All my pale ales are tasting the same...

[amarsolek]

So I am having an issue of all of my pale ales tasting strikingly similar. For example...I just brewed these two recipes and they are almost exactly the same! I wanted to learn more about hop character so I did some single hops, but they taste so much the same the difference is minimal. Check out the recipes and tell me if i'm crazy...

Citra Pale
Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramel Malt - 60L (Briess) (60.0 SRM) Grain 2 12.0 %
11 lbs Pale Malt - 2 Row (Rahr) (1.8 SRM) Grain 1 88.0 %
0.60 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 5 8.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 4.5 IBUs
0.40 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 1.4 IBUs
12.00 Items Fermcap - S (Boil 60.0 mins) Other 4 -
0.60 tsp Gelatin (Secondary 5.0 days) Fining 13 -
1.20 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast 12 -
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 9.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60. Hop 3 22.9 IBUs




Cascade Pale
Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8.0 oz White Wheat (Rahr) (3.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.0 %
11 lbs 4.0 oz Pale Malt - 2 Row (Rahr) (1.8 SRM) Grain 2 90.0 %
12.0 oz Caramel Malt - 60L (Briess) (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.0 %
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 17.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 13.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 6.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop Seven Days Hop 8 0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 9 -
12.00 Items Fermcap - S (Boil 60.0 mins) Other 6 -
1.20 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 1 -

 

[dgez]

hmm...i would say the biggest difference should be from the citra. I once made an IPA that had .5 oz of citra at 15min and .5 oz at 0 mins like your first recipe and I was blown away from its tropical/mango character. Based on my experiance with citra, I would expect a big difference in hop flavor between these two recipes...but maybe the multiple cascade additions drowned out the citra in your recipe?

 

[davefleck]

It could be your palette. Eg, my wife is far better at finding nuances in flavors than I. Pickier eaters tend to have more sensitive palette. I've not used citra but for some they don't like it. Those folks are most likely more sensitive to a particular characteristic that I doubt I'd pick up on...

 

[Boohausen]

your wheat vs your caramel/crystal malt is too low of a percent to notice any body, mouth feel changes and flavor unless your palette is trained to pick up such minor difference the most you will notice is mash eff. and total protein suspension. try munich malts and vienna malts or victory for different flavors at small amounts will little color change.

 

[Boohausen]

and your yeast is a chico strain for both recipe!!!! pretty much the same thing.

 

[wilserbrewer]

As said above...same yeast...same base malt...hops are not all that different...im not shocked they are similiar

 

[amarsolek]

Any other recommendations for yeast if still doing an American Pale?

 

[chezhed]

All my first pale ales seemed to taste the same too. So I went back to experiments 101. Made SMASH recipes and only varied the hops to learn the differences. Then I combined the hops....once I got the desired hop effect, then I started tweaking grains. That may be backwards, as some may say change grain bill first but it worked for me. My palate isn't real sensitive or trained so I find hop differences easier than grain.....
As for yeast, I have tried US04 just to see since it's supposedly English Ale desirable. I didn't notice anything odd but again, it wasn't done to compare.

 

[mikelikesit2000]

You have 3 1/2oz in the first (55% of the hops is cascade and no dry hopping) the second has 4 oz of hops (3 oz cascade in the boil, and 1 oz dry hop with Tomahawk??) pretty similar.
Tomahawk Is primarily a bittering hop.
I would have put in the tomahawk @ 60min, the cascade somewhere in the last 20 min, and dry hopped with centennial, or Amarillo or a hop that does a better job at aroma and flavor.
To make the beers different try a bit of honey malt or aromatic malt. Maybe mix up your base malt with marris otter.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Fat_Bastard]

try subbing a couple of pounds of vienna or munich malt for some of the 2 row or even trying pale ale malt as the base.

 

[h22lude]

All my first pale ales seemed to taste the same too. So I went back to experiments 101. Made SMASH recipes and only varied the hops to learn the differences. Then I combined the hops....once I got the desired hop effect, then I started tweaking grains. That may be backwards, as some may say change grain bill first but it worked for me. My palate isn't real sensitive or trained so I find hop differences easier than grain.....
As for yeast, I have tried US04 just to see since it's supposedly English Ale desirable. I didn't notice anything odd but again, it wasn't done to compare.

This is the best way to figure out the different aromas and flavors or hops. Make a very basic pale ale and change the hops around in each batch. This would be perfect for 1 or 2 gallon batches.

 

[El_Exorcisto]

Are you rapidly chilling your wort? If you're not, the majority of the volatiles in your hops (ie flavor and aroma) are going up with the steam. Also, if you are longing for big aroma and flavor move your additions later in the boil and add enough of them to bring your bitterness up where you want it.

 

[mabrungard]

I see that the moderator must have deleted my post originally made here.

So I will reiterate the main problem that the OP is having without a direct naming of the product. The use of that 'water agent' shown at the bottom of the OP's ingredient list is probably the primary cause of the poor flavor. It adds a lot of sodium to the brewing water and it does not bring the mash pH into the desirable range. It actually tends to create a higher than desired mash pH and that tends to make a dull tasting beer.

Learn to properly adjust your water chemistry and you will be much happier with your beer flavor.

 

[Grinder12000]

I disagree that 5.2 hurts your brew. However with a pale ale the problem COULD be the water and 5.2 might not be fixing the problem. Pale ales are tough. Anybody doing AG better have a water report and doing a lot more then adding 5.2. There are so many tiny things you can do a tiny bit wrong when it comes to Pale ales. You are not dealing with a lot of flavor in the first place.

 

[El_Exorcisto]

I've been doing nothing but all grain since I started two years ago and have no water report. I have my doubts many of any commercial breweries adjust water chemistry for every batch of beer they brew, I none of the three near me do. Skip the adjustment and use sound practice. Good beer shall follow.

 

[ShinyBuddha]

I live a few miles from Stone Brewing and they adjust their water depending on the style they're doing that day. You can get up close and personal with the water filtration system when you go on one of their free tours. It's fun =)

back on topic: If you're looking for a good yeast I'd hit up WLP001 (White Labs) or one of the other strains recommended for that style.

or

Check out some of the Wyeast offerings by style:
Wyeast Pale Ale. Yeast really has the ability to change the flavor of a beer (as I'm sure many people here can tell you).

 

[dstranger99]

I know this is an old thread bump but I have the same predicament sorta, my most recent batch tastes exacty like hoegaarden (A belgium brew). Kinda even tastes like Sierra Nevada ?? Do all pale ales taste alike or is my palette screwed up ?..........Note: my recent batch was called Pyramid ESB from Midwest Supplies.

 

[Yooper]

I know this is an old thread bump but I have the same predicament sorta, my most recent batch tastes exacty like hoegaarden (A belgium brew). Kinda even tastes like Sierra Nevada ?? Do all pale ales taste alike or is my palette screwed up ?..........Note: my recent batch was called Pyramid ESB from Midwest Supplies.

An ESB should taste nothing like a Belgian beer! There are two possibilities if you have some fruitiness or clove flavor in a clean ale yeast. One is a too-high fermentation temperature- especially if combined with only one vial of yeast in a 5 gallon batch. Stressed yeast will create lots of weird flavors that could be considered "Belgian" in flavor due to the phenols and esters produced.

The second possibility could be water chemistry. Chlorine or chloramines in the brewing water can create "chlorophenols", which have a plastic-like clove flavor to them.

 

[DPBISME]

All the hops I see are the AMERICAN Citrus type... are they not?

You want to see something different add some that have a Piney Description... We have those also.

OR

Brew one with English Style hops... FUGGLES and KENT GOLDING (Or even German Style think "Kolsch or Alt Bier")

I just did an IPA with PALASADES only because I wanted to do the same as you TEST HOPS. Someone gave me 24 OZ so I did a 10 Gallon batch with 4 additions (one a dry hop)

It has almost no Citrus notes, it is sweet and perfumy... It was to Perfumy at first but it is mellowing nicely... I will use it again in conjuction with other hops.

There is a good description of HOPS on WIKIPEDIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hop_varieties

DPB

 

[dstranger99]

An ESB should taste nothing like a Belgian beer! There are two possibilities if you have some fruitiness or clove flavor in a clean ale yeast. One is a too-high fermentation temperature- especially if combined with only one vial of yeast in a 5 gallon batch. Stressed yeast will create lots of weird flavors that could be considered "Belgian" in flavor due to the phenols and esters produced.

The second possibility could be water chemistry. Chlorine or chloramines in the brewing water can create "chlorophenols", which have a plastic-like clove flavor to them.

I pitched dry yeast when the wort went below 80. I do this in my basement, stays around 72-74 degrees. Fermented for 3-4 weeks, then transferred to bottling bucket and bottled. Should I have let it ferment for so long ?? I don't have a secondary yet (I could used the bottling bucket) but didn't.

 

[mccabedoug]

As said above...same yeast...same base malt...hops are not all that different...im not shocked they are similiar

I agree. You have lots of C-hops in both recipes, along with similar grain bills, that will pretty much dominate the taste profile.

As stated previously, try NOT using all C-hops (e.g., Cascade, Chinook, Challenger, Citra, etc) for all additions. Change the ratios of hop additions between the three/four addition times (i.e., bittering, flavor, aroma/DH, etc). Change the lovibond/amount of crystal malt. Others have made excellent suggestions.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Yooper]

I pitched dry yeast when the wort went below 80. I do this in my basement, stays around 72-74 degrees. Fermented for 3-4 weeks, then transferred to bottling bucket and bottled. Should I have let it ferment for so long ?? I don't have a secondary yet (I could used the bottling bucket) but didn't.

That's way too warm, and that explains the off-flavors.

You want to ferment most ales in the 65-68 degree range (beer temperature, not ambient). This time of year is tough for many, but you can put the fermenter in a big cooler with a water bath and frozen water bottles to keep the beer in the mid 60s. If you don't have a 60 degree room (and most of us don't), you'll want to use the cooler/icebath method or get a fermentation chamber of some sort.

 

[Dilligaf76]

+1 On the fermenting temps.
This is something I've learned the hard way. When your Pumkin ale is really close to your Pale ale, it's a problem. It upsets me a bit that this is not stressed enough for us new folks. The kits from the LHBS say to cool to under 75 and pitch. They should say pitch under 65 for ales and keep them in that range for at least the first 5-6 days. I still made beer but they've all shared a flavor.
I've recently been using the wet towel wrap and bath tub with water method with good results. Our daytime temps at home are 77 but with very little ice I've manger to keep the water at 66 and somehow the beer has been cooler. Our tub sits under the air vent and with the towel it does pretty good.

 

[Gameface]

I pitched dry yeast when the wort went below 80. I do this in my basement, stays around 72-74 degrees. Fermented for 3-4 weeks, then transferred to bottling bucket and bottled. Should I have let it ferment for so long ?? I don't have a secondary yet (I could used the bottling bucket) but didn't.

You're pitching warm and fermenting hot. There are several flavors that will show up when you ferment that hot. If your room is 72-74 then the first day or two of very active fermentation your beer is probably close to 80F if not above!

I used to pitch around 80F but I've started cooling my wort to 65 before I pitch. The yeast will get off to a faster start if you pitch at 70 or above, but with that fast start they will also do a lot of the fermentation at higher temps too. During active fermentation is the most critical time for flavors that are produced by the yeast. General rule of thumb is that cooler = cleaner (more neutral) flavor, hotter = more esters, more complex flavors, some good, some not so good depending on style.

No need to transfer to secondary. You could leave the beer in the primary even longer and have no ill effects. If you were going to age the beer for several months I'd transfer it to a glass carboy after the first 2-4 weeks in primary.