All things Trappist

[ThirstyPawsHB]

This is a great conversation and what the true spirit of brewing is. Always searching, bending, working etc... to make something better.

I think it is great practice to pick some styles one likes to brew and associate a single yeast strain to that style. Brew them over and over and learn how to get the best out of your system. It is how we have all of these landmark beers in Europe as they have had their yeast going for ages and have bent it to their liking. It is part of becoming a great brewer imho.

Some excellent words. Traditionally, I'd get bored easy and change things up. Ergo felt everything I brewed was a C or B with the happy accident A. Now, I feel more like your words. Pick a few and brew over and over to fine tune your art.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thank you. I think if one can rotate styles but repeat the same yeasts each time you brew that style you can have diversity as well as really learning the strains. This is why I am trying out a move to the Anvil Foundry brewing setup. I have been brewing for over 15 years with a lot of equipment changes. This is a fun part of the hobby for me but I am at a point where I want the equipment to remain constant and be able to focus on technique and recipe.

As consumers, we see the beer market as incredibly diverse but in reality, at a brewery level, things are pretty monotonous. When you visit Belgium or Germany there are so many breweries and so many different beers. Most all of these breweries offer 1-5 beers and are brewing time tested recipes and yeasts that define their product. We often bounce around trying everything where they perfect what they have been using forever. No right or wrong but something I have noticed over the years. I can be some pressure to measure up or it can be fun.

 

[oceanic_brew]

This is where the worlds of Trappist beer and Trappist Ideology collide.

Religious lifestyle by definition means that you are confronting a world of chaos and through your actions are trying to retain some permanence in the order of things, or to exercise/become one with the substrate of the structure of being.

I see this in the Trappist beers. There is a magnificent amount of order here, and years of practice, however it is about confining the chaos that is that crazy wild yeast while still realizing that you are subservient to it.

It’s really the reason the beers are of another world and goes a long way towards understanding how to make them.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Yes the English styles were exactly where I learned about “capturing” yeast derived flavors in the process. It was following a Fullers fermentation schedule where (using 1968) you pitch at 64, ramp to 68 till fermentation is nearly complete then with a few gravity points left force the ferment down to 62 I believe to finish.

If works, I make delicious Dark Milds grain to glass in about 6 days, it’s a really whacky brewing method to me.

Probably worth a read of this thread if you haven't seen it : https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...emps-and-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts.221817/

 

[oceanic_brew]

Probably worth a read of this thread if you haven't seen it : https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...emps-and-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts.221817/

Thanks. I believe I got mostly through it a couple years ago.

 

[Stand]

Probably worth a read of this thread if you haven't seen it : https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...emps-and-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts.221817/

I'm still working my way through the thread, but I've always tried to drive attenuation on my Belgian beers by ramping temp at end of fermentation. I haven't tried that technique of lowering temp at the end, but it seems like it would lead to the yeast dropping out early. Not something I've ever tried, but it's worth an experiment with one of the less finicky Belgian strains I suppose. I have no idea.

 

[oceanic_brew]

I'm still working my way through the thread, but I've always tried to drive attenuation on my Belgian beers by ramping temp at end of fermentation. I haven't tried that technique of lowering temp at the end, but it seems like it would lead to the yeast dropping out early. Not something I've ever tried, but it's worth an experiment with one of the less finicky Belgian strains I suppose. I have no idea.

I definitely would not lower the temp until well after fermentation is complete. So in this sense the Fullers method isn’t comparable where they are intentionally harnessing the ferment with gravity points still left.

I am just curious to experiment in getting the beer to cellar conditions (12c) not long after fermentation is complete to see what that produces as I’ve seen some evidence that a Trappist brewery does that very thing.

 

[oceanic_brew]

If I remember correctly one brewery centrifuges a few days after fermentation has completed and then re-yeasts and packages.

Most be something to getting that yeast outta there that perhaps I’ve already slightly achieved by helping flocculation.

everything else in my process will need to be spot on to achieve this. I would not try this without ensuring there was nothing rough around the edges that had to be mellowed.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I definitely would not lower the temp until well after fermentation is complete. So in this sense the Fullers method isn’t comparable where they are intentionally harnessing the ferment with gravity points still left.

If you do that, the yeast will clean up and you'll get less yeast character. It's not so much a Fullers thing as a fairly general British approach - pitch quite cool (15-16°C), let it free-rise (at homebrew scale this may need a little external heat) to say 20°C at high krausen, then back down to 17-18°C to complete fermentation, then condition at cellar temperature.

There's some variations on that - some like Morland go as high as 24°C - but that's the general idea. Whilst going warmer encourages esters, too long at high temps encourages the yeast to clean them up.

It's a bit different when you're packaging into cask rather than bottle, bottle conditioning is fairly rare in the UK as retailers hate it although some brewers do it for one premium bottle as a nod to CAMRA.

 

[isomerization]

If you do that, the yeast will clean up and you'll get less yeast character. It's not so much a Fullers thing as a fairly general British approach - pitch quite cool (15-16°C), let it free-rise (at homebrew scale this may need a little external heat) to say 20°C at high krausen, then back down to 17-18°C to complete fermentation, then condition at cellar temperature.

There's some variations on that - some like Morland go as high as 24°C - but that's the general idea. Whilst going warmer encourages esters, too long at high temps encourages the yeast to clean them up.

It's a bit different when you're packaging into cask rather than bottle, bottle conditioning is fairly rare in the UK as retailers hate it although some brewers do it for one premium bottle as a nod to CAMRA.

Just for my own edification, you aren’t suggesting that Belgian yeasts be driven through the same process, correct?

Seems reasonable to me that English yeasts would handle the temp swings, while Belgian yeasts would just go to sleep and quit.

 

[Stand]

Just for my own edification, you aren’t suggesting that Belgian yeasts be driven through the same process, correct?

Seems reasonable to me that English yeasts would handle the temp swings, while Belgian yeasts would just go to sleep and quit.

This is my thinking as well. High attenuation is such a vital part of the Belgian beers I make, and, although Westmalle strain that I mostly use isn't the Dupont strain, the last thing I want is an under-attenuated beer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Just for my own edification, you aren’t suggesting that Belgian yeasts be driven through the same process, correct?

You can't really generalise about "Belgian yeasts" like that, they're way too diverse. So I was more "this is how it's generally done in Britain, and you may want to let that influence how you treat your Belgian yeasts" - after all, there's a lot of British influence in Belgian brewing, from Orval to de la Senne. In fact I was drinking cask-conditioned Belgian beer only this week, you don't get more British-influenced than that!

So it's horses for courses - some Belgian beers look to maximise esters etc by turning up the thermostat and not worrying too much about what happens afterwards, others take a more British approach of going for some esters etc and then taking steps to stop the yeast cleaning them up.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

FWIW, I was perusing the 48 Oz. bottle of "Date Lady" brand organic "Date Syrup" that I bought on Amazon, and although it is packaged in Springfield, MO, the fine print states "A Product of Belgium". The ingredient list shows that it comes from only 100% organic dates. That it comes from Belgium means that it may be similar to (or perhaps even identical to) what is actually used in Belgian Candi Syrup.

Silver...did you ever try your Date Syrup? I was at the grocery store today and a bottle jumped in my cart ("D'VASH Date Nectar, "100% Organic California Dates" this: https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Nectar-Non-GMO-Gluten-California/dp/B07H1YMXQW). I am curious how much one would use for a 5 gal batch (4 oz? 8oz? 16oz?) and what type of flavors it would impart.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Silver...did you ever try your Date Syrup? I was at the grocery store today and a bottle jumped in my cart ("D'VASH Date Nectar, "100% Organic California Dates" this: https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Nectar-Non-GMO-Gluten-California/dp/B07H1YMXQW). I am curious how much one would use for a 5 gal batch (4 oz? 8oz? 16oz?) and what type of flavors it would impart.

Not yet. When you're older and retired like me things like plans and intentions sometimes move slowly. I was thinking along the lines of 4 ounces in a 6.5 gallon yielding batch.

 

[Jayjay1976]

This entire thread is liquid gold to us belgian beer lovers.

 

[filthyastronaut]

Personally I'd ditch any rest lower than beta and just perform 2 beta rests, a higher alpha, and a mashout:

Beta 1 - 145-147 F for 20 minutes
Beta 2 - 148-149 F for 10 minutes
Alpha - 162 F for 30 minutes
Mashout - 171-172 F for 10-15 minutes

This profile is pretty similar to what I've been doing lately, except the mashout is part of a "dunk sparge" using a grain bag, and rests while the "first wort" is heating. I'm unsure of how separating the liquor would affect the results.

I don't do an alpha rest, though. From what I've learned in school, the action of alpha will be mostly redundant after that long of a beta rest. In fact, for maximum fermentability, it would be most beneficial if it were possible to do an alpha rest first because it almost indiscriminately chops up starches into a variety of different saccharides, and breaks up branched glucose chains, leaving them accessible for action by beta amylase, which will only produce maltose. That being said, it seems to me that the beta rest for 30 minutes will convert almost completely, only leaving behind the branches of glucose units, and the alpha rest would at best make the wort slightly more fermentable by braking up those branches. So if you are after some residual body in a highly fermentable beer, I think you are best served leaving the alpha rest out of it.

 

[couchsending]

The alpha rest has other benefits other than just fermentability. Mouthfeel and foam would be the most important.

 

[filthyastronaut]

The alpha rest has other benefits other than just fermentability. Mouthfeel and foam would be the most important.

Mouthfeel from non-fermentable saccharides, but like I said the 30 min. beta rest would make it so the alpha has barely anything to work on, and if anything it would just produce more fermentables. Not sure how an alpha rest improves foam, too, unless we're talking about other enzymes that would also be active at that temperature.

 

[couchsending]

Mouthfeel from non-fermentable saccharides, but like I said the 30 min. beta rest would make it so the alpha has barely anything to work on, and if anything it would just produce more fermentables. Not sure how an alpha rest improves foam, too, unless we're talking about other enzymes that would also be active at that temperature.

Nope mouthfeel and foam from glycoprotein formation. Nothing to do with enzymes.

 

[filthyastronaut]

Nope mouthfeel and foam from glycoprotein formation. Nothing to do with enzymes.

Is there a benefit of doing a separate rest around 160 vs. 170 for mashout for glycoproteins? If so, then fair enough. I would still argue that the enzymatic benefit is dubious.

EDIT: I'll be giving a glycoprotein rest a go today with a Dubbel.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

A bit more touristy content than real beer content, but I came across this series of two guys biking around Belgium to hit the 6 Trappist breweries.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUZckUA2Sk-qL_K14CcUTHLuLvNdkPv4p

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks. Great to see all of the abbeys. Special places.

 

[Stand]

I'm curious if anyone can recommend a recipe for something Belgian, dark, and sessionable? I keep a Trappist Single on tap year-round, but I want to make something in the 5% range for winter. I have WLP530 and WLP500 in the freezer. Any advice?

 

[filthyastronaut]

I'm curious if anyone can recommend a recipe for something Belgian, dark, and sessionable? I keep a Trappist Single on tap year-round, but I want to make something in the 5% range for winter. I have WLP530 and WLP500 in the freezer. Any advice?

I'm thinking take some of the pale malt in your Single recipe and replace it with an adjunct to add body, maybe Rye, and some Caramunich and Special B. Some Munich II might be good too.

 

[Stand]

I use a home-made Golden candi syrup for 6.3% of my grain-bill on my Trappist Single, so replacing that with D-90 or D-180 would be easy if I'm just adjusting that recipe.

Munich or Rye would also work great I'm sure. I just want something maltier and quaffable. I've been looking at the Munich Dunkel recipes for inspiration as well as a template to work around in beersmith. If I do I'll use munich and D-90 or D-180 are for sure.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Just reading back through this thread. Lots of great info and a thanks to @RPIScotty!

I just brewed a Trappist Single today. I had questions about my ferm schedule, but I think this thread mostly answered them. I chilled to 64F, pitched the yeast, and I moved the fermenter to a cool basement bathroom (64F to 65F range).

The recipe was:

• 9 lbs (91.1%) Pilsner (Floor Malted Bohemian) Weyermann
• 6 oz (3.8%) Aromatic Malt Dingmans
• 0.8 oz Northern Brewer - German (9.3%) 26.5 IBU - 60 min
• 0.75 Hersbrucker - German (2.3%) 4.1 IBU - 20 min
• 0.75 Hersbrucker - German (2.3%) 2.0 IBU - 5 min
• 8 oz Granulated Cane Sugar - 60 min
• 1 pkg Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity (24 oz starter)

I just did a single temp mash (with a mash out) to keep it easy for this go (target was 150F, came in a 153F, dropped down to 151F via stirring over 5 mins). Gravity came in at 1.052 with calculated IBUs of 32.6, SRM of 4.1.

I am planning to brew a second batch of the Dubbel I brewed back in April with a few tweaks. I would like to brew a Triple, but might instead brew a few batches of Single to play with variables. I have a soft spot for 5% to 6% beers.

 

[Bassman2003]

I brewed a tripel end of summer and pitched at 64F and had my wine fridge set to 64. I use a Tilt inside my fermenter which shows a temperature readout. I was surprised to see the temp was already at 71 deg the next morning! So keeping 64 inside the liquid is challenging with Belgian yeast. The beer had some band-aid flavor that conditioned out so the next time I am going to pitch cooler and set the wine fridge lower in the early stages of fermentation.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I brewed a tripel end of summer and pitched at 64F and had my wine fridge set to 64. I use a Tilt inside my fermenter which shows a temperature readout. I was surprised to see the temp was already at 71 deg the next morning! So keeping 64 inside the liquid is challenging with Belgian yeast. The beer had some band-aid flavor that conditioned out so the next time I am going to pitch cooler and set the wine fridge lower in the early stages of fermentation.

What yeast were you using here?

 

[Bassman2003]

I used the Omega Belgian W.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I use a Tilt inside my fermenter which shows a temperature readout.

It will be hard for me to justify the price (and the DIY option looked a bit challenging for me) but I could really see the value in being able to monitor fermentation temps and gravity. A Tilt might be my next splurge item.