Altbier fermentation temperature schedule

[Zippox]

I have an Excelsior Altbier kit that I will be making shortly and I read that at least at some point it is best to ferment this thing cold. So I bought a big tub and froze a bunch of water bottles.

My question is, can someone tell me what the best fermentation schedule is to follow? Should I start at a low temp, and if so, what temp? And how about for secondary, temp and length?

I'm looking for a timeline with temperatures. Thanks!

 

[rkbarnes82]

Which yeast are you using?

 

[JLem]

Which yeast are you using?

^this...a true alt, using a true alt yeast should be fermented cooler than most other ales, but it really depends on the yeast.

IF you have a true alt yeast (or kolsch yeast)....ferment in the upper 50s-low 60s. After it's done I like to ramp the temp up to the mid-high 60s to ensure a complete fermentation. Then, lager it for a few weeks before bottling. Basically alts lie in the range between ales and lagers - fermented warmer than lagers but cooler than most ales. You can think of them as a stepping stone to full lager brewing.

 

[Zippox]

I have Muntons dry yeast, and I should have a safale-04 lying around. I'm willing to make this thing as legit as possible, and if the yeast I have won't give me that, which do you guys recommend?

If I end up getting a liquid yeast (have yet to do that), will I need to make a starter?

 

[Zippox]

I guess they were supposed to give me us-05. Should I get that one for the alt? Midwest said i could ise german ale 1007 from wyeast or White labs #029 if I wanted liquid.

 

[JLem]

I guess they were supposed to give me us-05. Should I get that one for the alt? Midwest said i could ise german ale 1007 from wyeast or White labs #029 if I wanted liquid.

Personally, I would go with the German ale liquid yeast. It's really the yeast that makes this style. Best would be white labs alt strain if you can get it...might be a seasonal yeast though.

 

[Zippox]

I'm probably now obligated to purchase an Erlenmeyer flask and some DME now I assume. Probably can't just pitch the liquid yeast straight in, right? Seeing as this is nearly a lager, I'll probably need a higher yeast count so I don't stress them too much.

 

[JLem]

I'm probably now obligated to purchase an Erlenmeyer flask and some DME now I assume. Probably can't just pitch the liquid yeast straight in, right? Seeing as this is nearly a lager, I'll probably need a higher yeast count so I don't stress them too much.

DME, yes. Erlenmeyer, not necessarily. I use a growler to build my starters. My brother used to use a big glass jar he had laying around the house...so you might have something already you can use. Take a look at mrmalty.com for a good yeast calculator to figure out how big a starter to make.

 

[atreid]

I'd be surprised you can maintain alt bier fermentation temperature using only a tub with ice, especially during active fermentation... but you can try...! ;-) I suggest rotating those frozen bottles 2-3 times a day, at least!

This is one style I want to wait until I finish buulding my fermentation chamber...

Instead of an erlenmeyer, I paid 8$ at a "dollar" shop for an 8L jar. Don't put an airlock for starters, just cover the top with aluminum foil. Yeast grow a lot better with oxygen. When you're finished, toss it in the fridge, let it sediment, throw away the beer on the top and only pitch the yeast.... (you can leave enough beer to let you swirl back the yeast in suspension for pitching, or add some fresh wort). (I say "beer" but it's not... Oxygenated propagation is not Fermentation, so there wouldn't be much alcool in there, only used up wort with off flavors)...

 

[Zippox]

I like the idea of a glass jug. Midwest sells one for like 6 bucks, will probably just do that. Thanks all for the replies

 

[atreid]

Erlenmeyers can in theory withstand extreme temperature changes (from boil to ice)... Don't make that mistake with a jar.... ;-)

 

[JLem]

Erlenmeyers can in theory withstand extreme temperature changes (from boil to ice)... Don't make that mistake with a jar.... ;-)

Good point...growlers can't either...I know firsthand

 

[Zippox]

I fermented this at 60*F for 2 weeks, around 63 for about a week after that. Yesterday I decided to move it to my garage because I took a look at the weather and I should be able to keep it right around 33-40*F for a least a week (as long as it doesn't go too low or too high after that I can keep it longer there). So as you can tell, I ended up not racking it... Will lagering it for a week/two be fine?

I hear most people rack this beer then lager. Just wondering if I am going to get any problems with not taking it off the cake.

 

[AndMan3030]

I would rack before lagering. I would also like to see what others think on this. I am brewing a munich dunkel, and am ready to rack to secondary. do I bring the temp up now for diactyl rest? or wait till I'm done lagering.

Thanks!

 

[JLem]

From a yeast health perspective, I don't know that you have to rack before lagering, especially if it is only for a week or two. However, I would be concerned with oxygen being pulled into the headspace - as you cool the beer down, the gasses in the headspace will contract and create a partial vacuum. This can cause "suckback" of your airlock liquid as well as pulling in ambient air.

(note: if I was lagering for 4+ weeks, then I would start to get concerned about yeast off-flavors and would definitely rack)

 

[stmou984]

I made the northern brewer German Alt kit back in September. They recommend about 3 weeks lagering. I kept mine in a extra fridge at about 40*. I also used the German ale wyeast. Awesome results.

 

[stmou984]

Sorry I should have specified...I racked and lagered in secondary. The cold will clear out the beer but why not get it away from yuck in the first place

 

[Zippox]

JLem, how can I tell if this is happening or has happened?

 

[JLem]

JLem, how can I tell if this is happening or has happened?

Well, "suckback" will be obvious - your airlock liquid will be partially sucked out of the airlock I think the s-shaped airlocks might not do this as readily. I use the 3-piece airlocks and definitely have to worry about it whenever temps drop. Once the airlock liquid is gone/too low, air will start being sucked in. Not sure you can tell how much air gets sucked in, but just make sure you have the appropriate amount of liquid in the airlock.

 

[Keith66]

OK, I have a question that will make you cringe, or laugh depending. I brewed an altbier with White Labs altbier yeast a couple days ago. It was 104* outside and about 80* in my house. My house and carboy have both remained about 80* since then, and of course fermentation has been going like a bat out of hell. What kind of monster am I creating?

 

[WiseEyes]

one that tastes like rubbing alcohol

 

[Keith66]

So 5.5 gallons of brown, foamy crap.

 

[JLem]

So 5.5 gallons of brown, foamy crap.

Unfortunately, probably. High temps like that will generally cause massive amounts of fusel alcohols...though it is all strain-dependent and I have no idea how this strain reacts to such high temps.

Side note: search HBT for "swamp cooler" for an easy way to keep fermentation temps down in the summer

 

[Keith66]

White Labs says WLP036, which is what I used, attenuates at 65-72*, and likes to ferment at 65-69*. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and researching ways to salvage 5.5 gallons of "off" beer.

 

[Zippox]

Best of luck, man. No one wants to go through all that work to find out you have something undrinkable.

Speaking of altbier.. I ended up using the cheap muntons yeast for this one but I did follow the strict fermentation schedule/temperatures/cold secondary and I think this beer turned out just alright. Nothing spectacular. I regret not using a quality yeast. IF I were to try this style again I'd do it all the same except use one of the yeasts recommended earlier in this thread.

Live and learn I guess.

 

[zakleeright]

Back on the yeast issue, I have made a few Alt Biers (and stouts, Ryes, IPA's, etc) using S-05, and tasted true to style. I have done a few side-by-side tests by brewing 15 gallon batches and using three different yeasts, and as long as the yeast isn't a major flavor component, the S-05 is usually indistinguishable from the "authentic" yeast. (or nearly so)

I have a similar experiment with a Kolsch right now. Carboy "A" is on WL029, "B" is on WY2565, and "C" has S-05.
After fermenting for 10 days, I'm now easing all 3 down to lagering temps, -2F in morning, and another -1 in evening .(now 17 days in)

I fermented the S-05 at 62, and the other two at 57F (digital temp controllers held within +/- 1F).

I used identical starter/stir plates for the WL & WY, and simply hydrated the S-05 per Fermentis data sheet instructions.
All 3 carboys got a 60-second shot of pure O2 prior to pitching.

The WY had the most vigorous fermentation (only one requiring a blow-off tube), but ironically, the least attenuation.
The S-05 is currently at 1.009, WL at 1.012, WY at 1.018. (Used hydrometer, so no need for alcohol correction).

It is difficult to tell the S-05 from the WL at this point.Both are crisp and bright, allowing a bit of hops subtlety to come through, thought the WL does seem a bit more...complex? The WY is "rounder/softer" on the palette, but I attribute that to the higher sweetness/lower attenuation.

S-05 good.
Cheers

 

[crushingblackdoom]

So 5.5 gallons of brown, foamy crap.

I'm thinking the same. I just dumped 5 gals of ipa fermented at 75*F (accident! I assure you) using FAT 3rd gen pitch of wlp029. They're German yeast.

Holy undrinkable hot alcohol waste of effort!

My first dump. I even kept it around until after I took a Sensory Evaluation workshop on fermentation compounds in an attempt to pin down what all the awfulness truly was. Turns out the whole batch was all sorts of wrong.
Totally FUBAR
Couple that with a light lacto infection, it was a sad day, but at least that damn albatross is finally outta my brewery! Cue "Taps"....

But really, you never know with this stuff. If you can, keep it around and see what it becomes. You can maybe throw some bugs in it, or keep it as a "punishment" beer you force yourself to drink when you make big dumb brewing mistakes

 

[Keith66]

So 5.5 gallons of brown, foamy crap.

I opened up the primary last night to take a sample and see if it was worth racking. It was down to 1.015, and SOMEHOW tasted about like I think it should. I could taste the caramel malts and subtle hops, but no funky alcohol flavors (no rubbing alcohol or nail polish remover). It tasted like a 5-day-old altbier. So into the secondary it went. I'll let it settle out at about 68* (closet temp, no fridge yet), and post an update when I bottle.

 

[Keith66]

OK, I have a question that will make you cringe, or laugh depending. I brewed an altbier with White Labs altbier yeast a couple days ago. It was 104* outside and about 80* in my house. My house and carboy have both remained about 80* since then, and of course fermentation has been going like a bat out of hell. What kind of monster am I creating?

Follow-up: So I racked at 5 days and bottled after another 12. I haven't smelled or tasted anything like rubbing alcohol or nail polish remover as some said I might. It smells and tastes like it's supposed to, but maybe with an "off" flavor or aftertaste. Here's the thing: "Either I have a crappy sense of taste, or I'm making great beer," and I'm not sure which. Yeah, either way I win, but I'd really like to be able to tell if I'm getting off flavors. Guess I need to buy some Alaskan Amber (altbier) and compare. Anyone else got any ideas?

 

[artyusmc]

Follow-up: So I racked at 5 days and bottled after another 12. I haven't smelled or tasted anything like rubbing alcohol or nail polish remover as some said I might. It smells and tastes like it's supposed to, but maybe with an "off" flavor or aftertaste. Here's the thing: "Either I have a crappy sense of taste, or I'm making great beer," and I'm not sure which. Yeah, either way I win, but I'd really like to be able to tell if I'm getting off flavors. Guess I need to buy some Alaskan Amber (altbier) and compare. Anyone else got any ideas?

so how did it come out about do an Alt with S4 and another with notty

 

[Keith66]

so how did it come out about do an Alt with S4 and another with notty

Well, the bottles are going empty fairly quickly. It's not as caramelly as Alaskan Amber, but then that may not be a true altbier, don't know. Mine smells and tastes pretty good, definite German aroma and flavors, similar to Alaskan Amber, just with a lighter mouthfeel. I'd rather it be a little "thicker", but then AA isn't real chewy either. Bottom line: I like mine, and the bottles keep losing beer. I used a WL Altbier yeast, not sure how S4 or Notty would turn out. Worth a try.

 

[artyusmc]

my Alts are going right now

we will see
ill keep you posted

 

[Keith66]

my Alts are going right now

we will see
ill keep you posted

Please do. I don't have a fermentation fridge yet, so I'm really looking forward to Autumn so I can do some colder brewing.

 

[lucashtorres]

Hey guys,
I would like to share my situation with you and see what you think about it.
I've just made my first altbier. I've used a TechBrew yeast that is a similar to White Labs WLP036 because I couldn't find it. It has the same specifications, only changes temperature range (16C-20C / 60F-68F). I've tried to keep it at 16C (60F) but most of the time it was between 15C-16,5C (59F-61.7F). Its been eleven days on this temperature and on the last three days it had the same gravity (1.020). According to Beer Smith it was supposed to have a 1.014 FG. As this fridge isn't on a heated room I wasn't able to warm my carboy (I thought it could be because the temperature was too low for the yeast to work until 1.014). Then I've decided to lager it as if it was done fermenting.

How long do you think I should keep it there before bottling?
Thanks guys!