All grains wonderful, extract is undrinkable

[big_len]

Hey I appreciate the input but by being un pleased do you mean you couldn't even drink it?

In hindsight, and in comparison to what I have made since changing to all grain, they were probably not drinkable.

I'm not saying there is anything at all wrong with extract, of course, it just didn't give results for whatever I was doing and I had transitioned to all-grain before I got to the bottom of it.

 

[IvanBrew]

@mrduna1, I suspect pH might also be contributing to what you're picking up.

The water report shows pH of 8.2. It's also a little questionable, as the ions don't balance well, but... Using your water report, Brun Water predicts a room temp mash pH of 5.7, which is very reasonable. In other words, by mashing, you're correcting pH.

Steeping grains at 8.2, though, would be way out of range. High pH during boil will also affect maillard reactions. Check out the pic from braukaiser:

I still find it hard to believe that any/all of this yields "undrinkable," though, unless you have an easily offended pallet, lol. Your water is, as you said, pretty damned good to start with, so lots are brewing with worse.

 

[Yooper]

Ok so I should ignore northern brewers extract addition times? If so, and I'm using a combination of dry and liquid extract do I add a lb per gallon of the liquid or dry?Do you really think over boiling extract could lead to such horrid flavor or is it a combination of not properly treating the water and the extract? I think I will try your suggestions on a 1 gallon batch so I'm not wasting too much money drilling down the issue. Also might use distilled water on a separate 1 gallon batch to finally rule out or confirm what's going on with the water. And I do have several gallons of bad beer if you want some lol

Yes, I think you should only use 1 pound of extract (roughly, not an exact science here) per gallon of liquid in the boil.

Also, don't overdose the campden so much. You're using about 5 times a normal amount, if you're adding more than 1/4 tablet for 5 gallons of water total.

I'd get the water out the night before, and stir the campden in well and let it sit so that it's ready the next day. Then you're not trying to add campden in micro-amounts to top off water and stirring it to off-gas before adding it to your wort.

I think fixing both of those issues will fix your problem.

 

[mrduna01]

@mrduna1, I suspect pH might also be contributing to what you're picking up.

The water report shows pH of 8.2. It's also a little questionable, as the ions don't balance well, but... Using your water report, Brun Water predicts a room temp mash pH of 5.7, which is very reasonable. In other words, by mashing, you're correcting pH.

Steeping grains at 8.2, though, would be way out of range. High pH during boil will also affect maillard reactions. Check out the pic from braukaiser:

I still find it hard to believe that any/all of this yields "undrinkable," though, unless you have an easily offended pallet, lol. Your water is, as you said, pretty damned good to start with, so lots are brewing with worse.

You say "room temp" mash, what would that equate to at 150 out of curiosity? I don't have ph strips and never tested.

So many beers... so little time.

 

[IvanBrew]

You say "room temp" mash, what would that equate to at 150 out of curiosity? I don't have ph strips and never tested.

So many beers... so little time.

"Room temp" is used to commonize reporting, i.e., unless a source states otherwise, mash pH is reported at room temp. When you see the commonly published 5.2 to 5.7 band for mash pH, that's at room temperature.

The shift in pH from room temp to mash temp is very roughly .3 (so 5.7 at room temp would be 5.4 at 150ish).

 

[IvanBrew]

By the way, there are WAY too many assumptions in all of the pH numbers I'm throwing out to do anything other than provide vague/general insight. I'm in NO WAY intending to be scientific here.

The water report ions don't balance
I used a basic pale ale recipe file of mine for the assumed mash profile
I have no idea what effect your extract will have on pH
etc., etc.

Read my comments for insight, but don't get lost in the decimal points.

 

[mrduna01]

"Room temp" is used to commonize reporting, i.e., unless a source states otherwise, mash pH is reported at room temp. When you see the commonly published 5.2 to 5.7 band for mash pH, that's at room temperature.

The shift in pH from room temp to mash temp is very roughly .3 (so 5.7 at room temp would be 5.4 at 150ish).

Ok sounds like I'm good there on that front for all grain. I don't know a lot but I wouldn't think the ph of boil water would render a beer undrinkable as you hinted to earlier. Going to have to experiment with distilled I suppose. Hopefully Yooper will hit me back about the recipe additions as far as extracts go.

 

[mrduna01]

By the way, there are WAY too many assumptions in all of the pH numbers I'm throwing out to do anything other than provide vague/general insight. I'm in NO WAY intending to be scientific here.

The water report ions don't balance
I used a basic pale ale recipe file of mine for the assumed mash profile
I have no idea what effect your extract will have on pH
etc., etc.

Read my comments for insight, but don't get lost in the decimal points.

Given everyone's unique situations and setups there is few times when you can give any more specific advice than you already have... I appreciate any insights I can get.

 

[Falcon3]

I was having the same sort of issue with my brews: terrible off-taste with extract, and a noticable off-taste (same taste, less of it) of the same sort with some (most) of my AG brews. What ended up solving it for me was...................YEAST. I never pitched enough, didn't do starters, and relied heavily upon dry yeast(which my palate doesn't like as much) with which I was usually too lazy to rehydrate (losing up to half of the yeast population from the start).

Get a good strain of liquid yeast- and do a big starter- and aerate well- and see where it gets you. Extract is a bit more tough to digest for the yeast, and if they're stressed to begin with- the off tastes and leftover stuff from the extract won't get absorbed as soon- which is why some of these brews might be taking months to get from tasting terrible to tasting good-

 

[mrduna01]

I was having the same sort of issue with my brews: terrible off-taste with extract, and a noticable off-taste (same taste, less of it) of the same sort with some (most) of my AG brews. What ended up solving it for me was...................YEAST. I never pitched enough, didn't do starters, and relied heavily upon dry yeast(which my palate doesn't like as much) with which I was usually too lazy to rehydrate (losing up to half of the yeast population from the start).

Get a good strain of liquid yeast- and do a big starter- and aerate well- and see where it gets you. Extract is a bit more tough to digest for the yeast, and if they're stressed to begin with- the off tastes and leftover stuff from the extract won't get absorbed as soon- which is why some of these brews might be taking months to get from tasting terrible to tasting good-

I appreciate the input. With the last dumped batch I used wyeast and did a 1 litre starter for what was I think around a 1.050 beer and aerated well so I think I've ruled that out as well :/
Also these beers never get to the drinkable stage.

 

[fartinmartin]

Do you like beer ?

 

[Yooper]

Yes, I think you should only use 1 pound of extract (roughly, not an exact science here) per gallon of liquid in the boil.

Also, don't overdose the campden so much. You're using about 5 times a normal amount, if you're adding more than 1/4 tablet for 5 gallons of water total.

I'd get the water out the night before, and stir the campden in well and let it sit so that it's ready the next day. Then you're not trying to add campden in micro-amounts to top off water and stirring it to off-gas before adding it to your wort.

I think fixing both of those issues will fix your problem.

Ok sounds like I'm good there on that front for all grain. I don't know a lot but I wouldn't think the ph of boil water would render a beer undrinkable as you hinted to earlier. Going to have to experiment with distilled I suppose. Hopefully Yooper will hit me back about the recipe additions as far as extracts go.

What more do you need? I'm unclear what needs more clarification but willing to try!

 

[mrduna01]

Do you like beer ?

Mind explaining what exactly your asking?

 

[fartinmartin]

Is the taste your getting , beer!

 

[mrduna01]

What more do you need? I'm unclear what needs more clarification but willing to try!

I had asked earlier if it is ok to ignore the instructions addition times for the extract completely and follow your schedule and whether or not this includes the liquid addition or dry addition or both.

So many beers... so little time.

 

[IvanBrew]

Is the taste your getting , beer!

He likes his all-grain batches, but not his extract batches...

If one's taken to home brewing, especially all-grain, I generally assume they "like beer."

No?

 

[mrduna01]

Is the taste your getting , beer!

Excuse my possible ignorance but I would say that most people involved involved in homebrewing BEER are a fan of beer.

So many beers... so little time.

 

[IvanBrew]

I had asked earlier if it is ok to ignore the instructions addition times for the extract completely and follow your schedule and whether or not this includes the liquid addition or dry addition or both.

So many beers... so little time.

Given that following the instructions isn't getting you the results you want, I'd certainly try abandoning them (especially in favor of those given by someone with as much background as Yooper).

I doubt it matters whether its the dry, the liquid, or both, as long as total extract added comes in at roughly a pound per gallon for the boil.

 

[Yooper]

I had asked earlier if it is ok to ignore the instructions addition times for the extract completely and follow your schedule and whether or not this includes the liquid addition or dry addition or both.

So many beers... so little time.

Dry, liquid, whatever. If you have a 3 gallon boil, one 3 pound bag of DME or one 3.3 can of liquid or something more or less is fine.

Definitely don't over sulfite the water. It may not completely dissipate before you are using it, since it's a huge overdose. Using such a huge amount in your top off water will impact yeast health negatively, and well as leave a sulfite flavor that is unpleasant.

Between the excess maillard reactions from overboiling the extract, and the huge overdose of sulfite, I think that just changing those two things will fix your problem.

 

[bleme]

As far as tap vs distilled, I usually opt for the RO water I get for 25 cent/gallon at the machine in front of the grocery store.

 

[Yooper]

As far as tap vs distilled, I usually opt for the RO water I get for 25 cent/gallon at the machine in front of the grocery store.

That's a perfect choice- for extract AND AG brewing, and the price is right.

 

[mrduna01]

Dry, liquid, whatever. If you have a 3 gallon boil, one 3 pound bag of DME or one 3.3 can of liquid or something more or less is fine.

Definitely don't over sulfite the water. It may not completely dissipate before you are using it, since it's a huge overdose. Using such a huge amount in your top off water will impact yeast health negatively, and well as leave a sulfite flavor that is unpleasant.

Between the excess maillard reactions from overboiling the extract, and the huge overdose of sulfite, I think that just changing those two things will fix your problem.

Thank you for the clarification yooper. Ill update the thread when I've made these changes on how it goes.

 

[mrduna01]

As far as tap vs distilled, I usually opt for the RO water I get for 25 cent/gallon at the machine in front of the grocery store.

I've not seen these RO machines here but ill look around.. I can usually only find the spring water machines at the supermarket for around .89 cents which can get expensive.

 

[mrduna01]

Given that following the instructions isn't getting you the results you want, I'd certainly try abandoning them (especially in favor of those given by someone with as much background as Yooper).

I doubt it matters whether its the dry, the liquid, or both, as long as total extract added comes in at roughly a pound per gallon for the boil.

For sure wasn't trying to question yoopers advice as I've been around here long enough to value the opinions of those such as Yooper! Just was trying to get clarification.

 

[cease]

I am a newer brewer but I wanted to throw this out there; you said you seep your specialty grains at 160*, I could be completely off here but I was under the impression that you want to add the grains as soon as you turn on the heat and take them out at 170* which should take around 30 mins. If you are seeping at 160* for 30 mins could that cause your off flavors like squeezing the bag can?




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[Yooper]

I am a newer brewer but I wanted to throw this out there; you said you seep your specialty grains at 160*, I could be completely off here but I was under the impression that you want to add the grains as soon as you turn on the heat and take them out at 170* which should take around 30 mins. If you are seeping at 160* for 30 mins could that cause your off flavors like squeezing the bag can?




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No, steeping at 150-160 for 20-30 minutes is actually the preferred method for steeping (although putting the grains in cold water won't hurt).

Squeezing the bag won't extract tannins, either- that's an old wives tale.

 

[cease]

No, steeping at 150-160 for 20-30 minutes is actually the preferred method for steeping (although putting the grains in cold water won't hurt).



Squeezing the bag won't extract tannins, either- that's an old wives tale.

Good to know!

I've had great luck with NB kits, just poured a pint of Irish Red from my first keg 😄 I ignore NB's LME schedule though and use about 1/3 at 60 then pour the rest at 15 mins.


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[evanwiley]

I have to say that Cooper is my favourite extract and my brew store carries fresh which is great every time

 

[JPrather]

Have you ever done a partial mash?

Anyway, I definitely recommend giving another extract kit a try, using all RO or distilled water from a local supermarket or water store, and moving all but a few pounds of the extract additions to the end of the boil.

 

[cgunnyon]

I did a extract recipe that was supposed to be a fat tire clone and it tasted nothing like fat tire. Recently tried a dosequis amber and it looked and tasted exactly like the beer I made, go figure .

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