Am I cursed? Dead white labs again?

[bakins]

So, I must be cursed. my 5th (yes 5th) apparent dead vial of white labs. Yes, all with starters. On last few I've taken gravity readings and had no change after 24 hours. With Wyeast smack packs, my starters are done after 24 hours. I've done dozens of batches with Wyeast and never had a single issue. More beer, however, sells only Whitelabs, and I order from them when the deal of the day looks good.

So, either I have extremely bad luck or something else is going on. Last time, I had another vial of the same type that I pitched in with it and the beer turned out fine.

And, yes, I've had 5 vials do just fine as I would expect.

Am I just impatient? Isn't 24 hours enough for a starter? On this batch, same deal with a vial of wlp007. I have another vial, should I give it a shot?

Long story, but I have little hope of getting a replacement/refund from more beer. (Don't ask, just too long and confusing...) Most of these vials were actually replacement vials from a UPS screw-up.

 

[BioBeing]

Most of these vials were actually replacement vials from a UPS screw-up.

This sounds like your problem... 5 vials in the same shipment suggests bad shipping conditions to me.

 

[Zen_Brew]

That is verry odd. White Labs makes a very high quality product. You've probably looked at the usual suspects here, but I'd look at the expiration date on the vial, was it shipped with a cool pack to keep it cool? What were the temperaures in the zones the yeast would have shipped through? If the yeast starts getting over 90 degrees you can get into trouble as that is about where they start dropping off. That is the first thing I'd try to look at.

I'd say in most cases 24 hours in a starter is enough time to see some activity or drop in gravity. What size starter, what gravity, and is the starter on a stir plate? How long did you let the starter go before you decided it was bad?

 

[bakins]

This sounds like your problem... 5 vials in the same shipment suggests bad shipping conditions to me.

Well, the 5 bad weren't the same shipment. And all the vials from the known "bad shipment" weren't counted toward this 5. (They sat on a dock for like 4 days bcs someone screwed up.)

 

[bakins]

- but I'd look at the expiration date on the vial

couple on months away in all cases.

- was it shipped with a cool pack to keep it cool?

Yes

- What size starter, what gravity, and is the starter on a stir plate?

Usually 2 quarts at 1.040

- How long did you let the starter go before you decided it was bad?

24 hours. I can't cancel brew days when I get a chance to brew bcs, so I work around it - use a dry pack, hope I have a vial/pack of something similar, etc.

All had "bubbles" in the vial when I shook them. Of course, that's not a real telling factor.

I guess I'm that .01% guy. I'm letting this started go another day, just bcs that $7 wasted if I use my other vial of WLP007.

Never had a single issue with wyeast...

 

[Brewsmith]

I would find a retail store, even online, that is closer to you than California. White Labs ships in styrofoam packaging with ice packs and has the packinging down solid. From there you are trusting for it to be stored, repackaged, kept cold and shipped, all under ideal conditions before it gets to you.

Midwest, Northern Brewer, and Austin HBS would all be vastly closer.

Minimize the distance between the store and you.

 

[bakins]

Midwest, Northern Brewer, and Austin HBS would all be vastly closer.

And they all sell wyeast, as well. Only reason I've ever bought white labs was bcs that's what B3 sells. (FWIW, the guys who came up with deal-of-the-day, but free shipping is at $59 are marketing geniuses. Like, I'll buy a small deal for $10 at a "big" discount only to spend $50 on misc. stuff.)

Every vial that turned out well made good beer, so I don't doubt the yeast quality.

I guess I'll just avoid buying yeast from B3... No offense to them, but not a good statistical bet...

 

[wildwest450]

You can't expect it to sit in a truck a long time in the summer heat and live, even with an ice pack. Did you do the free shipping from morebeer? If so it takes 8 days for them to get to Tenn.

Also you don't need to change your brew days, make your starters 3 to 4 days early in case there's a problem.

 

[BioBeing]

Well, the 5 bad weren't the same shipment.

Sorry - I read that into it.

All had "bubbles" in the vial when I shook them. Of course, that's not a real telling factor.

I guess I'm that .01% guy. I'm letting this started go another day, just bcs that $7 wasted if I use my other vial of WLP007.

Never had a single issue with wyeast...

What do you mean by "bubbles in the vial"? The yeast are going to be dormant when you get the vial (assuming they are not dead!), not bubbling...

And how are you telling if your starter is growing? How do you grow your starters for wyeast yeast?

TBH, I doubt if this is a White Labs problem per se.

 

[BioBeing]

Every vial that turned out well made good beer, so I don't doubt the yeast quality.

Huh? Are these the "dead" vials you are talking about here? I can't quite parse your grammar.

 

[bakins]

Huh? Are these the "dead" vials you are talking about here? I can't quite parse your grammar.

The vials that I used in the starters that behaved as expected, ie, fermented, when pitched, produced good beer. (Sorry, I speak code a lot better than english. I could probably write a state machine to explain it...)

The dead vials, obviously, produced nothing.

So if it is a shipping issue, then the cold packs are useless. But, once the package actually ships, I get them in about 5 days - same as when I order Wyeast from NB, MW, etc. (Most of the wait time with B3 is them actually putting the order together.) Perhaps, I should do another test and order a couple of vials of whitelabs from one of those vendors.

 

[bakins]

So, anyway to this batch. Should I give it another day or so, or just declare it dead?

I no-chill, FWIW, so I've got time, I just generally don't go over 48 hours before pitching. I usually start my starter on brew day, then about 36 hours later pitch the whole thing.

Update: decided to just use the second vial of wlp007. chances are it's dead too. Have some nottingham as a backup.

 

[JKoravos]

Not to state the obvious, but you probably shouldn't order liquid yeast from somewhere 2,500 miles away anymore.

I don't know if you've ever been in the back of an 18-wheeler in the summer, but it's like 120°F or more in there. You'd need about 20 ice packs for it to make it to Georgia alive 10 times out of 10.

 

[Saccharomyces]

You are closer to Brew Master's Warehouse. Order from him next time.

 

[nostalgia]

I have had Wyeast smack-packs take up to 5 days to show signs of activity in a starter. While 24 hours is the norm, longer lags are not unheard of.

-Joe

 

[bakins]

You are closer to Brew Master's Warehouse. Order from him next time.

I live in Georgia. Unless it's been changed, I still can't...

 

[Zen_Brew]

Rebel Brewer in Tennesee looks to sell Wyeast and White Labs. Probably about the closest to you. He claims 1 day shipping to half of Georgia. You might be in the right half.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f41/www-rebelbrewer-com-new-hbt-sponsor-132018/
Homebrew Supplies for Making Beer - Rebel Brewer

 

[ghpeel]

I haven't had great luck with White Labs either. Probably a third of the starters I've attempted didn't do anything, and some took so long to start that I altered my brew plans. Of course, my local home brew shop seems to always have old (but not ancient) tubes of WL, it might be an age factor. Currently, the only yeast I REALLY need as liquid is WLP 530. I've just started using real Hefe yeast (WLP 300), so maybe that too. Other than that, I'll just still to ol' reliable S-04. US-04 and Notty too.

I think I might switch to smack packs, and order several packs of the two yeasts above during cooler months, and try to have some on hand during summer. Which, in Florida, is like April - October

 

[homebrewer_99]

Sometimes 24 hours is not long enough.

I've successfully used WL yeast that has been expired over 1 and 2 years.

I doubt if it's your yeast that's the problem. What's your starter technique/process?

 

[bakins]

I doubt if it's your yeast that's the problem. What's your starter technique/process?

The same process that always works great with Wyeast from AHS, NB, and MW...

I think that no matter how the yeast is treated (started, ice packs, etc.) 2500 miles in the summer is a good way to kill it. I'll stick to much closer vendors for liquid yeast from here on.

 

[homebrewer_99]

The same process that always works great with Wyeast from AHS, NB, and MW...

I think that no matter how the yeast is treated (started, ice packs, etc.) 2500 miles in the summer is a good way to kill it. I'll stick to much closer vendors for liquid yeast from here on.

OK, as long as your process is the same then maybe it is the yeast...

 

[uechikid]

I buy all my yeast from More Beer. I do have the benefit of driving there and getting my ingredients in person. But I have never had a bad vile of yeast.

 

[uechikid]

Food for thought. Maybe you should do a big batch of starter, separate it into 12 oz beer bottles and put them into your fridge. That way you will have yeast that you know is alive.

 

[SamuraiSquirrel]

I just used a vial of belgin wit yeast from White Labs yesterday. I ordered from AHS. I didn't use a starter. Pitched it at 7:00 PM yesterday. Woke up this morning and already had a bubble per second going

I read this thread earlier and it made me worry since it was my first time using liquid yeast. I would have made a starter but didn't have any DME or time to get it going. Looks like it worked out ok though.

 

[SamuraiSquirrel]

I live in Illinois by the way. Was worried about it shipping from Texas lol. I added the ice pack but it was not even cold by the time it got to me.

 

[kanzimonson]

I've definitely had some liquid yeast take its sweet time to get going.

I finally decided that I'm going to make my starter over a week before brew day, let it ferment completely, put in the fridge, and harvest the settled yeast. I decant the "wort," pour in some sterile water, and then pour the yeast mess into a flip-top beer bottle.

I like this method because I don't like the thought of adding the all that starter volume to my beer.

 

[brewt00l]

I generally just get my liquid yeast from my LHBS and haven't had any issue with their stock.

I've ordered both White Labs and Wyeast from several online vendors and at various points through out the year, w/ ice in the summer, and I've only encountered dead yeast in one shipment......2 vials and 1 smack pack, all from the same vendor arrived DOA.

 

[bakins]

I generally just get my liquid yeast from my LHBS and haven't had any issue with their stock.

My LHBS is about 2 hours away with traffic

I generally use either Notty or US-05 for my "American" Styles and s-04 for my "British" Styles. I do a good bit of Belgians, and there really aren't any good Belgian dry yeasts that I've found.

 

[humann_brewing]

I had my first dead vial on my recent Pliny clone from AHS with a WLP001. I put it in with some wort from the brew, about 2/3 gallon on the stir plate, put plenty of oxygen in it and nothing after 48 hours.

I pitched some US-05 last night right when I went to bed and had a blow off this morning.

I am wondering if I should contact AHS, the vial didn't have much yeast in it and was mostly liquid at least compared to all the other White Labs I have had.

 

[Pappers_]

I live in Illinois by the way. Was worried about it shipping from Texas lol. I added the ice pack but it was not even cold by the time it got to me.

Hi Yeast. Bev-Art is a LHBS in the city's Beverly neighborhood, 101st and Western. They have a nice selection of White Labs - it might be worth a trip for yoy to drive in and stock up.