All things Trappist

[Silver_Is_Money]

I just rummaged up a 750 mL bottle of Het Anker Gouden Carolus Cuvée Van De Keizer Imperial Blond (Rood Label) 2013 that I recall was mighty good stuff back then. 10.0% ABV. How would this beer compare with a real Trappist Ale?

 

[Gregory T]

Thanks for sharing Gregory. I noticed you are doing an acid rest at 113F. I am torn about doing anything below 130F. Scotty has mentioned this as well. Do you see the flavor benefits in this style (tripel)? Does it bring out cloves as it is supposed to in hefeweizen? Thanks.

I do it purely for clarity. Enzyme beta glucanase ideal temp is 113°F to eat up the beta glucans that can cloud beer. Same with the protinease rest at 135°F. It is crystal clear. It’s a little darker than I’d like. I’m looking into PH for that

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for your reply. Sounds like a great tasting beer!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I took the plunge and ordered 'Date Syrup' today.

 

[Big Monk]

I just rummaged up a 750 mL bottle of Het Anker Gouden Carolus Cuvée Van De Keizer Imperial Blond (Rood Label) 2013 that I recall was mighty good stuff back then. 10.0% ABV. How would this beer compare with a real Trappist Ale?

It won’t.

 

[Paulaner]

I just rummaged up a 750 mL bottle of Het Anker Gouden Carolus Cuvée Van De Keizer Imperial Blond (Rood Label) 2013 that I recall was mighty good stuff back then. 10.0% ABV. How would this beer compare with a real Trappist Ale?

I don't brew any Belgium beers, but I have spent 12 years living on the border of Belgium and drank my fair share. Trappist Ale is a broad term, from what the monks drink light and easy to drink, to a blonde like Westvleteren where the hops are quite pronounced, dubbel like Achel where it is nice malty and balanced with the yeast esters, Westmalle Tripel who invented the style, to any of the Quads saying a beer is Trappist does not hold much weight now days with all of the wonderful beer you can taste in Belgium. Every time I see a bottle of Gouden Carolus I am turned off, but when I taste the beer I have never been let down.

 

[Stand]

For a Witbier (bittering addition only) do you find a difference between using a lot of noble hops with low AA vs. a small amount of a higher AA hop?

I just bought a bag of Merkur for general bittering, and I've been happy with the beers that have multiple additions, but I'm worried about using it as the single addition in place of Vanguard or Santiam (which I've been using for most things).

Thanks!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

As I've chosen Lallemand Abbaye yeast, and it is derived from WLP-500 and/or Wyeast 1214, should I pitch it at 64 degrees F., and set my fermentation refrigerator to 70 degrees F., seeing as my temperature probe will merely be taped to the outside surface of my fermentation vessel, and in the middle of the vessel the temperature may reach several degrees higher than 70 degrees? I want to highly limit the expression of such flavors as banana without totally eliminating them.

 

[Stand]

As I've chosen Lallemand Abbaye yeast, and it is derived from WLP-500 and/or Wyeast 1214, should I pitch it at 64 degrees F., and set my fermentation refrigerator to 70 degrees F., seeing as my temperature probe will merely be taped to the outside surface of my fermentation vessel, and in the middle of the vessel the temperature may reach several degrees higher than 70 degrees? I want to highly limit the expression of such flavors as banana without totally eliminating them.

During fermentation the churn will keep temperature fairly consistant, and if you've got insulation around your temperature probe it will be very close to the temperature at the center. John Blichmann did some testing on this awhile ago, and it was incredibly close.

@RPIScotty has made the point that temperature is only one lever of control for Belgian beers, so make sure you're looking at the other factors as well.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

During fermentation the churn will keep temperature fairly consistent, and if you've got insulation around your temperature probe it will be very close to the temperature at the center. John Blichmann did some testing on this awhile ago, and it was incredibly close.

Thanks, that's great news. I had been assuming that the center of the fermenter would potentially be 5 or more degrees higher in temperature than the sidewall. I will set my Inkbird fermentation temperature controllers upper limit to 74 degrees (+/- 1) instead of 70 degrees. That way, the refrigerator will cool the fermenter to 73 degrees every time the fermenter hits 75 degrees.

I'm fully aware that temperature is but one of the contributing factors.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

FWIW, I've upwardly revised my estimated invert sugar processing times/temp as follows based upon more data points to work from as derived from those who are actually doing this, and to better make it conform to the oven method:

For SRM ~= 45, hold the oven at 250 degrees F. for 147 minutes
For SRM ~= 90, hold the oven at 250 degrees F. for 194 minutes
For SRM ~= 180, hold the oven at 250 degrees F. for 235 minutes
For SRM ~= 240, hold the oven at 250 degrees F. for 253 minutes

As derived from this new equation:
SRM =-14.43379082 + 1.38234108*X - 0.013840899*X^2 + 0.00004883*X^3

Where X = minutes held in a preheated oven at 250 degrees F. after first achieving 250 degrees F. on the stove top.

Once again, YMMV

 

[Stand]

I did a batch of syrup last night, and it turned out great, but I am curious how it compares to the low/slow oven method.

Have you tried it with DAP? I might have to try it side by side with the method I have been using.

This took me about 30 minutes

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

This took me about 30 minutes

That looks great! What sort of sugar did you begin with, and what temperature did you try to maintain on the stove top? Did you leave it acidic, or neutralize it?

 

[Stand]

Here's what I did last night. Next time I'm probably going to reduce DAP to 1/2 tsp because it went that dark instantaneously when I poured it in. I'm not sure Dextrose is necessary, but it helps keep crystalization down especially for lighter syrups with shorter boils.

I left it acidic because it will help some with shelf-stability, and I can't see a convincing reason not to do it that way. I'm not sure how acidic my syrup is, but I can't imagine 1/2 tsp. of cream of tartar lowers the pH to a degree that it would impact beer. I could be convinced otherwise though.


Belgian Candi Syrup Recipe:
Ingredients:

4# White Sugar
1# Dextrose (Corn Sugar)
1 1/2 Cups Water
1/2 tsp. Cream of Tartar

1 Cup Water
1 Tbs. DME
1 tsp. Diammonium Phosphate


Put Sugar, Dextrose, Water and cream of tartar together in a pot and bring to 260 degrees. Hold between 260 and 275 for 20 minutes.

While sugar is heating dissolve 1 Tbs. of Dry Malt Extract and 1 tsp of Di-ammonium Phosphate to 1 cup of water and set aside.

After 20 minutes raise temperature between 290-300 and then SLOWLY dd water/DME/DAP solution to syrup to start the Maillard reactions and drop temperature (It should drop close to 240). Add additional water until temperature is 240.

Continue boiling slowly until desired color is reached and then add water to drop to 240 degrees again. Fills two quart mason jars.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Potassium Bitartrate (Cream Of Tartar) is way less acidic than the citric acid that many use (at about the same quantity). That's the darkest I've seen for so few minutes held at temperature. The combination of your higher temperature plus the added DME and DAP must have come into play here to darken it more rapidly.

 

[Stand]

I got most of the ideas for my process from this thread, and @SnickASaurusRex is much more conversant on the science: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/20-lb-of-sugar-and-a-jar-of-yeast-nutrient.114837/

You're correct about color. There is almost no color at all until you add the DME and the DAP. Bringing the temp up that high helps me get immediately to the correct water/sugar ratio, and makes the color happen faster. Another REALLY big bonus is that it won't make your house smell like ammonia.

If you want a lighter syrup I'd recommend making the full cup of water/DAP/DME solution and adding it little by little until you get to the right color. You can also continue to raise temperature to get the right color, but those two paths will make different flavors.

This process should be getting a range of flavors as your solution lowers temperature . . . at least that's my theory, but I doubt it's a huge difference. I've made this syrup in 6-7 different ways over the years, and this is my favorite because I don't get any bitterness at all.

I have phosphoric acid to adjust mash pH, so maybe I'll try that at some point instead of Cream of Tartar.

EDIT: My wife knows a lot of chemistry, and I asked her about calculating the pH of the syrup. When I told her what acid it was she told me weak acids suck and walked away. HA!

She did say something about buffering solutions and it depending on your water, but I'm leaving well enough alone.

 

[Kee]

If anyone has tried the Orval method of adding Brett in bottles I'd be really keen to hear something of the outcome!

So when I read about this in BLAM, I was sceptical that it could be that easy. But it is. I've never had an uninteresting batch by adding dregs from Orval bottles in the bottling bucket. Which is more than I can say about some of my other recipes.

BTW, I just found (and finished reading) this thread. With few exceptions, I only brew Belgian style beers. Thanks for such an interesting and informative thread!

 

[Gregory T]

So when I read about this in BLAM, I was sceptical that it could be that easy. But it is. I've never had an uninteresting batch by adding dregs from Orval bottles in the bottling bucket. Which is more than I can say about some of my other recipes.

BTW, I just found (and finished reading) this thread. With few exceptions, I only brew Belgian style beers. Thanks for such an interesting and informative thread!

I would be interested in this as well. I"m not sure about introducing Brett in my brewhouse, but I believe @RPIScotty mentioned bottling with about .01 left to final gravity. I would be very interested in this approach. How to compensate at priming to not over carb? This sounds like an effective way to drive oxygen out of beer at bottling

 

[Kee]

I would be interested in this as well. I"m not sure about introducing Brett in my brewhouse, but I believe @RPIScotty mentioned bottling with about .01 left to final gravity. I would be very interested in this approach. How to compensate at priming to not over carb? This sounds like an effective way to drive oxygen out of beer at bottling

The brett will add some carbonation. I don't have any formula for that, so I just add slightly less priming sugar, bottle in heavy bottles (Duvel style, Orval style) and do my due diligence by sampling the batch often. I like carbonation, so typically I may shoot for, say, 3.5 volumens (or even more), but with the brett I'll put enough priming sugar for 3.1 or so.

That's just spitballing it. There is that time that I had to refrigerate an entire batch and give each bottle 25 minutes in the freezer before opening, so caution is warrented.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

FWIW, I was perusing the 48 Oz. bottle of "Date Lady" brand organic "Date Syrup" that I bought on Amazon, and although it is packaged in Springfield, MO, the fine print states "A Product of Belgium". The ingredient list shows that it comes from only 100% organic dates. That it comes from Belgium means that it may be similar to (or perhaps even identical to) what is actually used in Belgian Candi Syrup.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Call it what you like but Quads (11%) (halved) are turning out nice. 11% with one placed on tart cherries. WY3787 is the bomb. Got another 9.5%ish fermenting w/zero temp control. It's the 3rd generation. Done after this.

 

[oceanic_brew]

Super long post but wanna get my ideas down and sorta sum this thread up for myself at least.

I’ve been away from this forum for some time and in the process of opening a Trappist inspired brewery.

Very pleased to read through this thread and to see that people are still working on the “candy syrup problem”

For my brewery I’ve been looking into making it in bulk. Like another user mentioned i too only went down the road of using an acid to invert the sugar and time/heat to get color. The resulting syrup had a burnt flavor that lasted into the final product.

I have not tried the DAP/DME method. I use D180 in my Dark Strong and from tasting it I would find it hard to conceive that it could be replicated, but I’m holding out hope that someone does and I’ll be watching here and updating with my success.

I am intrigued by some of Scotty’s comments on fermentation techniques and schedules. It is for certain from my research that the Trappist breweries do little to control temps but for the most extreme circumstances. So his method of insulating the ferment with a body of water makes sense. The yeast will not experience any temperature stressing from pushback from external sources.

My method thus far has been for a simpler grain bill preferring flavors from process, I use wl530 or wl550, Magnum for bittering and either of Styrian Goldings/Hallertau/saaz/tett for FO or 5-10min addition, 75 min rest at 148, to pitch at “regular pitching rates” about 64-66, aerate with a wine whisk attached to a drill keep it there for a day and then I force rise to 74-75 over about three days. After about a week I slowly reduce the temperature to about 68-70 and condition on the cake for another two weeks. I bottle condition about a 6 pack using just a sprinkle of EC-1118 yeast and keg condition or force carb the rest. The bottles are left at 70f or higher for a couple weeks.

I do not use any spice

My experience thus far has been ok. My Dark Strong is absolutely delicious and after trying a couple westy 12’s I’m happy to say I am close although more so trying to create my own product anyway.

However my triple, Dubbel, single, and an original beer that will just be a Trappist inspired flagship are all lacking something.

Here are some things I want to change by applying some of the comments here:

1) Possibly try turbinado sugar instead of table sugar, corn sugar in my single/dubble

2) ferment naturally in a tub of water

3) increase pitch rate/decrease aeration

4) move off of yeast cake at cessation of fermentation

5) package right away and let the conditioning and carbonation happen simultaneously in the bottle (this one is big if it’s doable since i’ll have ample bottle storage at the brewery)

The reason why I am leaning towards removing the beer from the yeast early is because I find my beers end up being much to clean for my liking. One of my triples was damn near a Stella and it sat the longest in conditioning.

So here is a theory I have and want to explore that is somewhat based on what I’ve learned from BLAM:

I would like to perfect my process on the sugar/mash/primary ferment side then soon as fermentation is done bottle and carb for two weeks but then immediately put the bottles in cellar conditions for a week

This would give me a total of 4 weeks on say the tripple and I could actually reduce this on the single.

What I am aiming for here is to “capture” some of the esters/phenolics before the beer is too cleaned up by the yeast cake.

I would love to hear some thoughts on this. I will do side by side comparisons of this new method and my old and see how it turns out. I’ll post back.

Thanks

 

[Miraculix]

Super long post but wanna get my ideas down and sorta sum this thread up for myself at least.

I’ve been away from this forum for some time and in the process of opening a Trappist inspired brewery.

Very pleased to read through this thread and to see that people are still working on the “candy syrup problem”

For my brewery I’ve been looking into making it in bulk. Like another user mentioned i too only went down the road of using an acid to invert the sugar and time/heat to get color. The resulting syrup had a burnt flavor that lasted into the final product.

I have not tried the DAP/DME method. I use D180 in my Dark Strong and from tasting it I would find it hard to conceive that it could be replicated, but I’m holding out hope that someone does and I’ll be watching here and updating with my success.

I am intrigued by some of Scotty’s comments on fermentation techniques and schedules. It is for certain from my research that the Trappist breweries do little to control temps but for the most extreme circumstances. So his method of insulating the ferment with a body of water makes sense. The yeast will not experience any temperature stressing from pushback from external sources.

My method thus far has been for a simpler grain bill preferring flavors from process, I use wl530 or wl550, Magnum for bittering and either of Styrian Goldings/Hallertau/saaz/tett for FO or 5-10min addition, 75 min rest at 148, to pitch at “regular pitching rates” about 64-66, aerate with a wine whisk attached to a drill keep it there for a day and then I force rise to 74-75 over about three days. After about a week I slowly reduce the temperature to about 68-70 and condition on the cake for another two weeks. I bottle condition about a 6 pack using just a sprinkle of EC-1118 yeast and keg condition or force carb the rest. The bottles are left at 70f or higher for a couple weeks.

I do not use any spice

My experience thus far has been ok. My Dark Strong is absolutely delicious and after trying a couple westy 12’s I’m happy to say I am close although more so trying to create my own product anyway.

However my triple, Dubbel, single, and an original beer that will just be a Trappist inspired flagship are all lacking something.

Here are some things I want to change by applying some of the comments here:

1) Possibly try turbinado sugar instead of table sugar, corn sugar in my single/dubble

2) ferment naturally in a tub of water

3) increase pitch rate/decrease aeration

4) move off of yeast cake at cessation of fermentation

5) package right away and let the conditioning and carbonation happen simultaneously in the bottle (this one is big if it’s doable since i’ll have ample bottle storage at the brewery)

The reason why I am leaning towards removing the beer from the yeast early is because I find my beers end up being much to clean for my liking. One of my triples was damn near a Stella and it sat the longest in conditioning.

So here is a theory I have and want to explore that is somewhat based on what I’ve learned from BLAM:

I would like to perfect my process on the sugar/mash/primary ferment side then soon as fermentation is done bottle and carb for two weeks but then immediately put the bottles in cellar conditions for a week

This would give me a total of 4 weeks on say the tripple and I could actually reduce this on the single.

What I am aiming for here is to “capture” some of the esters/phenolics before the beer is too cleaned up by the yeast cake.

I would love to hear some thoughts on this. I will do side by side comparisons of this new method and my old and see how it turns out. I’ll post back.

Thanks

I can just contribute what I read about English ales. The method of moving the beer off the cake asap is a widespread method here so I guess it should work for Belgians as well!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Like another user mentioned i too only went down the road of using an acid to invert the sugar and time/heat to get color. The resulting syrup had a burnt flavor that lasted into the final product.

Do you recall the details of the time/temperature profile for the invert that tasted burnt?

 

[Kee]

I have not tried the DAP/DME method. I use D180 in my Dark Strong and from tasting it I would find it hard to conceive that it could be replicated, but I’m holding out hope that someone does and I’ll be watching here and updating with my success.

Here in Colombia there is a syrup called quemado de panela. It's cheap, and out of the bottle approximates the taste, color and consistency of D-180. I've brewed quite a few batches with it, and can almost (but not quite) convince myself that it's a replacement for D-180. I still load up my suitcase with D-180 every trip back to the States.

 

[Stand]

What I am aiming for here is to “capture” some of the esters/phenolics before the beer is too cleaned up by the yeast cake.

I hope this isn't a stupid comment, but if you've got a problem with the Belgian character cleaning up, why not just increase fermentation temperature or lower pitch rates to get more character? Or use something in your process that will accentuate those characters? I've used a small amount of Centennial or Mandarina Bavaria in my Tripels, but that's just me

I'm also sort of curious why you're using a different yeast in the bottle? It's been awhile since I read BLAM, but I thought for the most part that they used the same yeast throughout the process?

Cheers!

 

[Vale71]

What I am aiming for here is to “capture” some of the esters/phenolics before the beer is too cleaned up by the yeast cake.

Don't worry, no "cleaning up by the yeast cake" has ever or will ever take place. The only yeast still active is that which is still in suspension and you will carry it along no matter how many times you transfer, unless you filter or centrifuge of course.

 

[mediant]

The reason why I am leaning towards removing the beer from the yeast early is because I find my beers end up being much to clean for my liking.

What I am aiming for here is to “capture” some of the esters/phenolics before the beer is too cleaned up by the yeast cake.

I noticed the same phenomena, and do the same when brewing yeast-driven styles, in addition to cold crashing to reduce the cell count. Yeast in the cake have finished their fermentation job, and die off (undergo autolysis), releasing ester hydrolyzing enzymes, e.g. IAH1.

This is also a reason to use a different, more stable strain for bottle re-fermentation, e.g. lager (although data on lager yeast stability is contradictory) or specialized bottle conditioning strains.

In S. cerevisiae, for example, it has been shown that the balance between ester-synthesizing enzymes and esterases, such as Iah1p (also known as Est2p), is important for the net rate of ester accumulation (27-30). Residual esterase activity in finalized beer may even be responsible for the decrease in ester concentration that often occurs during storage. It has been suggested that ester hydrolysis occurs mainly as a consequence of yeast autolysis followed by the liberation of certain esterases in the medium (52).

 

[oceanic_brew]

I can just contribute what I read about English ales. The method of moving the beer off the cake asap is a widespread method here so I guess it should work for Belgians as well!

Yes the English styles were exactly where I learned about “capturing” yeast derived flavors in the process. It was following a Fullers fermentation schedule where (using 1968) you pitch at 64, ramp to 68 till fermentation is nearly complete then with a few gravity points left force the ferment down to 62 I believe to finish.

If works, I make delicious Dark Milds grain to glass in about 6 days, it’s a really whacky brewing method to me.

This gets me to thinking, and I’ll respond to a couple posts here, that it’s (as has been iterated a zillion times) leftover macrobrewing process to get the beer off the yeast and into “secondary”. Likely what I’m picking up on from BLAM. Dealing with actual real amounts hydrostatic pressure. So it’s possible that rather than getting it off the yeast cake (like Scotty mentioned)
It’s the ramping down of temperatures after fermentation is complete that may capture some of the flavors.

If I remember correctly, Westmalle ferments for a much shorter period of time than is usually suggested for Belgians in Homebrewing. However I believe they then centrifuge, package with yeast from high krausen, and “cellar” (maybe some warm conditioning in there)

To answer another post, restraining the fermentation through the lag and growth phase and therefor reducing the risk of higher alcohol production is the objective. But you are absolutely right that it is possibly the culprit. The flavors I am after are fermentation process derived but I may want to start exploring small additions of spice/sweet orange peel to compliment the phenols/esters.


Think I’ll read Yeast again when I’m done with Water.

 

[Bassman2003]

This is a great conversation and what the true spirit of brewing is. Always searching, bending, working etc... to make something better.

I think it is great practice to pick some styles one likes to brew and associate a single yeast strain to that style. Brew them over and over and learn how to get the best out of your system. It is how we have all of these landmark beers in Europe as they have had their yeast going for ages and have bent it to their liking. It is part of becoming a great brewer imho.