All NEIPA recipes taste the same

[micraftbeer]

I'll chime in with my NEIPA experiences. Continuing with the theme here, I think if your hops are all in the "fruity" family, swapping one for another probably isn't going to be significant. For me, that's perfectly fine, because that's the flavor I'm going for. Instead, I've worked on my NEIPAs with the following. Palate-dependent of course, so YMMV.

1. Used flaked wheat instead of flaked oats. Didn't like it. I found the oats to me smoother and less intrusive on flavor.

2. I switched from Briess Brewer's 2-row to Maris Otter. This little bit of more flavorful base malt made a really nice contribution in my opinion.

3. I've played around with ABV. I thought I was really liking them around 4.5%, found them more easy-drinking and enjoyable. Last batch made me think it was a bit too watery, so I'm now targeting just over 5%.

4. At first I had no bittering hops at 60 min. I found it lacked a little bit of character, so I added in a dash of FWH and 60 minute hops to give it a touch more edge.

5. I've started playing with water profile. I found my Sulfate:Chloride ratio was a bit to edgy. So now I'm softening it.

 

[RyPA]

I'm curious about your listed mash pH of 5.2 with no listed acid additions. While the hopping is a little light, it's not by much. However, hops can come across a little flabby with a high overall wort pH.

I've also done some split batch experimentation on fermentation temperatures on NEIPA and found extreme hop differences between 65 and 70F ferments. The latter of which had much more muted aroma and flavor. You'll have a better beery summer if you can get yourself an Inkbird and a small fridge.

Yeah, I verify with a pH meter, though, I recently learned that the pH changes over the course of the mash.. early on I was adding baking soda early and likely ending up in the 6's. I since learned to check ph mid-way or towards the end/after.

Looking at those recipe titles if there's an issue it seems pretty clear: all three employ Citra - which seriously wants to be the soloist in the hop choir.

I love Citra - one of my neipas uses Chinook for 60 minute IBUs and then pounds the Citra from 5 minutes to FO to WP through dry hop - and I love it! But if one is brewing neipas that seem to all be repeats and they're all using Citra I'd say try leaving out the Citra

Cheers!

Yeah, citra has always been a staple for me but I am going to switch to something else. I already began backing off of Galaxy.. I'll likely use up what I have left and not buy more.

In addition to the "Citra soloist" comments, there's a few observations I'd make.

Firstly, your FG seems rather on the low side. 1.011-13 is pretty dry for a NEIPA, even at relatively low ABVs. For a 6% beer I typically shoot around 1.016-1.018, the residual sweetness really helps make fruit flavours more pronounced. My personal approach is to mash NEIPAs quite hot and use golden naked oats to boost the unfermentable sugars.

Your whirlpool rates seem very low. 2.5-3oz for a 6 gallon fermenter volume is only about 3g/L. I've currently got an English IPA in the fermenter which was whirlpooled at 5g/L. The last NEIPA I brewed was 8g/L all cryo and to be honest I think it could have done with more like 10. My own process is 20 minutes at 75°C which has produced good results. I generally find that gram for gram I get significantly more flavour (as opposed to aroma) out of the whirlpool; playing around with similar beers but shifting hops between whirlpool and DH, I've actually found more fruit forward flavours coming out of a big whirlpool and no DH at all versus a small whirlpool and a big DH.

Dry hopping rates seem fine, though I'd question the merits of a high krausen dry hop outside of using yeasts with particularly pronounced beta-glucosidase activity. These days I only bother with Kolsh which has become my go-to for NEIPA. Also, are you dry hopping cold or warm? Dumping any trub? I've found I have significantly less issue with hop burn or creep if I dump trub and crash down below 12°C when dry hopping, especially with a few PSI of pressure.

That may be my issue, I too like a bit of sweetness. I will need mash a little hotter.

Regarding WP hops, that is definitely something I need to try. My current batch (Amarillo/Citra/Nectaron) looks like a NEIPA, but it hardly tastes like one.

Interesting idea regarding only WP and no DH, that would definitely be welcome in the no-o2 department.

For this batch I dry hopped @ high kraussen and then dry hopped cold - as I put the keg in the fridge & put it on co2, I threw in a few oz's. I've been doing this for a bit , I remember reading that Scott Janish reported that dry hopping is more efficient cold (don't quote me).

I'll chime in with my NEIPA experiences. Continuing with the theme here, I think if your hops are all in the "fruity" family, swapping one for another probably isn't going to be significant. For me, that's perfectly fine, because that's the flavor I'm going for. Instead, I've worked on my NEIPAs with the following. Palate-dependent of course, so YMMV.

1. Used flaked wheat instead of flaked oats. Didn't like it. I found the oats to me smoother and less intrusive on flavor.

2. I switched from Briess Brewer's 2-row to Maris Otter. This little bit of more flavorful base malt made a really nice contribution in my opinion.

3. I've played around with ABV. I thought I was really liking them around 4.5%, found them more easy-drinking and enjoyable. Last batch made me think it was a bit too watery, so I'm now targeting just over 5%.

4. At first I had no bittering hops at 60 min. I found it lacked a little bit of character, so I added in a dash of FWH and 60 minute hops to give it a touch more edge.

5. I've started playing with water profile. I found my Sulfate:Chloride ratio was a bit to edgy. So now I'm softening it.

1 - I've been using white wheat malt and on occasion I'll throw in some rolled oats. I like the mouthfeel and color, not sure how this impacts flavor.
3 - I personally like lower ABV session NEIPA's, I agree finding that sweet spot may be key, 5-5.5% ABV
4. Yeah I've experimented with adding some columbus as a FWH or at 60, not really noticeable but maybe my taste buds arent what they used to be. After having COVID I feel like nothing is like it used to be.
5 - I always use salts since I use 100% RO, not sure if it makes a difference.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Certain hops claims to have notes of pineapple, peach, stonefruit, etc. , but I do not get that experience. Is it my process, or are my 43 year old taste buds losing it?

I don't think you're losing it, but before I assail you with my decades of brewing "knowledge," I feel like I should disclose some of my biases so that you know where I'm coming from. If you're not interested in that, jump down to the third paragraph.

Don't take advice on NEIPAs from me, I've never brewed one and I have very little experience with them, they just don't appeal to me as a style. Please understand, I'm not knocking them! It's a style that brings joy to a lot of people (more joy is always better) and I'm in awe of the technical prowess that is needed to brew this style. I think they're great, but I don't brew them so I don't drink them.

With that out of the way, here's what I have to say. As someone that has brewed for three decades, I think contemporary hop descriptions have become laughably useless. Listen, I understand that as our knowledge grows so, too, must our language grow to accommodate that knowledge and allow us the ability to discriminate between ever more subtle concepts, but things are getting a bit silly.

It's worth coming up for air from time to time and thinking critically about our more complex language. When we start using descriptors like "lychee," "mango," kiwi," "passionfruit," etc. are we actually transmitting data by using those terms? Each of those fruits are unique, but it's fair to say that within the larger universe of fruits, they're clustered in a neighborhood of fruits that are noteworthy for their sweetness rather than their acidic or aromatic content. Within the context of a contemporary IPA that uses at least three, often many more, hop strains are these subtle differences noticeable? I'd ask are they even worth noting?

As a brewer, I'd emphatically answer, "Nope." If I were a hop farmer, I'd say, "But mine also has plucky hints of dragonfruit!!!!!"

Gone are the days when the emergence of a new hop variety from the glacial USDA program really was big news. Now that the farmers are running their own breeding programs (more power to them!), each season sees a few new hops and those farmers have a lot of money riding on those acres, so their marketing departments keep ratcheting up the language each season. Unfortunately, that has left a lot of homebrewers dejectedly staring at their pints wondering, "Where is the pineapple? The cotton candy? The lychee? The tangerine? The grapefruit? The blood orange? The dank? I was supposed to be teased by subtle notes of kiwano...and I don't even know what the hell that is!"

Again, I think we need to come up for air. For the most part, hops taste like hops. Sure, there are differences between Hallertau and Saaz, Cascades and Amarillo, and HBCXXX and HBCYYY. At the end of the day, though, they're hops used in a very complex system that starts way, way, way before we even design our grists, water, hop bills, and processes. We like to kid ourselves that we have a lot of control in our breweries. That's bollocks, the bulk of the work that defines our beers was done in the fields and in the maltsters and the oasts...and is largely compromised by the logistics train that results in those products winding up in our Vittles Vaults and freezers.

So, is your failure to detect "naughty notes of lemon grass" proof that you're losing it? Absolutely not!

Like me, my suggestion to your problem is boring. Pick a generic grist, then pick a hop bill that you like and brew it relentlessly, making single adjustments along the way, until you slowly have that grist and hop bill exactly right.

It's a lot more fun chasing "it" hops, I'll concede. But there are no silver bullets, no magic hops, no chemistry-defying yeast strains in brewing. There's only slow, dogged repetition and incremental progress.

I hope you found this useful.

Edit: Also, I like to keep my freezer as empty as possible (by homebrewer standards). If I find a pound of hops that I like, I want to be able to turn around and buy a lot more of that hop. Not all crops are the same, not by a long shot, and pellet hops keep for years if stored in the freezer under vacuum.

 

[madscientist451]

I honestly don’t like what thiolized yeast does to beer.

Which one did you try, is one better than the others? What hops did you use with it?

 

[AlexKay]

Which one did you try, is one better than the others? What hops did you use with it?

Cosmic Punch with Strata and Citra
Helio Gazer with BRU-1 and Harlequin, plus Saaz in the mash and phantasm powder in the hop stand

Those are the only times I've brewed them myself. With the second one (Hello Gazer), the thiols (!) seemed to come out more. I've had a couple of others brewed by people in my club, and one from a commercial brewery. My main complaint is that they all seem to have that vaguely tropical-fruity sorta-Citra-ish taste to them.

 

[Bobby_M]

Thiols are a one trick pony in my opinion. I can recognize it from a mile away. The aroma is strong and pleasant but it creates a dank over ripe stone fruit thing in the flavor that I can't drink more than a few ounces of.

 

[RyPA]

@Bramling Cross Good to hear that it's not just me/my taste buds, and now that you say that, I remember one of my buddies at work who I gave a homebrew beer to joked about the same thing -- "hop companies claiming certain variants have notes of stone fruit, apricot, dragon fruit, overripe peach, etc. I get none of that in the taste" It's pretty hilarious but at the same time smart to market this way, as they got me with it. I ideally want to find a good hop combo (or single hop) to make a perfect house NEIPA -- one of my kegs always has a NEIPA in it. If anyone has recommendations for a sold juicy NEIPA recipe (on the sweeter side), I'll take it. Regarding hops in the freezer, I usually buy around 2-2.5 lbs. at a time from Yakima Valley, to take advantage of the single $9.99 shipping fee. I vacuum seal individual pouches of 2oz and freeze them so I have a good variety of hops available at any given time, same with a few pouches of dry yeast in the fridge -- I did this so I can brew whenever I want without having to order stuff and wait.

 

[hout17]

Maybe you are lucky that you can't necessarily tell. I can definitely tell the difference when different hops are used. I'm very sensitive to different hops, and some I absolutely do not like.

 

[hout17]

Yeah, I verify with a pH meter, though, I recently learned that the pH changes over the course of the mash.. early on I was adding baking soda early and likely ending up in the 6's. I since learned to check ph mid-way or towards the end/after.

Yes, mash pH changes throughout the mashing process, but most of the conversion is done in the first ~20 minutes or so. John Palmer in HTB 4e suggests taking a sample of mash pH 5-10 minutes into the mash (pg. 341) as we generally care about mash pH during conversion.

It's better to check pH and make adjustments from the data for the next brew. Mash pH generally drops over the course of the mash, but yeah, if you are adding a crap ton of baking soda, then I would guess it's going to go up.

 

[RyPA]

My current NEIPA keg just kicked so I need to begin recipe planning. Can anyone recommend a solid NEIPA hop schedule that I can try, that will not taste like the typical citra/galaxy batch (as all my batches taste)? I will be using Verdant IPA yeast.

 

[AlexKay]

My current NEIPA keg just kicked so I need to begin recipe planning. Can anyone recommend a solid NEIPA hop schedule that I can try, that will not taste like the typical citra/galaxy batch (as all my batches taste)? I will be using Verdant IPA yeast.

Here’s my recipe for a 2.5-gallon batch of double IPA; obviously you’d want something less alcoholic and less bitter for the NE version. But the hop character is excellent:

RO water, Ca 140, SO4 75, Cl 200

3.6 lb. Pale Ale Malt (~2.5L)
3.6 lb. Vienna (~4L)
0.8 lb. flaked barley
0.7 lb. flaked oats (I was going to use all barley, but ran out)
0.3 lb. honey malt

OG 1.090/FG 1.010

single-infusion mash @ 148 F, 60 minutes

60-minute boil:
8 g Magnum (15.4% AA) @ 60 min.
12 g Elani/YQH-1320 (8.8% AA) @ 20 min.
10 g Nelson Sauvin (12.2% AA) @ 20 min.
10 g Cashmere LUPOMAX (13.5% AA) @ 20 min.
12 g Elani/YQH-1320 (8.8% AA) @ 5 min.
10 g Nelson Sauvin (12.2% AA) @ 5 min.
10 g Cashmere LUPOMAX (13.5% AA) @ 5 min.
12 g Elani/YQH-1320 (8.8% AA) hop stand @ 160 F for 10 min.
10 g Nelson Sauvin (12.2% AA) hop stand @ 160 F for 10 min.
10 g Cashmere LUPOMAX (13.5% AA) hop stand @ 160 F for 10 min.
24 g Elani/YQH-1320 (8.8% AA) dry hop @ packaging
20 g Nelson Sauvin (12.2% AA) dry hop @ packaging
20 g Cashmere LUPOMAX (13.5% AA) dry hop @ packaging
(I usually use a serving keg with a screened, floating dip tube. The dry hop charge is put in the keg, the keg is purged, beer is transferred in, and then the keg goes immediately into the cooler where it stays at serving temperature from that point on. I haven't had a problem with vegetal flavors developing, but I drink it quickly.)

 

[BongoYodeler]

Here’s my recipe for a 2.5-gallon batch of double IPA; obviously you’d want something less alcoholic and less bitter for the NE version. But the hop character is excellent:

RO water, Ca 140, SO4 75, Cl 200

3.6 lb. Pale Ale Malt (~2.5L)
3.6 lb. Vienna (~4L)
0.8 lb. flaked barley
0.7 lb. flaked oats (I was going to use all barley, but ran out)
0.3 lb. honey malt

OG 1.090/FG 1.010

single-infusion mash @ 148 F, 60 minutes

60-minute boil:
8 g Magnum (15.4% AA) @ 60 min.
12 g Elani/YQH-1320 (8.8% AA) @ 20 min.
10 g Nelson Sauvin (12.2% AA) @ 20 min.
10 g Cashmere LUPOMAX (13.5% AA) @ 20 min.
12 g Elani/YQH-1320 (8.8% AA) @ 5 min.
10 g Nelson Sauvin (12.2% AA) @ 5 min.
10 g Cashmere LUPOMAX (13.5% AA) @ 5 min.
12 g Elani/YQH-1320 (8.8% AA) hop stand @ 160 F for 10 min.
10 g Nelson Sauvin (12.2% AA) hop stand @ 160 F for 10 min.
10 g Cashmere LUPOMAX (13.5% AA) hop stand @ 160 F for 10 min.
24 g Elani/YQH-1320 (8.8% AA) dry hop @ packaging
20 g Nelson Sauvin (12.2% AA) dry hop @ packaging
20 g Cashmere LUPOMAX (13.5% AA) dry hop @ packaging
(I usually use a serving keg with a screened, floating dip tube. The dry hop charge is put in the keg, the keg is purged, beer is transferred in, and then the keg goes immediately into the cooler where it stays at serving temperature from that point on. I haven't had a problem with vegetal flavors developing, but I drink it quickly.)

Sounds good.
I like the idea of 2.5 gallon batches. I think I’ll eventually move to that as I get older and my back gets even more finicky. Kettle and smaller kegs are no big deal to find but I haven’t seen smaller fermenters that have the ability to pressure transfer. Do they exist? What’s your transfer method?

 

[HM-2]

My current NEIPA keg just kicked so I need to begin recipe planning. Can anyone recommend a solid NEIPA hop schedule that I can try, that will not taste like the typical citra/galaxy batch (as all my batches taste)? I will be using Verdant IPA yeast.

The last great one I did was:

• 15 IBU Motueka at 30 minutes
• 70g Motueka (4 IBU) / 50g Vic Secret Cryo (7.5 IBU) / 25g BRU-1 Cryo (4 IBU) whirlpool @ 75°C
• 150g BRU-1 Cryo / 75g Motueka / 60g Vic Secret Cryo dry hop when a few points off FG

That was in a 6.8% beer with a 1.070 OG and 1.018 FG. MO, Golden Naked Oats, Wheat and Flaked Oats, fermented with Koln.

 

[AlexKay]

Sounds good.
I like the idea of 2.5 gallon batches. I think I’ll eventually move to that as I get older and my back gets even more finicky. Kettle and smaller kegs are no big deal to find but I haven’t seen smaller fermenters that have the ability to pressure transfer. Do they exist? What’s your transfer method?

I ferment in 3-gallon kegs with a FlotIt. Purge a second keg with fermentation CO2, spund, closed transfer through the posts.

My 1-gallon batches I do in 1.75-gallon kegs.

 

[Bago-0]

There are differences in a persons ability to taste based on the number and type of papillae in the tongue. Some people are considered super tasters (Not me) and can tell the subtle difference in hops bitterness. Others cannot discern the subtle differences. I have read articles in my medical literature describing this and studies have been done to count the papillae and confirm this idea. So, I am also one of the people that cannot tell the difference among most NEIPA's. I just like them. My wife is a supertaster and collects wine. When I go with her to wine tastings I laugh at all the flavors being described and I either like the wine or I don't. She can tell the subtle differences.

 

[RyPA]

There are differences in a persons ability to taste based on the number and type of papillae in the tongue. Some people are considered super tasters (Not me) and can tell the subtle difference in hops bitterness. Others cannot discern the subtle differences. I have read articles in my medical literature describing this and studies have been done to count the papillae and confirm this idea. So, I am also one of the people that cannot tell the difference among most NEIPA's. I just like them. My wife is a supertaster and collects wine. When I go with her to wine tastings I laugh at all the flavors being described and I either like the wine or I don't. She can tell the subtle differences.

I always thought the breweries that claim notes of dragon fruit or ripe apricot were blowing smoke but maybe what you said helps justify it, partly at least.

A brewery near me does a really good beer called mosaic punch, they condition it on peaches I believe and add lactose. Peach is the flavor I’m after and maybe the flavor is not going to be derived from the hops and I need to condition on fruit.

 

[day_trippr]

Peach is the flavor I’m after and maybe the flavor is not going to be derived from the hops and I need to condition on fruit.

You could try using a "Conan" yeast strain and run it chill - like, around 60°F. I did that once and all by itself it pounded major peach character into the "Vermont Hazy" I was brewing (think Alchemist and all that )...

Cheers!

 

[RyPA]

What are your guys thoughts on this recipe? My goal is to not use galaxy or citra and see what I get (a different tasting NEIPA). I always struggle with how much hops to use in the whirlpool and dry hop. I'm not sure how I feel about the mosaic that brings resin/pine to the table, or glass.

I also have some vic secret and simcoe on hand.

Thanks

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1470116/amarillo-mosaic-nectaron-neipa

 

[day_trippr]

I've never used Nectaron but I use lots of Mosaic and Amarillo every year, and that combination looks favorable to me.
One of these days I'm going to give Nectaron a try...

https://beermaverick.com/hops/hop-comparison-tool/

Cheers!

 

[RyPA]

@day_trippr yeah I use that same tool, and not sure how I feel about the pine resin. And the other question, how much at whirlpool and dry hop

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, in 2024 I consolidated my hazy IPA hop schedule to this:

- I typically use Chinook or CTZ for a T60 bittering addition
- 1 ounce of each character hop at T5
- 2 ounces of each character hop for a 20 minute 170°F post-boil whirlpool
- post fermentation two day "soft crash" to 50°F
- 2 ounces of each character hop for a two day dry hop
- hard crash for two days then keg

This has been providing robust and persistent hop character all the way to the end of each keg...

Cheers!

[edit] ^for ten gallon batches^

 

[AlexKay]

Just poured my first glass of a triple IPA (or whatever you want to call a very bitter, over-the-top fruity, 12.5% ABV ale). Nectaron/Grove/Sultana. It is so choice. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up.

 

[RyPA]

fwiw, in 2024 I consolidated my hazy IPA hop schedule to this:

- I typically use Chinook or CTZ for a T60 bittering addition
- 1 ounce of each character hop at T5
- 2 ounces of each character hop for a 20 minute 170°F post-boil whirlpool
- post fermentation two day "soft crash" to 50°F
- 2 ounces of each character hop for a two day dry hop
- hard crash for two days then keg

This has been providing robust and persistent hop character all the way to the end of each keg...

Cheers!

[edit] ^for ten gallon batches^

Just saw your note on 10g batch. I wonder how much, if any, I can dial it back for a 6g batch. A lot of guys will say that is way too little hops for a NEIPA, even for a 5 gallon batch.

 

[HM-2]

Just saw your note on 10g batch. I wonder how much, if any, I can dial it back for a 6g batch. A lot of guys will say that is way too little hops for a NEIPA, even for a 5 gallon batch.

For a 6g batch, assuming that you're doing 3 flavour hops, you're looking at about 7g/L. I'd consider that to be on the lower side even if 100% Cryo. I generally target 10-12g/L but have gone as high as 16g in DIPAs. The best Hazy breweries often hit 20g/L plus...

I've mentioned before but IME the whirlpool is more important than the dry hop in a NEIPA. 3.5g/L at 5m and 7g/L at whirlpool is going to be pretty flavoursome. Probably decent levels of bitterness too which should help with the structure. I seldom do a 30m/60m addition in hazies (in fact I seldom do.a 60m boil full stop) but will often do 10-15m bittering additions.

 

[RyPA]

So that brings another question, is lack of hops the missing piece to my flavor (all tasting the same) issue?

 

[VikeMan]

Just poured my first glass of a triple IPA (or whatever you want to call a very bitter, over-the-top fruity, 12.5% ABV ale). Nectaron/Grove/Sultana. It is so choice. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up.

 

[HM-2]

So that brings another question, is lack of hops the missing piece to my flavor (all tasting the same) issue?

I think it's probably a contributor.

The last hazy I brewed had the following hopping schedule (this is a single hop hazy as part of a range of SH ones I'm experimenting with, same grist and yeast).

10g BRU-1 LupoMAX at 15m
160g BRU-1 LupoMAX 20m whirlpool at 75°C
100g BRU-1 LupoMAX day 2 high krausen DH
180g BRU-1 LupoMAX at day 7 for 2 days after soft crash to 12°C.

That's very nearly a full pound of hops in a 6.5g batch. And it smelled absolutely incredible at kegging.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I've been brewing hazies since 2016 (Heady Topper clone was my first) and started with dry hopping twice as much (two rounds) but found if I switched from using flaked to malted adjuncts (oats and wheat) the haze persistence and hop character intensity both matched up with commercial products and lasted until the kegs kick. Ie: flaked adjuncts will fall out faster and take hop character with it.

I still do one recipe with twice the dry hops as above - an all-Citra bomb where the insane intensity is appreciated - but the rest follow the outline provided...

Cheers!

 

[RyPA]

Thanks @day_trippr. Think I'm going to try this. If anyone has any suggestions please weigh in!

Amarillo, Mosaic, and Nectaron

2 ounce of each for a 30 minute 170°F whirlpool
2 ounces of each for dry-hop (I ferment/serve in the same keg so they will be in the keg for life)

Totals:
6 oz total for WP
6 oz total for DH

 

[AlexKay]

I’d drop the Mosaic. It’s overpowering.