Altered Pale Ale Water Profile

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butterblum

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I was wondering if anyone has dialed back the Bru'n Water Pale Ale profile for their beers.
I have had some issues with boiling off too much water and concentrating ions too much, but I think I also want a little less sulfate in my pale ales.
How does this water profile look for a more balanced session IPA?
Ca: 80ppm
Mg: 18ppm
Na: 20ppm
SO4: 201ppm
Cl2: 60ppm
Bicarbonate: 30ppm

This results in:
Cations: 6.3meq/L
Anions: 6.4meq/L
Total Hardness: 274
Alkalinity: 25
RA: -43
SO4/Cl2 Ratio: 3.4

Thanks!
 
That's still quite a bit more than I use- I generally like my IPAs and APAs at 135-150 ppm of sulfate. I have one recipe where I like more, but overall I just don't like as much sulfate as in that profile.
 
That's still quite a bit more than I use- I generally like my IPAs and APAs at 135-150 ppm of sulfate. I have one recipe where I like more, but overall I just don't like as much sulfate as in that profile.
How does the rest look?
I remember reading something from Mitch Steele saying that Ca should be fairly high in an IPA profile.
 
You are not the first brewer to find that the Pale Ale profile and a high boil off evaporation...do not work well. If your evaporation is greater than about 15 percent, its very likely that you are overconcentrating the ionic content which results in an overly minerally beer flavor. Small batch brewers are especially likely to have excessive evaporation loss percentage. Ideally, you do want to limit the percentage to the 8 to 10 percent range. That often means that you'll need to cover the kettle and turn down the heat for at least the early stage of your boil.
 
The rest looks fine to me, but I don't see a projected mash pH. A pH of 5.3-5.4 would be perfect.
If I don't add my sparge water salts to the mash, I would have an estimated mash pH of 5.41
If I do add all of the salts to my mash, I have an estimated pH of 5.25
I might just add like 2/3 of the sparge salts to the mash.
 
I was wondering if anyone has dialed back the Bru'n Water Pale Ale profile for their beers.
I have had some issues with boiling off too much water and concentrating ions too much, but I think I also want a little less sulfate in my pale ales.
How does this water profile look for a more balanced session IPA?
Ca: 80ppm
Mg: 18ppm
Na: 20ppm
SO4: 201ppm
Cl2: 60ppm
Bicarbonate: 30ppm

This results in:
Cations: 6.3meq/L
Anions: 6.4meq/L
Total Hardness: 274
Alkalinity: 25
RA: -43
SO4/Cl2 Ratio: 3.4

You are using an elaborate process and spending the better part of the day in order to turn beer into water. After expending all that effort, there is a relatively simple process that turns more water into beer with very little additional effort and solve the problem you pose here. Say you planning a 5 gal batch and will prepare 7 gal of water for this expecting the grains to retain 1 and to lose 1 to evaporation in the boil. Use 6/5 times as much of each grain as your 5 gal recipe calls for and after boiling add 1 gal of mineral free (i.e. RO) water to the kettle. You just got a gallon of free beer and your minerals are not concentrated.

As to the profile: You certainly don't want any alkalinity (bicarbonate) in it. This is not a terribly big deal as that much alkalinity can be neutralized with a little acid and you will be adding acid any way but rather than add bicarbonate and then neutralize it with sulfate or chloride or lactate or phosphate why not just skip the alkalinity altogether and use more of a sulfate or chloride salt?

You can get a pretty good (biggest error 12.8% shy on the sulfate, 11% high on the calcium) match to your desired profile (without bicarbonate) with the following mineral additions to RO water. Errors of less that 20% won't make any difference as you won't be able to taste them and profiles are pretty arbitrary anyway.

Salt............ mg/gal..mg/L
CaCl2.2H2O 193.04 51.00
NaCl 199.08 52.60
MgCl2.6H2O 0.00 0.00
CaSO4.2H20 676.36 178.69
MgSO4.7H20 733.05 193.67

If you really want the sulfate you can get the error in that down to - 5% at the expense of increasing calcium error to 21.7% with these additions to RO.
Salt............ mg/gal..mg/L
CaCl2.2H2O 169.48 44.77 44.77
NaCl 204.29 53.97 53.97
MgCl2.6H2O 0.00 0.00 0.00
CaSO4.2H20 791.07 208.99 208.99
MgSO4.7H20 768.64 203.07 203.07

You can get dead nuts on with respect to all ions except sodium if you are willing to let it go wild (to 44 mg/L)

Salt............ mg/gal..mg/L
CaCl2.2H2O 217.75 57.53
NaCl 201.25 53.17
CaSO4.2H20 558.01 147.42
MgSO4.7H20 690.91 182.53
NaOH 149.31 39.45
Sulfuric 183.89 48.58

Note, however, that we are now using lye and sulfuric acid (as the source of the additional wanted sulfate). The amounts used are just shy of 1 mEq/L but are not quite equivalent as I did this synthesis for water at pH 5.4 i.e. mash pH. You could use 0.98 mmol/L sodium sulfate and get the same result but at pH 7. Having to mess with strong acid and base fliesin the face of my original suggestion that you would not want to synthesize alkaline water because you would have to neutralize the alkalinity. Using sodium sulfate would remove this conflict but your LHBS probably does not have it.
 
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As to the profile: You certainly don't want any alkalinity (bicarbonate) in it. This is not a terribly big deal as that much alkalinity can be neutralized with a little acid and you will be adding acid any way but rather than add bicarbonate and then neutralize it with sulfate or chloride or lactate or phosphate why not just skip the alkalinity altogether and use more of a sulfate or chloride salt?
I am just calculating salt additions for a 3 gallon batch + 0.75 gallon loss due to grain absorption. With a 3 gallon fermenter, I don't have the freedom to just add a gallon of top-off water.
According to Bru'n Water, the less bicarbonate I add, the lower my residual alkalinity (I mean, like -60 RA). Is that okay?
What is the goal: an RA of close to zero, or an RA as low as possible, even if it's negative?
 
The goal is proper mash pH. RA was conceived as a means of comparing water sources. It was never intended to be used as means of mash pH prediction. Going further gets complicated pretty quickly. You are probably best off ignoring what I said and just doing what the spreadsheet advises. Or follow the guidance in the Primer.
 
I am just calculating salt additions for a 3 gallon batch + 0.75 gallon loss due to grain absorption. With a 3 gallon fermenter, I don't have the freedom to just add a gallon of top-off water.
According to Bru'n Water, the less bicarbonate I add, the lower my residual alkalinity (I mean, like -60 RA). Is that okay?
What is the goal: an RA of close to zero, or an RA as low as possible, even if it's negative?

RA is an invention of brewers. It relates the contributions of water hardness and alkalinity in the mash tun. A negative RA is possible for natural waters and a negative RA is typically targeted when brewing pale beer styles.

Bru'n Water does employ an accounting measure that AJ dismisses, but Bru'n Water shows a negative Bicarbonate result too. That negative Bicarbonate just means that there is extra acidity in the water and that also is typically needed when brewing pale beers.

Acid is your friend!
 
RA is an invention of brewers. It relates the contributions of water hardness and alkalinity in the mash tun. A negative RA is possible for natural waters and a negative RA is typically targeted when brewing pale beer styles.

Bru'n Water does employ an accounting measure that AJ dismisses, but Bru'n Water shows a negative Bicarbonate result too. That negative Bicarbonate just means that there is extra acidity in the water and that also is typically needed when brewing pale beers.

Acid is your friend!

Martin,
Does the sparge acidification sheet take into account the salt additions that are calculated for the sparge water on the water adjustment sheet?
I'm trying to calculate the acid addition to my sparge water if I add most of the salts for my sparge water to the mash.
Thanks
 
Martin,
Does the sparge acidification sheet take into account the salt additions that are calculated for the sparge water on the water adjustment sheet?

No. The sparge acidification sheet only deals with sparging water.

The acidifying effects of calcium and magnesium salts added to the sparging water DO NOT really work in the sparge since much of the phytin in the wort is being stripped from the grist and that RA effect doesn't really take place. So it doesn't matter if you do or don't add salts to the sparging water...you still need to neutralize excessive alkalinity in the sparging water with some form of acid.
 
Bru'n Water does employ an accounting measure that AJ dismisses, but Bru'n Water shows a negative Bicarbonate result too. That negative Bicarbonate just means that there is extra acidity in the water and that also is typically needed when brewing pale beers.

I don't dismiss it because as it is a proxy for mEq/L I understand exactly how it works (or should work). Technically, this is OK. One could use vanadate in this way if he wanted to and this would be preferable, IMO, to bicarbonate because everyone knows what bicarbonate is and everyone knows that you can't have negative bicarbonate and so users get confused when they see that their RO water to which they have added a little lime shows, on the spreadsheet, a value for bicarbonate if they have added acid, a negative value for bicarbonate, even though they know there is none in either case. Brewers who know a little chemistry know that the equivalence for bicarbonate changes with pH and are confused as to whether this is taken into account. The essence of water chemistry and pH prediction is in accounting for the transfer of protons to and from added acids, added bases, bicarbonate, carbonate and malt. The unit in which protons are best measured is the mEq/L. Newer students of water chemistry should not be confused by negative mEq/L as if positive mEq means a surfeit clearly negative means a deficit of protons. Learn to think in terms of this unit and understanding is enhanced. Thus, were I a publisher of a spreadsheet given the option of expressing alkalinity and acidity in a unit which confuses users or in a unit which enhances understanding I would pick the latter. I know that this is rather like trying to convince Mrs that life is really easier with the metric system (and she comes from a country which has adopted it). Isn't going to happen with her and it isn't going to happen here either but I feel I should keep trying.

The acidifying effects of calcium and magnesium salts added to the sparging water DO NOT really work in the sparge since much of the phytin in the wort is being stripped from the grist and that RA effect doesn't really take place...
Well yes it does. Phytin is not the only source of hydrogen ions in the presence of calcium/magnesium. Proteins, for example, are precipitated with calcium and not all the phosphate in the malt is precipitated in the mash. This fact is well known to brewers many of who add calcium to the kettle (or sparge water) in order to capitalize on this effect.

Kolbachs observation was that 3.5 mEq of calcium or 7 mEq of magnesium neutralized 1 mEq of alkalinity meaning that 1 mEq of protons was released. He made it clear (though I missed this when I translated his paper - talk about forests and trees - Kai had to point it out to me) that this delivery of protons, the RA effect, if you will, is as measured at knockout - not in the mash.

OK, technically the 'RA effect' is minimal in the lautering tun. But salts you add to sparge water will, obviously, make into the kettle. That's where the additional RA effect proton release will take place.
 
OK, technically the 'RA effect' is minimal in the lautering tun. But salts you add to sparge water will, obviously, make into the kettle. That's where the additional RA effect proton release will take place.

Yes, that RA effect will take place in the kettle. But since the wort remaining in the grain bed is diluted substantially (proteins, phytin, everything...) by the sparging water, that acidifying effect won't effectively take place in THAT setting.
 
The goal is proper mash pH. RA was conceived as a means of comparing water sources. It was never intended to be used as means of mash pH prediction. Going further gets complicated pretty quickly.

I thought about this a bit more. It isn't actually that complicated at all so I thought I'd show how one estimates/controls mash pH. RA is sort of buried in there as we shall see. Estimation or control of pH is effected by calculation of the sum of a list of proton deficits, one for each item added to the mash. This sum is

m1*a1*(pHz - pHDI1) + m2*a2*(pHz - pHDI2) + ... + Ab*Nb - Aa*Na + Vw*Qw(pHz,pHs,alk) - r*Vw*([Ca] + [Mg]/2)/3.5

The hardest part about computing this sum is keeping track of what all the symbols mean so you can come up with a number to put in the formula. Let's define the symbols first and then go on to discuss where we get numbers for them

m1 is the mass, in kg, of the first malt
a1 is the linear term in this malt's buffering capacity
pHz is the pH you are either trying to estimate or the pH you want to hit.
pHDI1 is the distilled water mash pH for the first malt

m2,a2 and pHDI2 are the parameters for a second malt, m3,a3 and pHDI3 etc

Ab is the 'amount' of any base added to the mash (or its liquor). Nb is the strength of the base (mEq protons absorbed by a unit amount).

Aa is the 'amount' of any base added to the mash (or its liquor). Na is the strength of the base (mEq protons emitted by a unit amount).

Vw is the volume of the mash liquor (litres)
Qw is the number of protons required to lower the pH of the water from pHs to pHz
pHs is the pH of the untreated water (i.e. no acids or bases added to it)

r is factor that represents the portion of the calcium/phosphate reaction that takes place in the mash tun
[Ca] is the calcium hardness, mEq/L
[Mg] is the magnesium hardness, mEq/L

The obvious way to compute the sum is to assign adjacent cells in a spreadsheet to m , a and pHDI for each of the malts, and to have additional cells where the water parameters (Vw, pHs, alk,r) and the acid and base parameters (Aa, Na, Ab, Nb) can be entered. Then put each of the terms in the sum into a cell in a column at the bottom of which have a cell with =Sum(Ax:Ay) in it which cell will contain the sum. In this way you will have a clear display of what each malt is contributing to the sum, what the acid and base additions are contributing and what the water is doing.

Right below the sum put a cell for pHz. This is the 'master variable'.
Now enter everything you know about the malts, the acids or bases and the water (we'll get to how to compute Qw, Na and Nb shortly) into the assigned cells. Then:
To estimate mash pHz put values into the pHz cell until you find one which causes the sum to equal 0.
To hit a particular desired pHz (z stands for Ziel - the German word for goal) enter that pHz and fiddle with amounts of malts, acids, bases etc until you find value which zeroes the sum.

Excel has a powerful tool called the Solver which does the trials for you and finds the zeroing value(s) automatically.

Now let's look at Qw(pHz,pHs,alk) - r*([Ca] + [Mg]/2)/3.5. This looks pretty close to RA = alk - ([Ca] + [Mg]/2)/3.5 which is Kolbach's definition of RA. Were Qw(pHz,pHs,alk) = alk and r = 1 it would be the RA. Qw(pHz,pHs,alk) obviously depends on pHz and pHs but only weakly. It is almost always right arounf 0.9*alk. r = 1 represents the full proton release at knockout. As we know protons are released in the kettle when calcium is present we must assume that not all the protons are released in the mash but really don't have much insight as to what typical fractions are in the mash. So we use r = 0.5. This is clearly a parameter you can play with. Typically the proton release from the calcium reaction is small so what value you choose for r won't make much difference. So if we define a new RA' = 0.9*alk - ([Ca] + [Mg]/2)/7 we could say that mash pH prediction does indeed depend on residual alkalinity.

To be continued...
 
I brewed a 5.5% Pale Ale in February with Maris Otter and 4% Crystal 60L and all Amarillo hops, NO dry hopping. 33 IBUs, 7.5 SRM, mash pH was 5.4 and I adjusted the water to 70 ppm Cl and 140 ppm SO4 and I liked it a lot. I feel that you can still add more bitterness and sulfate at this level, so I'm going to try that with my upcoming IPAs.
 
In this post we'll see how to calculate values for the symbols in the sum discussed in No. 15

m1 etc are just the masses of malt you intend to use. Units here are kg but conversion to lbs or shekels if you want are trivial in a spreadsheet.
PHDI is measured by making a small test mash with the malt in question. If you are willing to do this you will find a substantial improvement over the popular spreadsheets with estimate pHDI from malt type or color.

The malts buffering is a1*(pHz - pHDI1) + b1*(pHz - pHDI1)^2 + c1*(pHz - pHDI1)^3 ≈ a1*(pHz - pHDI1) as pHz is generally within a couple of tenths of pHDI (exception: high colored malts and sauermalz but these are usually used in smaller quantities relative to base malts) and c < b < a. Thus you can get pretty good estimates by just using the linear term. In fact you don't really even have to know the linear term that accurately. People are measuring and collecting data on malts so values for a are becoming available but if you don't have one just use a = 40. Measuring a is a pretty simple matter. After you measure pHDI repeat the measurement with little acid and measure the new pH. a is the added acid divided by the pH shift it caused divided by the kg of malt tested.

We'd better do acid next. Aa, the amount of acid, is going to be either a volume of liquid acid, such as lactic, or a mass of a solid acid such as citric. When Aa is a volume of acid Na is it's normality which is the number of mEq protons released by each mL of the liquid. For lactic or phosphoric acid the normality depends a little on mash pHz but for lactic acid am 88% solution is 11.5 N at mash pH. Phosphoric at 10% strength is 1.1N and at 80% is 13.5. If the acid is a solid proceed as for a base.

For a base Ab is likely to be a mass. For a solid Nb is the protons absorbed per mg mass. This is 40, 56 or 37 mg/mEq for, respectively NaOH, KOH or Ca(OH)2. These numbers are the equivalent weights of the base. For sodium bicarbonate the equivalent weight depends on pHz:

pHz Eq Wt
5.3 66.6 mg/mEq
5.4 68.0
5.5 69.1
5.6 72.2

If you have a solution of a base proceed as described for acid.
 

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