All Group Buy Participants - NCM Price Change

[forstmeister]

When was this new policy enacted? We just took delivery of a $12,000 group buy last week.

Yikes Bill, I just noticed the GW pale ale malt is 3X more expensive than we paid last order. Glad I got some when I did.

 

[Olive Drab]

When was this new policy enacted? We just took delivery of a $12,000 group buy last week.

a few days ago

 

[IslandLizard]

Yikes Bill, I just noticed the GW pale ale malt is 3X more expensive than we paid last order. Glad I got some when I did.

3x, if you look in the "per pound" column, buying loose pounds.

But the "new" price sheet has different columns. To compare, look in "$/bag Whole" column.

For most malts, the price hike is roughly 30%-40% from the old list, except Briess is being priced out of the market totally.

You guys were lucky to get that big order in in time. We just missed the boat, so to speak, by a few days. No advance warning either.

 

[bmason1623]

3x, if you look in the "per pound" column, buying loose pounds.

But the "new" price sheet has different columns. To compare, look in "$/bag Whole" column.

For most malts, the price hike is roughly 30%-40% from the old list, except Briess is being priced out of the market totally.

You guys were lucky to get that big order in in time. We just missed the boat, so to speak, by a few days. No advance warning either.

When did you try to get your order in?

 

[forstmeister]

3x, if you look in the "per pound" column, buying loose pounds.

But the "new" price sheet has different columns. To compare, look in "$/bag Whole" column.

For most malts, the price hike is roughly 30%-40% from the old list, except Briess is being priced out of the market totally.

You guys were lucky to get that big order in in time. We just missed the boat, so to speak, by a few days. No advance warning either.

You're right, I overlooked that column. Still, $0.50/ lb last week to $0.80+ sucks and may affect how often I brew.

 

[Weezy]

I'm guessing that they're protecting their higher volume customers, theLHBS.

Or there's an insurance liability issue selling direct to the public (hey, bottom feeding insurance companies and lawyers need to eat too...it's the American way!)

 

[IslandLizard]

When did you try to get your order in?

claphamsa takes on the group ordering and I think he hit a snag on the 3rd when he discovered prices had gone up. From the thread, it looks that on the 9th, when he finally had the new numbers, they wouldn't accept the new order because of their new pricing "policy" for home brewers.

Possibly we have come to the point we simply cannot be "home brewers" anymore.

 

[Weezy]

Could someone post the 2012 pricelist. I'd be more than happy tocall them and discuss this in a courteous and professional manner.

 

[Likwid]

Could someone post the 2012 pricelist. I'd be more than happy tocall them and discuss this in a courteous and professional manner.

you can get the 2013 price list

To see the catalog, go to:http://www.countrymaltgroup.com/download.asp?f=f6
The password is "CMGCHAMP".


which contains the the same great prices you had in 2012.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm guessing that they're protecting their higher volume customers, theLHBS.

Or there's an insurance liability issue selling direct to the public (hey, bottom feeding insurance companies and lawyers need to eat too...it's the American way!)

My thoughts are someone got to them. Some LHBSs have done their bit of bitching about pricing and group buys on this forum, and elsewhere. They probably colluded trying to crowd out the market with CMG's and came up with a new pricing structure that mimics LHBS grain sheets.

How could insurance play a role, we don't walk onto their property to pick up pallet orders.

In contrary, they want traffic. From the new Home Brewers price list it has the looks they want to sell malt by the pound and ship Fedex. Who in that company came up with that brilliant idea?

Hey, any of you have ideas on getting around this obstacle, be creative, and put some ideas out.

Or should we better keep it off the public boards? Who's listening in?

 

[jprice]

Heard grumblings a few months ago local homebrew shop found out about the group buys and was not happy. My bet is the homebrew shops looked more into the issue and probably banned together to pressure them to stop these buys as it was hurting their bottom line big time.

I know Keystone Homebrew Supply was an open opponent of group buys in the Philadelphia area. I'm sure there are others that were less vocal publicly, but that dude didnt have a problem with telling the whole world about how much group buys were hurting his business.

 

[IslandLizard]

I found this one for cooperatives, as well: http://www.sba.gov/content/cooperative

I wonder if one could be formed using a service like LegalZoom or Rocket Lawyer, with one of us just filling out the forms and submitting them, without the need for a full-blown lawyer.

Very possible. You can probably order an MD co-op kit from them.

It is truly amazing what privileges a business licence can get you, and so easily.
Present yourself as a business wanting to do, well, business, and you find all sorts of doors open automatically.

 

[Polboy]

i dont understand NCM business model here. In my situation is simple, i have limited founds for homebrewing, lets say i can spend $1000/year (disclaimer in case my wife is reading this, honey i would never spend so much money on beer, this is just an example) and 70% of this goes in to ingredients. Out of $700 ingredients i spent $400 on group buy purchases (base malt mostly) that goes directly to NCM and $300 for spec malts, fining agents, caps, yeasts ect from LHBS, so far its nice and simple but then NCM decide to remove group buy option from the market and force me to spend all $700 at LHBS. I pay 2x more for base malts so i buy half of what i did before and this means that NCM sells half of the grain to me for half of the price (instead of $400 directly from me NCM gets $200 from LHBS the other $200 is store the markup). Am i missing something or they just giving $200 to the store for nothing in this example??

 

[claphamsa]

i dont understand NCM business model here. In my situation is simple, i have limited founds for homebrewing, lets say i can spend $1000/year (disclaimer in case my wife is reading this, honey i would never spend so much money on beer, this is just an example) and 70% of this goes in to ingredients. Out of $700 ingredients i spent $400 on group buy purchases (base malt mostly) that goes directly to NCM and $300 for spec malts, fining agents, caps, yeasts ect from LHBS, so far its nice and simple but then NCM decide to remove group buy option from the market and force me to spend all $700 at LHBS. I pay 2x more for base malts so i buy half of what i did before and this means that NCM sells half of the grain to me for half of the price (instead of $400 directly from me NCM gets $200 from LHBS the other $200 is store the markup). Am i missing something or they just giving $200 to the store for nothing in this example??

most of us will order the same amount and be pissed off... but still order the same ammount.

the problem is, they have NO competition.

 

[midfielder5]

Here in NorCal, it was my experience that the local malt supplier (I think it was Country Malt but it has been over 1 year +) would not sell to homebrewers or our bulk buys.
When I called to ask why, they said it was to not cut out the homebrew store market. The rep would only sell to me upon proof of a federal brewer's license or brick/mortar LHBS biz license with address.

 

[kosmokramer]

Here in NorCal, it was my experience that the local malt supplier (I think it was Country Malt but it had been a year +) will not sell to homebrewers or bulk buys.
When I called to ask why, they said it was to not cut out the homebrew store market. The rep would only sell to me upon proof of a federal brewer's license or brick/mortar LHBS biz license with address

Our local country malt is out of Hayward and I too was under the impression that they do not sell to home brewers group buy or not

 

[midfielder5]

Yes that is the one, in Hayward.
I now recall the rep said no "new" homebrew group buys, and so they are now screwing over those grandfathered in with these new rules.

 

[kosmokramer]

In all honesty I signed contracts with a partner to open our own LHBS today! Local retail price from more beer is 35 bucks a sack. We will prolly match that price which is very little markup on wholesale costs. I feel for you guys that must pay 70+ for base grain

 

[LabRatBrewer]

In all honesty I signed contracts with a partner to open our own LHBS today! Local retail price from more beer is 35 bucks a sack. We will prolly match that price which is very little markup on wholesale costs. I feel for you guys that must pay 70+ for base grain

Where do you plan to open your shop?

 

[kosmokramer]

It will be in la verne, close to the la fairplex. We're buying the inventory and website of an lhbs that closed in jan. we will also reopen the storefront in its current location under a different name. As soon as we close I will post all details, hopefully you can make it down for a brew day

 

[johns]

Open a LHBS, get the business licence, make the busness a non for profit, run it as a COOP and screw them, just like theyre suppose to do in the medical marijuana industry in Cali and the west coast.

Option 2 is class action, This appears to me to be some type of rackettering going on by price fixing the barley market. Us Americans are the first to scream bloody murder when the Japanese were doing it and to this day when the Chinese are still doing it. Is there a grain Mafia?

Option 3 is to buy a farm and grow your own barley and hops (outside the country) and import the product at cost. I have the hookups in several countries.

I have to beleive with all the people on this board there has to be a solution here. I am not the smartest cookie in the jar here, but no matter what I am all in!!

 

[HBCBrewmaster]

Option 2 is class action, This appears to me to be some type of rackettering going on by price fixing the barley market. Us Americans are the first to scream bloody murder when the Japanese were doing it and to this day when the Chinese are still doing it. Is there a grain Mafia?QUOTE]

I dont think its price fixing to refuse business to a group when you find that doing so is good for your business. That is clearly the calculation that they have made.

Clearly the retail demand is high for grain and increasing. No doubt wholesale demand is also increasing with all the new micros poping up all over. If you can make the same sales money but restrict the distribution, that savings will go straight to the bottom line.

I agree that this problem will require bigger and "outside the box" thinking. What about a national co-op? Millions of dollars in grain purchaced from overseas farms and shipped to 2 or three strategically placed domestic wharehouses. Then distributed directally to HBT group buys (or others) who have signed co-op membership agreements.

That ought to get the attention of NCM!ipe:

 

[Lgaddy44]

SHHHHHHHH! They're probably here now, watching us!

But for real, I enjoy seeing so many getting involved in brainstorming a resolution for us. I don't have any more to offer than what has previously been mentioned, but I'm all for participating with whatever option is best.

THANKS ALL!

 

[CidahMastah]

I hope they are watching us - perhaps it will drive them to a change. But reality just kicked in (they will follow the money). As it has already been said, until we stop buying from them all together (via bulk buy, LHBS, whatever), they will not be interested in changing. They would need to feel the pain in their revenue. I am not sure it is possible for us to inflict that.

At least a solution has not presented itself at this point.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

Back in the day (1994-1997), I was buying directly from Canada Malting in Montreal. I had set-up a cash account (payed by check actually) and I had a business license in "micro-brewery consulting". They were pretty intrigued by it, but since I was meeting their minimum purchase of half-a-ton (20 bags) they were happy to oblige. Pick up was a bit unconventional, as I'd go there with a work van and they were set-up with a loading dock, and my order would come palletized. I'd simply open the back of the van and muscle the 20+ bags into the van, while the Labbat's and Molson's tractor trailers would get filled from the top, and weighed going in and going out.

(and just to humor us all, a 25kg bag of Canada 2-row was $18 at my price)

I think that NCM has been getting a lot of pressure from HBS's and has decided to back off the group buys. Whether that's good or bad is a different story. If their prices are similar to HBS's, in all likeliness, the purchases will shift back towards HBS's (as it's easier/simpler) and will leave NCM with the same level of profit.

MC

 

[CidahMastah]

Back in the day (1994-1997), I was buying directly from Canada Malting in Montreal. I had set-up a cash account (payed by check actually) and I had a business license in "micro-brewery consulting". They were pretty intrigued by it, but since I was meeting their minimum purchase of half-a-ton (20 bags) they were happy to oblige. Pick up was a bit unconventional, as I'd go there with a work van and they were set-up with a loading dock, and my order would come palletized. I'd simply open the back of the van and muscle the 20+ bags into the van, while the Labbat's and Molson's tractor trailers would get filled from the top, and weighed going in and going out.

(and just to humor us all, a 25kg bag of Canada 2-row was $18 at my price)

I think that NCM has been getting a lot of pressure from HBS's and has decided to back off the group buys. Whether that's good or bad is a different story. If their prices are similar to HBS's, in all likeliness, the purchases will shift back towards HBS's (as it's easier/simpler) and will leave NCM with the same level of profit.

MC

I agree with much of what you are saying.

Another thing that played a role was some people were starting to "accidentally" buy too much, then resell on HBT or locally. I personally discouraged this behavior whenever I encountered it (not sure if I posted this to this thread or not - sorry for the repeat if I did). We strictly did not mark up or resell in our buys. However activity like that would for sure push a company to restrict policies.

Overall it could have been all or none of those things. It could be that NCM just saw they had cornered the market, now it was time to raise the price.

It has been a good run with the grain. I am happy I could participate in it while it was around. I know for me if I am paying LHBS prices, I will brew at least 50% less. Perhaps that is a good thing too. i had a feeling our luck with this would run out soon. At least my participation helped me "pay off" my killer brewing system. Even if I brew less Iwill be doing so on a hell of a system that I would not have built if I couldn't have gotten the grain so cheap.

 

[HBCBrewmaster]

I hope they are watching us - perhaps it will drive them to a change. But reality just kicked in (they will follow the money). As it has already been said, until we stop buying from them all together (via bulk buy, LHBS, whatever), they will not be interested in changing. They would need to feel the pain in their revenue. I am not sure it is possible for us to inflict that.

At least a solution has not presented itself at this point.

I would also hope that they are listening in and would frankly be surprised if they wern't. NCM clearly has the numbers on this and has made the calculation that not enough competition exists to impact their business. We the home brewer are very likely going to bend over on this. -FOR NOW! But, I would suggest that the ones who run these group buys ought to get to gether and compile their data on just how much money is flowing through these group buys. It might just make real sense to grab the bull by the horns and make some real competition. I am serious about this and would be willing to help work for a solution.

 

[mjap52]

Ugh, this sucks. I love my LHBS, but it's cheaper for me to buy 10# bags from half way across the country then to buy sacks of CM 2 Row from them.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

It's not inconceivable that one could buy from the same supplier as NCM and open a "bulk-retail warehouse". And if you're wondering who their supplier is... Read my previous post.

MC

 

[Likwid]

Assuming Home-Brew stores are the root of the issue. I still would not buy from a Maryland home-home-brew store to begin with.

1. Its still over an hour drive for me.
2. There bulk grain cost more then having the grain actually shipped to me by Midwest, more-beer, and fiftypoundsack If you want my business you at least have to beat somebody shipping to me.

I am not saying anybody is price fixing, but if you literally cost me more to pick up grain then I can have it shipped to my door, you really cant complain. You need to figure out how to beat that online retailer. If you cant and selling it at that price is a loss, perhaps gain should not be on your for sale list.