All NEIPA recipes taste the same

[RyPA]

I brew 5-6 NEIPA's a year and always switch up the hop combinations, but I find that they all taste nearly identical. Certain hops claims to have notes of pineapple, peach, stonefruit, etc. , but I do not get that experience. Is it my process, or are my 43 year old taste buds losing it?

In both of the below processes, I keep o2 exposure to a minimum and the beers remain looking like OJ until the keg kicks

My most common NEIPA process:
1. Mash at around 154F for 60 minutes
2. Boil for 30 minutes
3. Whirlpool a few oz of hops at 160-170 for 30 minutes
4. Chill to 95F when using Kveik
5. Ferment until I reach FG
6. Add a dry hops to the keg, commando, and put it in my kegerator
7. Begin drinking after a few days

I recently did a batch using Verdant yeast and made slight changes:
1. Mash at around 154F for 60 minutes
2. Boil for 30 minutes
3. Whirlpool a few oz of hops at 160-170 for 30 minutes
4. Chill to 68F when using Verdant
5. Added a few oz of hops at high krausen
6. Ferment until FG reached
7. Waited 3 more days
8. Add a dry hops to the keg, commando, and put it in my kegerator
9. Begin drinking after a few days

Do I need more time for fermentation, more time dry hopping warm?

 

[AlexKay]

I don’t have the most discerning tastebuds either. I also collect hops like some people collect stamps. And I definitely see where you’re coming from.

It can only help things to up your oxygen-exclusion game when you’re making IPAs. And it’s possible that your beers would taste different from each other fresh but all taste similar once oxidation sets in. There are a gazillion posts and dozens of folks ready to help if you want to look at improving your process.

I would recommend only using two aroma hops in any given recipe, partly because I don’t think you actually need more, but mostly because it’s the best way to figure out what you’re doing.

There are a few hops that are overwhelming. If you’re using Citra, chances are good your beer is going to taste like Citra, whatever else you do with the recipe. Ditto Sabro. In my opinion, ditto Nelson.

But yeah, there have been a ton of times when people are raving about some new hop (hi, Vista!) and going into specifics about all the different things that they can taste in it, and I’m thinking, “yeah, tastes like a generically fruity New World hop.”

But there are some hops that really stand out as different. Here are just a few suggestions for combinations that (I think!) I could pick out of a lineup (and also think are really good):

Citra & Amarillo
Cashmere & Nelson
Cascade & Centennial
Sabro & Talus
Nectaron & Grove
Lotus & Bergamot

 

[RyPA]

@AlexKay I think I can rule o2 exposure out of the issue. I ferment and serve from the same keg, so my beer really only has the chance of seeing o2 when I dry hop. When I dry hop, I purge 10-15 times so the beer sees oxygen for only 10 seconds tops.

Regarding hop combinations, maybe that is it. I almost always have Citra in the mix, and in some cases Galaxy which I heard can be overpowering. Maybe what I need is to find hop combinations that will give me some varying flavors. I was hoping my latest batch would bring something new to the table, but it's just an average NEIPA (Citra, Amarillo, Necatron fermented with Verdant).

I also want to add that I only have hot-side fermentation temperature control. So when using kveik I can keep it at 95F, but for yeasts that like it colder, I have to rely on room temperature. This time of year works given I live in NJ, and I can get to 65-68.

 

[wepeeler]

Kviek is your issue. There's an off flavor in every beer I've made with it.

 

[McMullan]

There's an off flavor in every beer I've made with it.

Careful, the kveik marketing people will fall out of their prams. It’s not an off flavour, it’s “kveikness”, apparently. Just like down is “up” and night is “day”. It’s crazy what marketing can make people do, against their own best interests. I don’t buy it, why go to all the effort preparing a nice sweet wort then pitch something like kveik?

I brew 5-6 NEIPA's a year and always switch up the hop combinations, but I find that they all taste nearly identical. Certain hops claims to have notes of pineapple, peach, stonefruit, etc. , but I do not get that experience. Is it my process, or are my 43 year old taste buds losing it?

The differences between hops can be quite subtle. Very few of us would stop drinking beer if our favourite hop varieties disappeared. But you can train your self to detect subtle differences. As noted already, by using fewer hops, for example. I usually do a small SMASH brew when trying new hops. But, yes, the marketing is often 90% BS. That’s marketing.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I recently did a batch using Verdant yeast and made slight changes:
1. Mash at around 154F for 60 minutes
2. Boil for 30 minutes
3. Whirlpool a few oz of hops at 160-170 for 30 minutes
4. Chill to 68F when using Kveik
5. Added a few oz of hops at high krausen
6. Ferment until FG reached
7. Waited 3 more days
8. Add a dry hops to the keg, commando, and put it in my kegerator
9. Begin drinking after a few days

Was this second batch with Verdant? Or kveik?

If Verdant, was your problem perceived in both batches? One kveik, one Verdant?

 

[madscientist451]

I’ve been playing around with my own versions of low ABV NEIPA and trying to study what information is out there. My next step is using phantasm from More Beer and then thiolized yeast strains. I’m just changing one thing at a time, to see how it works for me, but I believe the instructions say to use the phantasm with the thiolized yeast. Bio-transformation to pull out the desired flavor notes from the hops is what I’m going after. There are several interesting podcasts available where all the above is discussed by people with more knowledge and experience than I have.

 

[McMullan]

There are several interesting podcasts available where all the above is discussed by people with more knowledge and experience than I have.

How many of them have a financial interest in pushing certain ideas? That’s the first thing I consider, “What’s this individual trying to sell me?” Then, “Where’s the data?”. There’s some interesting research being done, but a lot of marketing BS too.

 

[Bobby_M]

Change the yeast to omega brit V and whirlpool at 180f.

 

[madscientist451]

How many of them have a financial interest in pushing certain ideas? That’s the first thing I consider, “What’s this individual trying to sell me?” Then, “Where’s the data?”. There’s some interesting research being done, but a lot of marketing BS too.

I’m making different versions of NEIPA so I can see for myself if what they are selling works for me. I won’t have any data, just my personal opinion about how the beer comes out.

 

[HM-2]

No, they don't. HTH.

Being slightly less facetious and slightly more helpful, what's your wider process? Hop combinations? I had several very samey NEIPAs early in my brewing experience because I hadn't dialled in good practice and used rather questionable recipes.

Walk us through a full brew day. Hopping rates, hop selection, split between boil/whirlpool/dry hop, etc.

 

[DonT]

Which Kveik? If your using Voss, that'll add an orange tang thing. Not sure about other kveiks in a NEIPA...

 

[HM-2]

I don't know where this idea that Kveik plays nice with NEIPAs comes from. It ferments much too dry at worts under about 1.080. if you want the fruity hops to pop you need residual sugars.

Also, looking at previous posts, if you're doing standard 5G batches "a few ounces" of hops in the whirlpool is waaaay low. Minimum 4oz cryo or 7-8oz standard T90 pellets if you really want them to pop.

 

[DBhomebrew]

OP has to confirm, but I believe their mentioning kveik in both batches is erroneous. The way I read it, they're experiencing the same thing in both kveik and Verdant batches.

 

[Red over White]

Lots of great advice above. I have found in my ales made with Verdant that whatever the percentage of whirlpool hops used, I bitter with the same percentage i.e. if I'm boiling for 60 minutes and going to whirlpool 3 different hops @ 1oz each, my bitter addition is equal portions of all 3 hops. I have found this gives me more expression of the flavors of the different hops than no bittering addition and only whirlpool or something neutral like Magnum/Warrior for bittering and the whirlpool addition.

 

[k-daddy]

Change the yeast to omega brit V and whirlpool at 180f.

Have you tried the DKO version of this yeast? If so, what do you think... gimmick or legit?

 

[Bobby_M]

Have you tried the DKO version of this yeast? If so, what do you think... gimmick or legit?

I haven't, but the same preventions for diacetyl also prevent acetaldehyde problems. To avoid hop creep, hop during peak fermentation and/or post diacetyl rest and soft crash to 50F.

 

[Bobby_M]

Regarding hop combinations, maybe that is it. I almost always have Citra in the mix, and in some cases Galaxy which I heard can be overpowering. Maybe what I need is to find hop combinations that will give me some varying flavors. I was hoping my latest batch would bring something new to the table, but it's just an average NEIPA (Citra, Amarillo, Necatron fermented with Verdant).

Most NEIPAs do have citra in them and that's one of the common flavors I'm seriously getting sick of. Nectaron is a blend and as far as I can tell, it tastes like Citra and Amarillo. It can help to try single hops to really appreciate what they can do.

 

[Wayne1]

Nectaron is a blend

Nectaron is NOT a blend. Nectaron hops

 

[HM-2]

Nectaron is NOT a blend. Nectaron hops

This. Nectaron has a weird heritage, IIRC it's either Fuggle/Saaz or Fuggle/Cluster descended so the pineapple and stone fruit it throws is kinda odd. And IME, it tastes like neither Citra nor Amaraillo- much more peach/nectarine/pineapple. Kind of reminds me of Strata without the dankness.

 

[AlexKay]

I get apricots from Nectaron … which is why I recommend pairing it with Grove. Or Sultana, maybe. It does go nicely with Citra, too, though in at least a 2:1 ratio so you have a chance of tasting it. But I agree with the advice: if you think all your IPAs taste the same, stop using Citra.

 

[day_trippr]

But I agree with the advice: if you think all your IPAs taste the same, stop using Citra.

Agreed. And probably Mosaic as well if one wants to get away from "same-ness".
Branch out! There are a ton of applicable strains out there!

Cheers!

 

[madscientist451]

Agreed. And probably Mosaic as well if one wants to get away from "same-ness".
Branch out! There are a ton of applicable strains out there!

Cheers!

The information I’ve found indicates some hops just work better in NEIPAs than others, especially when using thiolized yeast. So if that’s the route you want to follow (that’s what I’m checking out now) then your choice of hops becomes more limited.

 

[AlexKay]

The information I’ve found indicates some hops just work better in NEIPAs than others, especially when using thiolized yeast. So if that’s the route you want to follow (that’s what I’m checking out now) then your choice of hops becomes more limited.

I honestly don’t like what thiolized yeast does to beer. And, relevant to the current discussion, I think thiolized yeast definitely imparts a same-ness, and should be avoided if you’re looking to break out of your flavor box.

 

[day_trippr]

I have not used any formally "thiolized" yeast strains, though when I first started brewing neipas I often did the first dry-hop at peak-krausen+1 day, and followed that charge with another once fermentation was "complete".

I don't do that any more - I've converted to the Scott Janish methodology: I do a two-day 50°F "soft-crash", hit the fermentors with a healthy dry hop charge for two days, then hard crash and keg. I'm getting the same hop intensity with perhaps slightly different/nuanced character, and it lasts for at least as long...

Cheers!

 

[Bobby_M]

Nectaron is NOT a blend. Nectaron hops

Jeez, where did I get that from? I'm claiming Mandela.

 

[RyPA]

Thanks everyone for weighing in.

I fixed my original post, the second batch uses Verdant when chilling to 68, I copy and pasted and forgot to switch it from Kveik to Verdant.

It is Voss kveik.. and I like the citrusy notes, plus the fast fermentation and without cold temp fermentation temp control, its perfect to use in the summer. I do not have a ton of experience with different yeasts, I've only used voss kveik, verdant, so4, so5, nottingham, windsor, and lutra kveik. Never have used liquid yeast either.

I have done larger hop additions in the past in the WP and/or dry hop. In some cases I'd end up with hop burn or too much bitterness, because of this I've been hesitant to go crazy with hop additions. Likely part of my process with these issues.

Granted, the beers are not terrible and the guys at work enjoy them, initially they were shocked and said "it doesnt taste like homebrew!".

Here's a few of my most recent recipes, if you want to take a look at hop amounts.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1453462/amarillo-citra-nectaron-neipa
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1225935/mosaic-citra-el-dorado-neipa
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1252618/amarillo-citra-galaxy-neipa

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm curious about your listed mash pH of 5.2 with no listed acid additions. While the hopping is a little light, it's not by much. However, hops can come across a little flabby with a high overall wort pH.

I've also done some split batch experimentation on fermentation temperatures on NEIPA and found extreme hop differences between 65 and 70F ferments. The latter of which had much more muted aroma and flavor. You'll have a better beery summer if you can get yourself an Inkbird and a small fridge.

 

[day_trippr]

Looking at those recipe titles if there's an issue it seems pretty clear: all three employ Citra - which seriously wants to be the soloist in the hop choir.

I love Citra - one of my neipas uses Chinook for 60 minute IBUs and then pounds the Citra from 5 minutes to FO to WP through dry hop - and I love it! But if one is brewing neipas that seem to all be repeats and they're all using Citra I'd say try leaving out the Citra

Cheers!

 

[HM-2]

Here's a few of my most recent recipes, if you want to take a look at hop amounts.

In addition to the "Citra soloist" comments, there's a few observations I'd make.

Firstly, your FG seems rather on the low side. 1.011-13 is pretty dry for a NEIPA, even at relatively low ABVs. For a 6% beer I typically shoot around 1.016-1.018, the residual sweetness really helps make fruit flavours more pronounced. My personal approach is to mash NEIPAs quite hot and use golden naked oats to boost the unfermentable sugars.

Your whirlpool rates seem very low. 2.5-3oz for a 6 gallon fermenter volume is only about 3g/L. I've currently got an English IPA in the fermenter which was whirlpooled at 5g/L. The last NEIPA I brewed was 8g/L all cryo and to be honest I think it could have done with more like 10. My own process is 20 minutes at 75°C which has produced good results. I generally find that gram for gram I get significantly more flavour (as opposed to aroma) out of the whirlpool; playing around with similar beers but shifting hops between whirlpool and DH, I've actually found more fruit forward flavours coming out of a big whirlpool and no DH at all versus a small whirlpool and a big DH.

Dry hopping rates seem fine, though I'd question the merits of a high krausen dry hop outside of using yeasts with particularly pronounced beta-glucosidase activity. These days I only bother with Kolsh which has become my go-to for NEIPA. Also, are you dry hopping cold or warm? Dumping any trub? I've found I have significantly less issue with hop burn or creep if I dump trub and crash down below 12°C when dry hopping, especially with a few PSI of pressure.