• Please visit and share your knowledge at our sister communities:
  • If you have not, please join our official Homebrewing Facebook Group!

    Homebrewing Facebook Group

All Group Buy Participants - NCM Price Change

Homebrew Talk

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
So let's say hypothetically someone were to have an LLC with tax numbers and all set up. Feasible they would sell to them at the wholesale price?

What criteria would be needed for such a thing to take place?
 
So let's say hypothetically someone were to have an LLC with tax numbers and all set up. Feasible they would sell to them at the wholesale price?

What criteria would be needed for such a thing to take place?

You should contact NCM to get the details (or another supplier). I know in the past they said they will not set up commercial accounts unless your TIN is for a brewing related business. Not really sure what that means. But I assume that it means you would need your LLC to be something specific to brewing.

You could ask them to send you the application for a new commercial account and see what they are specifically looking for to set one up. I would give as little information as possible without coming across as odd.
 
So let's say hypothetically someone were to have an LLC with tax numbers and all set up. Feasible they would sell to them at the wholesale price?

What criteria would be needed for such a thing to take place?

From the wholsesalers i have talked to you must have a physical storefront for retail homebrew supplies. Some require advertisements for the business or yellow page listing along with you business license number. Like blichmann even ask for invoices from other reputable homebrew wholesalers before you can setup an acct
 
From the wholsesalers i have talked to you must have a physical storefront for retail homebrew supplies. Some require advertisements for the business or yellow page listing along with you business license number. Like blichmann even ask for invoices from other reputable homebrew wholesalers before you can setup an acct

That is going a little over the top but it's their right to select their business.
 
So let's say hypothetically someone were to have an LLC with tax numbers and all set up. Feasible they would sell to them at the wholesale price?

What criteria would be needed for such a thing to take place?

That's exactly what I did in April of last year. I have an old LLC and TIN that's not being used anymore and I set up an account with that. Told CMG I was a brewery and they didn't ask twice. My account is setup as cash so I pay when I order. A credit account required 2 business references. I just requested an updated price list so I'll let you know what they send me.
 
That's exactly what I did in April of last year. I have an old LLC and TIN that's not being used anymore and I set up an account with that. Told CMG I was a brewery and they didn't ask twice. My account is setup as cash so I pay when I order. A credit account required 2 business references. I just requested an updated price list so I'll let you know what they send me.

I wonder how much scrutiny they will have going forward. But that sounds promising.
 
A potential work around would be to setup a random sole proprietorship and get a TIN. Setup an account with CMG and say your a new brewery. If they ask for TTB stuff just say your in the process of filling out paperwork but want to get started on test batches. When I filled out my application they didn't question me at all. The process was really simple and fast. I created the account and ordered within a week. I was dealing with CMG in Illinois so another office might be different.
 
From the wholsesalers i have talked to you must have a physical storefront for retail homebrew supplies. Some require advertisements for the business or yellow page listing along with you business license number. Like blichmann even ask for invoices from other reputable homebrew wholesalers before you can setup an acct
this has me worried that getting a TIN and setting up a coop for the purpose of group buys again isn't going to work. in the end they have chosen to only sell to homebrew supply shops and breweries, and we can't directly force them to sell to us - TIN or not.

is there NO other company out there other than NCM that sells malt?!?

EDIT: based on NCM's website, Briess might be the only product we could get from another supplier:
"As the exclusive North American importers and distributors of Canada Malting, Great Western Malting, Bairds Malt, Best Malz, Thomas Fawcett & Sons and Malteries Franco-Belges we are able to provide you with a wide range of bagged and bulk malts from North America, Europe and the UK. We are also a proud distributor for Briess Malting & Ingredients Co. malts.
(...)
Homebrewers, please be sure to ask for our products at your local homebrew supply store or your preferred on-line store."
http://www.countrymaltgroup.com/
 
That's exactly what I did in April of last year. I have an old LLC and TIN that's not being used anymore and I set up an account with that. Told CMG I was a brewery and they didn't ask twice. My account is setup as cash so I pay when I order. A credit account required 2 business references. I just requested an updated price list so I'll let you know what they send me.
Well, the reason I ask is me and my partner have an LLC set up for our potential brewery we're trying to get going. We don't have a building yet, but we're working on it. The reason im asking is, do they only sell to homebrew stores? Or are they also selling to breweries? If they're not, which distributors are?
 
When I filled out my application they didn't question me at all.

right, but this was before they became all exclusive in who they'll sell to, so it makes sense that they didn't bother checking too much. now that selling direct is such a no-no i would expect them to be more diligent in vetting new customers.
 
right, but this was before they became all exclusive in who they'll sell to, so it makes sense that they didn't bother checking too much. now that selling direct is such a no-no i would expect them to be more diligent in vetting new customers.

When I applied they wouldn't create new account for home brewers. They would still sell to home brewers who had a grandfathered account, but not setup a new one. It seems like the only thing that changed from this time last year is the prices the grandfathered home brewer accounts are getting. I'm sure this depends on which office you talk to and who you talk to.
 
grandfathered Id say is code for get lost. If there were someone like that I am sure they would be on the board and have have an account where groupbuys would be available.
 
The key distinction is if you have a commercial account or a home brewer account that was grandfathered in. The commercial account is still ok. However the home brewer account is only allowed the new pricing.

We have guys up and down the eastern sea board that have gotten this message. I would be shocked if they are only enforcing this by office, but that is possible.

grandfathered Id say is code for get lost.
that is pretty much the message I am seeing too. They are making an active decision to make us buy through LHBS. Briess in particular with that high pricing. For christ sakes briess is a US based company and foreign malt companies are selling grain to us after shipping across the pond for cheaper.

I strongly dislike Briess, and avoid their products for the above reasons. I have dodged them ever since they tried to cut us HBers out of the bulk grain buys prior to this Refusing to sell to us.
 
I wasn't saying the pricing was being enforced office by office. I was saying the amount of due diligence for new brewery accounts might be different office by office. Judging from kosmokramer's link, CMG now needs a Brewer's Notice to setup an account. This wasn't needed when I setup my account. Hopefully they don't come back and ask me for one. I don't really see a work around for the new pricing besides switching suppliers. The pricing for CM-2ROW went from $29.15 a sack to $39.49. After shipping that's about what I pay at the LHBS. Sucks.
 
kosmo, good link to have.

As a reminder to all I posted a bunch of relevant links to post one of this thread. I will keep the links there so you can click back and get the meat of what you are looking for in one place.

jww9618 - hopefully you are safe for now. I think they want to get rid of most HBers but won't be able to get them all.


the TTB thing is the knife to the throat
 
I really don't understand the point of this all, they're selling a ton of product to brewers, what difference does it make where or how we brew it. The only thing i can think is that homebrew shops somewhere leaned on them and told them they're losing profit by selling to us. I mean i want to support out LHBS as much as the next guy, but why does malt have to go through 20 different hands.
 
Has anyone dealt with http://www.gwkent.com/ before? I found them on the distributers list off the briess website. If you add more then a couple hundred pounds onto your online order they have a common frieght truck option. May be more economical? I know their selection is **** compared to CMG, but its better then nothing right?
 
Has anyone dealt with http://www.gwkent.com/ before? I found them on the distributers list off the briess website. If you add more then a couple hundred pounds onto your online order they have a common frieght truck option. May be more economical? I know their selection is **** compared to CMG, but its better then nothing right?

Briess malt is still a pretty good selection. If you can order those for about $7/bag shipping in pallet form that would be pretty close to what we used to pay through CMG
 
I really hope the mods delete this thread. It's hurting us more than helping us. $0.02

To CMG homebrewing group buys were just a drop in the bucket.

With the number of homebrewers increasing by huge numbers every year as well as the demand from breweries and LHBS's increasing daily they are not worried in the least. I really think CMG could care less about the business of selling directly to end users. CMG realizes there are other malt suppliers out there and they don't want to upset breweries or LHBS's - their biggest customers.

The point is the demand for malt is steadily and quickly increasing. They are losing no money by refusing to sell to group buys, we should really consider that they were doing us a favor all those years by allowing it. Manufacturers almost ALWAYS sell through distributors, not directly to end users.
 

I feel like this thread is a case of "what have you done for me lately". NCM has been good to us and we should acknowledge it. If we are hopeful in getting some kind of resolution that favors both parties we should stop bashing them. Honestly, where else can we go?
 
Hey at the end of the day this really ammounts to a business decision. If we were totally insignificant they might not have done these deals with us in the first place. Our business meant something to them. Now we need to figure out what the next best alternative is. As I have said before, I think it would be wise if the organizers of these group buys got their numbers together. knowing just how much economic power we homebrewers wield could proove to be eyeopening. Or not. Just saying. What worries me is that now that we're cut off from bulk savings, what will the HBS do to grain prices. They kinda got us by the balls. Any one who brews small extraxt kits should know that it costs about the same to brew 2 cases as it does to buy them. Isn't that at least partly why we like all grain? It's cheaper. What will we do if this time next year we have to pay 30-40 bucks a case just to brew all grain?
 
I don't think people are bashing them. Many just want to know why the sudden change in policy without any notification. As a business, NCM isn't required to give us homebrewers and special treatment, but the "penalty" against homebrewers seems not to be fair. Group buys have paid them a fair price for the grain, made arrangements for delivery and in general are in good standing. They aren't making less money or more inconvenienced by homebrewer group buys.

What people dislike is the possibility that LHBS or other businesses are pressuring them to stop selling directly and that's why they are doing it. And then not having the option to buy in bulk. I shop at a lot of different stores and I am loyal to the places I shop, but I will shop for convenience, service, and price. My LHBS offers convenience, good advice, and great camaraderie, but the prices for some things like bulk hops or grain is not as good as other sources. Hopsdirect has 13% AA hops now for around $6+shipping, most LHBS sell hops at $2/oz.

Other people say that many manufacturers don't sell to end consumers, which is true. But if you go to a manufacturer and want to put in an order that is at least their minimum (which may be a huge pallet) for tires, hats, whatever, they will usually sell it to you. But this now seems to not be the case. I know people that have gotten money together for a group buy of a production run of jeans, a barrel of whiskey, a pallet of glassware, etc.
 
Hey at the end of the day this really ammounts to a business decision. If we were totally insignificant they might not have done these deals with us in the first place. Our business meant something to them. Now we need to figure out what the next best alternative is. As I have said before, I think it would be wise if the organizers of these group buys got their numbers together. knowing just how much economic power we homebrewers wield could proove to be eyeopening. Or not. Just saying. What worries me is that now that we're cut off from bulk savings, what will the HBS do to grain prices. They kinda got us by the balls. Any one who brews small extraxt kits should know that it costs about the same to brew 2 cases as it does to buy them. Isn't that at least partly why we like all grain? It's cheaper. What will we do if this time next year we have to pay 30-40 bucks a case just to brew all grain?

They will do what they have always done, be competitive or not. The market dictates the price of everything unless it is government regulated. If 100% of the shops all agreed to price fix, that's one thing. However, it just takes one rebel that wants to operate on a discount and volume model and it forces all the others to adjust or provide a value added service to compensate.

You guys should call up the better bottle people and try to get a few skids delivered. NCM was the only homebrew related master distributor who ever entertained an end user group buy so they are basically just falling into line with the rest of the world in every supply chain and industry.

Possible solution? Talk to your LHBS and tell them your club is willing to add one full pallet of grain to their next pallet order and you're willing to pay $5 a sack over cost. That's $200 profit for them for holding stock for 10 minutes. If they decline, tell them you're going to the next store and advising your club to boycott on all ingredients. If you truly have the upper hand with numbers, they will listen.
 
They will do what they have always done, be competitive or not. The market dictates the price of everything unless it is government regulated. If 100% of the shops all agreed to price fix, that's one thing. However, it just takes one rebel that wants to operate on a discount and volume model and it forces all the others to adjust or provide a value added service to compensate.

Capitalism rocks.
 
Possible solution? Talk to your LHBS and tell them your club is willing to add one full pallet of grain to their next pallet order and you're willing to pay $5 a sack over cost. That's $200 profit for them for holding stock for 10 minutes. If they decline, tell them you're going to the next store and advising your club to boycott on all ingredients. If you truly have the upper hand with numbers, they will listen.

I think this is the answer then if NCM wont' sell directly to homebrewers anymore

You approach a store and tell them that you will take orders directly, be responsible for collecting individual payments, and be there to distribute the grain. You'll offer them a fee, $200 for their trouble to just put in the order for you and you'll take care of the rest. Convince them that this act of good will mean increased business for them in the future and they make a tidy profit for not much work.

Alternatively, you could try and convince your LHBS to lower the prices on their bulk base malt, saying that if they lower prices to $XXX, which is cheaper than NCM direct prices, they'll get enough volume to recover losses in profits from dropping prices.
 
Back
Top