature. Definitely makes the subject more approachable to get a little taste of everything.

One of my personal favorites is Technology Malting and Brewing by Kunze, but it is an advanced book. There's also a lot of good things to be found here: http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/

 

[Morrey]

After that there's the rabbit hole of LODO brewing on the hot side. This is much harder because its all or nothing, so get your cold side process sorted first.

In total agreement. Cold side O2 elimination has been my focus, whereas my brewing buddy's focus has been hot side. I may be saying this out of school, but I know darn well huge amounts of O2 exposure damage can be done to a beer on a cold side. Hot side to me may be more difficult to sort out the subtle nuances, and while this can be a topic of debate, I elected to focus on the cold side for now.

 

[Mike Page]

Later on you want to look into pressure fermenting and closed transfers into kegs which vastly reduces cold side oxygen exposure. These made huge improvements to my beers.

Thank you for the tips. I am looking at doing pressure transfers.

Since I have you guys here... I know one of the steps I can introduce oxygen is the movement from primary (or secondary) to the bottling bucket. I have access to a nearly limitless supply of 16 and 20-gram co2 cartridges. Would this be enough co2 to start the siphon to the bottling bucket? I hate using my auto siphon. I figure I can use a racking cane and set up one of the co2 cartridges through a second hole (with a way to regulate) in the rubber stopper. Once the siphon starts it doesn't need any positive pressure in the primary correct?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Is this something to be concerned about?

Thanks.

Absolutely not. Do you honestly think 1400's era brewers, or beer drinkers, were in the least bit concerned? It took another ~610 years before anyone mentioned it.

 

[schematix]

Absolutely not. Do you honestly think 1400's era brewers, or beer drinkers, were in the least bit concerned? It took another ~610 years before anyone mentioned it.

Do you honestly think 1400s era brewers made better beer than we do today?

 

[RM-MN]

Large modern brewers purge as I described.

Lot of micros use cheap low end equipment. I think it shows in the product they put on shelves.

Here I though Miller-Coors was one of the big brewers but I guess they are just a niche player. Thanks for setting me straight on that.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Do you honestly think 1400s era brewers made better beer than we do today?

That's impossible for me to say. What I can say is this. Being in a homebrew club with 40 members for years, not one member is convinced in all the oxygen fuss. And I'm talking AHA and other competition winners. Look, believers got to believe. I get that. I'm just saying not everyone has to be or is a believer.

 

[Sadu]

Thank you for the tips. I am looking at doing pressure transfers.

Since I have you guys here... I know one of the steps I can introduce oxygen is the movement from primary (or secondary) to the bottling bucket. I have access to a nearly limitless supply of 16 and 20-gram co2 cartridges. Would this be enough co2 to start the siphon to the bottling bucket? I hate using my auto siphon. I figure I can use a racking cane and set up one of the co2 cartridges through a second hole (with a way to regulate) in the rubber stopper. Once the siphon starts it doesn't need any positive pressure in the primary correct?

Maybe, but I think you are making this way harder than it needs to be. Siphoning is not a big deal at all - unless you are commercial brewing in which case local regs usually specifically prohibit starting a siphon with your mouth.

Start with a silicone tube. And you'll need a piece of plastic pipe or tube that fits inside the silicone tube. If you like, take a ballpoint pen and break it in half and it's probably about the right size.

Sanitise your silicone hose. One end of the hose goes into the beer. Use a clamp to hold it to the side of the bucket if you want.
Put your plastic pipe/tube in the other end and start sucking to draw beer into the hose.
Remove the plastic pipe/tube which has your mouth germs on it.
Pinch the silicone hose to stop the flow. Put the silicone hose in a bottle, then *slowly* release to start filling.

This is the best method of filling bottles I have found. Minimal gear to buy/sanitise, you can control the flow speed, you can fill bottles to the correct level, no risk of bubbles entering the line like an autosiphon.

 

[Mike Page]

Absolutely not. Do you honestly think 1400's era brewers, or beer drinkers, were in the least bit concerned? It took another ~610 years before anyone mentioned it.

There it is. I wasn't going to get into an argument over this but this has to be one of the most ridiculous ways to answer a question on this forum. If you ask your self why this is a ridiculous way to answer a question then you my friend need to stop leaning on the keyboard to hear your self talk. I'm out, done with this forum. Clearly, people on here would rather speculate and tell each other to relax and drink more beer.

 

[schematix]

Ignorance is bliss on HBT.

 

[Mothman]

Yes, the "bubbles" are from the splashing of the beer coming out of the bottling bucket.

This thread has gone sideways, but getting back to the original question...

I have never used a spring loaded bottling wand, only the standard wands, but I've never seen the beer come out with any amount of force.

I can't imagine the spring versions are much difference, beyond, I assume, closing off more strongly when lifted... if you are actually getting beer coming out with bubbles and splashing at the start of each bottle (not just the very first bottle), then I think maybe something is wrong with the bottling wand (in which case, replace it, or remove it if you want to use the methods described that don't use the wand).

Or maybe your bottling bucket is so much higher than the bottles you are filling, that the beer is flowing too quickly? Maybe lower the bucket? (i don't know if this actually would make a difference... I'm no physicist lol)

 

[grampamark]

Ignorance is bliss on HBT.

Then why are you still here?

Start a LODO message board where you and your fellow True Believers can pat each other on the back and giggle about how much more highly evolved you are than we Neanderthal brewers.

 

[eric19312]

Thank you for the tips. I am looking at doing pressure transfers.

Since I have you guys here... I know one of the steps I can introduce oxygen is the movement from primary (or secondary) to the bottling bucket. I have access to a nearly limitless supply of 16 and 20-gram co2 cartridges. Would this be enough co2 to start the siphon to the bottling bucket? I hate using my auto siphon. I figure I can use a racking cane and set up one of the co2 cartridges through a second hole (with a way to regulate) in the rubber stopper. Once the siphon starts it doesn't need any positive pressure in the primary correct?

I’m pretty sure you need to at least replenish the air in the growing headspace or you will end up losing the siphon.

.Sounds to me you are candidate for early migration to kegging and true closed transfers. You are never going to be satisfied with that bottling bucket route as no matter what you do to get the beer into that bucket once it’s there it is picking up oxygen.

Warning...snarky rant to follow.. I’m prob butt hurt due to your disparagement of my RDWHAHB comment....no worries it’s what makes the internet fun...anyway just picture it...The beer actually swirls a bit in the bucket...good for mixing the priming sugar solution in but... it is actually mixing atmospheric o2 into the beer. Since you can’t possibly bottle and transfer 5 gallons in less than 60 seconds you know for sure, due to internet knowledge, that beer is irrevocably ruined. At best it might be pretty good but no chance to aspire to the quality of commercial beer such as Budweiser which is well known for meticulous adherence to LODO technique.

 

[greyghost]

AMEN

Then why are you still here?

Start a LODO message board where you and your fellow True Believers can pat each other on the back and giggle about how much more highly evolved you are than we Neanderthal brewers.

AMEN

 

[schematix]

LOL that's what lowoxygenbrewing.com is for. what happened in this thread happens 100% of the time the subject comes up.

pretty well documented that HBT and other sites are not welcoming of the subject.

 

[RM-MN]

LOL that's what lowoxygenbrewing.com is for. what happened in this thread happens 100% of the time the subject comes up.

pretty well documented that HBT and other sites are not welcoming of the subject.

When you come back showing off the medal you have won and the times you have gotten a Ninkasi award for your totally superior beers I will become a believer. In the meanwhile, I remain a skeptic.

 

[Morrey]

Sounds to me you are candidate for early migration to kegging and true closed transfers. You are never going to be satisfied with that bottling bucket route as no matter what you do to get the beer into that bucket once it’s there it is picking up oxygen.

Absolutely my same thoughts (kegging) to achieve less O2 exposed beers. I think it is very difficult to avoid oxygen exposure with a bottling bucket. Even a small chest freezer with an ATC can get you started kegging. I used a picnic tap to dispense beer at first. Craigslist is a treasure chest to find low cost options.

Bottling will inevitably introduce oxygen, yet the debatable part is how much damage is done by O2 (if any), and how quickly said damage (if any) occurs. Additionally, carbing in the bottle seems less controllable than carbing in the keg with applied CO2. Once your beer is carbed to your desired level in the keg, you can easily bottle some beers for friends or competitions with devices like a beer gun. This device floods the bottle with CO2 in an attempt to rid the empty bottle of unwanted O2. I am not 100% sure this displaces all of the O2 (probably not), but is a very good way to bottle from keg if so desired. Kegging is very instrumental in closed system transfers.

Excuse my kegging rant....just an opinion.

 

[Drebin138]

Dude relax.... don't worry, be happy. Drink a beer. A tiny bit of oxygen won't matter. All these LODO/OCD freaks are here for entertainment value only. Don't worry. Bottle it, let it carb. Enjoy. Life's too short to sweat a bit of oxygen.
Cheers

It’s nice to see a veteran like yourself saying this. I feel like a lot of the one when someone newer like myself asks a question like this there’s a lot of doom and gloom responses. I don’t think anyone isn’t being genuine but sometimes the best advice is Relax. Don’t worry. Have a home brew.

 

[Morrey]

It’s nice to see a veteran like yourself saying this. I feel like a lot of the one when someone newer like myself asks a question like this there’s a lot of doom and gloom responses. I don’t think anyone isn’t being genuine but sometimes the best advice is Relax. Don’t worry. Have a home brew.

You make a good point. Brewers have to start somewhere and we don't typically start off with the knowledge level of seasoned veterans. New brewers often follow instruction sheets included in a kit and are totally focused on the basics. This is not the time for advanced ideas to be force fed to a novice. Learn to walk before you run.

As a brewer gets more experience, they (we) start fine tuning the process that can make a beer turn out better next time. It is really easy for a veteran brewer to forget that a first time brewer needs to simply make a beer and learn the basics. The new brewer is struggling to remember when to do this and that, so advanced techniques may be in order one day...but probably not today.

Common statement is: My first couple of brews were pretty bad....but they started getting better from there. Sure, I believe that. You're getting your act together and learning the process. From there we grow, learn and brew better beers along the way. Sooner or later, advanced theory will be embraced, but as a new brewer, simply making a beer is quite an accomplishment.

 

[schematix]

I think there’s a big difference between “relax” and “oxidation isn’t real”.

“Relax” infers that you don’t need to overly worry about mistakes.

“Oxidation isn’t real” infers you lack knowledge on the subject.

You can both relax, and acknowledge oxidation exists and occurs to various extents. The two are not exclusive.

Still don’t get why this always leads to pissing contest.

 

[Mothman]

Did anyone say "oxidation isn't real"?

What I got out of the bulk of the posts that seem to be irritating you is "oxidation is a thing, but it's not anything to be worried about".

The "don't need to worry about it" is a subjective opinion. Your "you can only make 'good beer', not 'great beer' without using LODO techniques" is also a subjective opinion.

As you said, you can acknowledge oxidation exists, and still not worry about it. The two are not exclusive. No pissing contest required.

 

[AkTom]

/\ this. Especially for a new brewer getting his process down. I'll run for cover again;-)
Cheers all, enjoy your process, and brews.

 

[jschein]

Trying to fine tune my process. I recently bottled my third batch and while bottling I feel like I am introducing oxygen. When I use my spring loaded bottling wand the first few seconds the beer shoots out and bubbles quiet a bit and gets swished around. I cant imagine this is good for the beer. I try to be gentle but it still seems to happen. Is this something to be concerned about?

Thanks.

Yes and you ruined your beer, only kidding, you will be fine. Drink on

 

[Drebin138]

I think there’s a big difference between “relax” and “oxidation isn’t real”.

“Relax” infers that you don’t need to overly worry about mistakes.

“Oxidation isn’t real” infers you lack knowledge on the subject.

You can both relax, and acknowledge oxidation exists and occurs to various extents. The two are not exclusive.

Still don’t get why this always leads to pissing contest.

I definitely agree the two aren’t exclusive and don’t mean to suggest that they are. I’m just not sure the Beginners forum is the best place for this debate to take place.

Since most of us just starting out are likely to be using the standard yet primitive plastic bucket set up there really isn’t much we can do besides move quickly so we don’t leave our beer exposed for too long.

As a dude who is only on his second batch my main concerns right now are all about making sure I’m going through each step correctly and efficiently.

I think for beginners before oxidation we should be more worried about temperature control on brew day and during fermentation. I’d even put wether or not we should be treating the water we use to boil ahead of oxidation concerns this early in our beer making careers.

Just my 2 cents as someone who isn’t knowledgeable enough to really even be able to have a fight in the oxidation game.