All grain system or kegging system

[IPAMike]

I've brewed 3 extract batches so far in my homebrewing "career" and I want to up my game.
Given the choice, would you spend the money on an all grain brewing system? Or, would you first invest in a kegging (kegerator) system?
But....I'm sure nobody on here has opinions on this, right?
I'm willing to invest $600-$700 at present.

 

[Velnerj]

I think you could swing both on that budget. But what's your current set up/equipment profile for your extract brews? Tell us kettle volumes and batch sizes as well as cooking method (stove top, propane, electric).

Kegging usually costs around $500

Brew in a bag (BIAB) simple set up is around $100

 

[AlexKay]

Think about going “all grain” with regular old BIAB. Costs will be minimal (maybe just a bag), you can work out any kinks in your process, and you’ll have a better idea of what you’re looking for if you then decide to spring for the all-in-one system a little down the road.

There’s some (good) chance you’ll be happy with a mesh bag, in which case you spring for the kegging supplies.

Also consider spending ~$200 now on a small chest freezer and a temperature controller for fermentation. It’s not shiny like the other two things, but it will absolutely improve your beer.

 

[RM-MN]

I started all grain with only buying a pair of paint strainer bags (a pair because they come two to a package) and a cheap Corona style mill. By using the same 5 gallon stock pot that I used for extract brewing and making half size batches that made my total outlay for starting all grain less than $25 which in your budget would leave you with enough dollars to get a fermentation chamber (biggest improvement in flavor for me was temperature control) and a kegging system. Two of the big advantages of BIAB to start is the minimal cost and no worries about stuck mash or sparge. The bag creates such a large filter area that there will be plenty of places for the wort to get out.

 

[hottpeper13]

If space is a concern a side by side fridge/freezer can be made into a kegerator on the freezer side(holds 3 cornys. and fermentation on the fridge side. Mine can fit 2 - 6.5 gal big mouth or I can remove the shelf and fit my 15 gal Fermzilla. I got mine for free,and it's awesome.

 

[ITV]

I did both around the same time, all-grain was slightly before kegging.

My suggestion is to give it alot of thought up front. There are many options for both all-grain and kegging systems. If you can envision your "ideal" setup 5, 10 years down the road then plan for that now. Plan for a system that you can add on to as well (RIMS, HERMS, etc). Don't plan your system on what someone else did unless it suits your "ideal" system. This is much easier said than done, nevertheless give it alot of thought.

I started out with a converted keg brew kettle on a propane burner with gravity feed cooler mash tun. I since have converted my propane burner to natural gas and added two pumps to transfer wort and fly sparge. Since I can brew up to 10 gal batches, I added a larger rectangular cooler to mash high gravity batches. I also use it to store my 50 lb 2-row bag of grain. I also added an electric RIMS system to my system that I use my smaller pump for recirculation. This allows me to easily do step mashes.

For my kegerator I use a 7.2cuft chest freezer (with a collar) which I have 4 taps and provisions to carb a 5th keg. Later on I added a Spike CF-10 conical and a seperate upright freezer as my fermentation chamber. I can also use this as a stand-alone fridge/freezer if needed when not used for fermenting. None of my previous purchases are collecting dust.

I know brewers who failed to do this and they are switching out their equipment making the first few purchases obsolete. This approach will cost you more money in the long run as well as take up more space.

 

[IPAMike]

I think you could swing both on that budget. But what's your current set up/equipment profile for your extract brews? Tell us kettle volumes and batch sizes as well as cooking method (stove top, propane, electric).

Kegging usually costs around $500

Brew in a bag (BIAB) simple set up is around $100

Thanks! Right now brewing in the kitchen on gas stovetop. Works well for the boil of 5 gal. batches. Although I don't do a full volume boil.
I'm leaning toward kegging because if I use a chest freezer or kegerator I could also ferment in them and have more control that way. Temperature control is my biggest challenge right now.

 

[IPAMike]

Think about going “all grain” with regular old BIAB. Costs will be minimal (maybe just a bag), you can work out any kinks in your process, and you’ll have a better idea of what you’re looking for if you then decide to spring for the all-in-one system a little down the road.

There’s some (good) chance you’ll be happy with a mesh bag, in which case you spring for the kegging supplies.

Also consider spending ~$200 now on a small chest freezer and a temperature controller for fermentation. It’s not shiny like the other two things, but it will absolutely improve your beer.

You're right. I guess when I think of "all grain" I think of several vessels (Igloos). But, I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be that way.

 

[IPAMike]

Think about going “all grain” with regular old BIAB. Costs will be minimal (maybe just a bag), you can work out any kinks in your process, and you’ll have a better idea of what you’re looking for if you then decide to spring for the all-in-one system a little down the road.

There’s some (good) chance you’ll be happy with a mesh bag, in which case you spring for the kegging supplies.

Also consider spending ~$200 now on a small chest freezer and a temperature controller for fermentation. It’s not shiny like the other two things, but it will absolutely improve your beer.

Thanks for the tips! I have considered BIAB. I've come to realize temperature control might be the #1 issue for better beer.

 

[IPAMike]

I started all grain with only buying a pair of paint strainer bags (a pair because they come two to a package) and a cheap Corona style mill. By using the same 5 gallon stock pot that I used for extract brewing and making half size batches that made my total outlay for starting all grain less than $25 which in your budget would leave you with enough dollars to get a fermentation chamber (biggest improvement in flavor for me was temperature control) and a kegging system. Two of the big advantages of BIAB to start is the minimal cost and no worries about stuck mash or sparge. The bag creates such a large filter area that there will be plenty of places for the wort to get out.

Thanks! I'd definitely like to "streamline" my process. Temperature control has definitely been on my mind. It can be challenging without some mechanical assistance.

 

[IPAMike]

If space is a concern a side by side fridge/freezer can be made into a kegerator on the freezer side(holds 3 cornys. and fermentation on the fridge side. Mine can fit 2 - 6.5 gal big mouth or I can remove the shelf and fit my 15 gal Fermzilla. I got mine for free,and it's awesome.

Thanks! I might need to start monitoring craigslist.

 

[IPAMike]

I did both around the same time, all-grain was slightly before kegging.

My suggestion is to give it alot of thought up front. There are many options for both all-grain and kegging systems. If you can envision your "ideal" setup 5, 10 years down the road then plan for that now. Plan for a system that you can add on to as well (RIMS, HERMS, etc). Don't plan your system on what someone else did unless it suits your "ideal" system. This is much easier said than done, nevertheless give it alot of thought.

I started out with a converted keg brew kettle on a propane burner with gravity feed cooler mash tun. I since have converted my propane burner to natural gas and added two pumps to transfer wort and fly sparge. Since I can brew up to 10 gal batches, I added a larger rectangular cooler to mash high gravity batches. I also use it to store my 50 lb 2-row bag of grain. I also added an electric RIMS system to my system that I use my smaller pump for recirculation. This allows me to easily do step mashes.

For my kegerator I use a 7.2cuft chest freezer (with a collar) which I have 4 taps and provisions to carb a 5th keg. Later on I added a Spike CF-10 conical and a seperate upright freezer as my fermentation chamber. I can also use this as a stand-alone fridge/freezer if needed when not used for fermenting. None of my previous purchases are collecting dust.

I know brewers who failed to do this and they are switching out their equipment making the first few purchases obsolete. This approach will cost you more money in the long run as well as take up more space.

Thanks! Yeah, I definitely would rather make the right choices for me now rather than switch-up later and waste $.

 

[Velnerj]

@IPAMike from your responses it seems to me the obvious choice is to go for a fermentation temp control situation. You'll see the biggest impact to your beer with that.
With a mini fridge it can double as a kegerator, but you may have pipeline problems (you won't be able to ferment and tap a keg at the same time). Nevertheless a mini fridge is a good investment for a homebrewer on many levels anyway.

 

[IPAMike]

@IPAMike from your responses it seems to me the obvious choice is to go for a fermentation temp control situation. You'll see the biggest impact to your beer with that.
With a mini fridge it can double as a kegerator, but you may have pipeline problems (you won't be able to ferment and tap a keg at the same time). Nevertheless a mini fridge is a good investment for a homebrewer on many levels anyway.

Thanks! Yeah, the responses I've gotten have lead me in that direction. Since all-grain brewing can be accomplished for much less money than kegging/temp control, spending the cash on the later seems the right way to go.

 

[Golddiggie]

Personally, I went all grain months before I started kegging batches. Doing full batch size boils is also a way to improve your brews. I went through a couple of different wort chillers before getting the one I have now (VERY fast chill times).

While I did start with the [nylon] mesh bag BIAB method, there's better options these days. Get one that uses the stainless 'bag' and you'll avoid scorching the bag on the bottom of the kettle. One of the things I didn't like about BIAB was removing the bag before the boil. Especially in the kitchen I was brewing in (stove was not close to the sink).

Keep in mind, once you start down the all grain path, the chances of your hardware changing a LOT over the years is very high. I've gone through at least four or five different configurations since starting. BIAB, three vessel with cooler MT, different cooler MT, three vessel keggle (propane burner) to finally three vessel electric (Spike+). I've also gone from PET carboys to stainless kegmenters to conical fermenters (with glycol chiller and heating pads). I had a fermentation chamber for a while, but got rid of that when I went to the conical fermenters. More space efficient this way. Plus with them on wheels, it's very easy to move from the garage brewery to basement fermenting area.

 

[IPAMike]

Personally, I went all grain months before I started kegging batches. Doing full batch size boils is also a way to improve your brews. I went through a couple of different wort chillers before getting the one I have now (VERY fast chill times).

While I did start with the [nylon] mesh bag BIAB method, there's better options these days. Get one that uses the stainless 'bag' and you'll avoid scorching the bag on the bottom of the kettle. One of the things I didn't like about BIAB was removing the bag before the boil. Especially in the kitchen I was brewing in (stove was not close to the sink).

Keep in mind, once you start down the all grain path, the chances of your hardware changing a LOT over the years is very high. I've gone through at least four or five different configurations since starting. BIAB, three vessel with cooler MT, different cooler MT, three vessel keggle (propane burner) to finally three vessel electric (Spike+). I've also gone from PET carboys to stainless kegmenters to conical fermenters (with glycol chiller and heating pads). I had a fermentation chamber for a while, but got rid of that when I went to the conical fermenters. More space efficient this way. Plus with them on wheels, it's very easy to move from the garage brewery to basement fermenting area.

Thanks for the good info. What did you use for heating pads? I certainly would rather "try" to settle on a system that I'd use for a longer period of time vs. changing (spending $) every few months.

 

[Golddiggie]

Thanks for the good info. What did you use for heating pads? I certainly would rather "try" to settle on a system that I'd use for a longer period of time vs. changing (spending $) every few months.

I have two Spike conical fermenters (CF10 model). I ordered the heating pads/things they offer for these. Got a controller for it since I'm using the IceMaster Max 4 glycol chiller for keeping things cool (during warmer months) as well as chilling down to either harvest the yeast, or chill to carbonate in fermenter/conical. Once carbonated, I send part of the batch into a keg (2.5-3 gallons) and then can the rest.

 

[RM-MN]

Begin immediately practicing all grain by using the pot you already have to do a 2 1/2 gallon batch on your stovetop. You'll learn about all grain that way and will know better what the next equipment purchase should be.

When you do an extract kit it will be for a 5 gallon batch. When you do all grain you can make whatever size batch fits your equipment. Just scale the amounts for the batch size. A 2 1/2 gallon batch takes just 1/2 of what would be needed for a 5 gallon batch.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Begin immediately practicing all grain by using the pot you already have to do a 2 1/2 gallon batch on your stovetop. You'll learn about all grain that way and will know better what the next equipment purchase should be.

In my book, this is the best way to get started with all-grain brewing. If you have a basic equipment kit and a 5-gallon kettle, really all you need to add is a $10-15 BIAB bag (or paint strainer bags if that fits your style). You can ferment a 2.5-gallon batch in a full sized fermenter, but I am a huge fan of my 3-gallon Fermonster fermenters.

I do still brew an occasional 5-gallon batch, and I often brew a 5-gallon batch and split that with two yeast, but 2.5 gallon stovetop batches is a real sweet spot. For me, the creation, planning, execution, and sharing are more important than just having a lot of beer around to drink. I also enjoy trying out new things and the constant learning of brewing. Smaller batches let me do the things I love more often and have more variety of beer around. I can also whip out a small batch in my kitchen on just about any random evening.

 

[RM-MN]

You can ferment a 2.5-gallon batch in a full sized fermenter, but I am a huge fan of my 3-gallon Fermonster fermenters.

I tend to stretch the limits on my 5 gallon pot and my 2 1/2 gallon batches wouldn't fit into your 3 gallon Fermonster.

 

[madscientist451]

I certainly would rather "try" to settle on a system that I'd use for a longer period of time vs. changing (spending $) every few months.

You don't need a "system" to make wort. Making wort is simple and cheap, people choose to make it complicated and expensive, but that's because they enjoy doing that, not because they have to. Many people complain about pulling the bag out of the pot with BIAB brewing, you can get around this by using a $20 5 gallon cooler and put your BIAB bag in that and then drain to your kettle. You'll need a cheap 16 quart pot to heat your sparge water (another $20), but you can set the whole thing up for under $75, or just BIAB in your existing pot and go with that.
For $600, get two small chest freezers and temp controllers, one for fermentation temp control and one to hold your kegs. Look around for used kegs, CO2 tanks and regulators. Serve your beer using simple picnic taps and 5' of tubing. If you get tired of brewing, or want to take a break from it, the freezers can be used for their original purpose, while an expensive "system" will just gather dust. You could also just get one freezer and use it as both fermentation chamber/kegerator, but not at the same time. You can ferment many beers using ambient temperatures as the seasons change. I brew lagers in the winter/spring using the cold temps in my chilly basement.
If you want to make IPAs, fermenting in a keg w/spunding valve and then doing a closed transfer to a serving keg is a good way to avoid oxidation.
So in many ways, getting kegs before brewing gear is a good choice.
You can always add a brewing system later if you want to.

 

[eric19312]

Planning my brewing investments has been immensely enjoyable part of the hobby. I do have gear that is gathering dust and a bunch of gear I've given away to new brewers to make room for upgrades. You have mentioned three areas for investment and they are all valid - brewhouse, fermentation temperature control, kegging. If you stick with the hobby my guess is eventually you will invest in all of these, and if you are here a long time possibly more than once. Here are a few quick thoughts on priority and order of investment...

Kegging - priority kind of depends on how much you like/dislike bottling process and if you have a place to put a kegerator/keezer. I did about 50 batches in bottles before switching to kegs. Never really hated the bottling process itself, but managing bottle inventory (dirty, clean, aging, conditioning, ready to drink) was an issue. I like suggestion above to go with chest freezer. You can start with picnic taps. If you get tired of beer you can use if for its original purpose. If you get tired of brewing but still like beer you can get Sanke taps and use it to dispense commercial kegs.

Brewhouse - I'd hold off on major expense here until you are sure you like making beer and have a pretty good idea of batch scale you will be happy with. I went from 5 gallon to 11 gallon to 18 gallon batches over my brewing history up to now. If I'd spent a whole lot on 5 gallon system that would have been wasted. Other issue is where you will be brewing and how you will power your brewhouse. Right now you are a kitchen brewer...do you plan to move out of the kitchen? For power do you want to go electric or propane (or maybe natural gas...love my NG).

Fermentation temperature control. For me that has been really important. I built a controller around batch 4 (an old fridge controlled by an STC-1000) and seemed to make an immediate and dramatic improvement in my beer. I've prioritized temp control ever since but stuck with fermentor in fridge/freezer rather than go the glycol route. Pros and cons either way happy to debate but for a new brewer I might suggest another solution...kveik yeast. Not clear this yeast actually needs much effort in temperature control...and what it needs will tend more on keeping it a little warmer than room temperature which is cheap and easy to do.

So here is my suggestion...
set up a keezer (chest freezer) without damaging the freezer for now...picnic taps inside the freezer, budget regulator and tank, a couple used kegs
low cost brewhouse to deliver 5.5 gallon batches...probably an inexpensive 10 gallon pot with a valve (or add a valve easy enough), a turkey burner and a bag.
experiment with kveik yeast ... control temps with a fermwrap and an inkbird.

I think you could probably have all three and stick within your budget. Anyway @IPAMike, welcome to the hobby, good luck thanks for the thread--this sort of planning has always been for me a fun part of the hobby.

 

[RM-MN]

You'll need a cheap 16 quart pot to heat your sparge water (another $20)

Skip the pot and use cold water. It does the same thing for $20 less.

 

[ssgearhart]

IPAMike
I brewed for 15 years or so a long time ago now. And am looking to get back into the craft. I personally would spend my money on a kegging system first. I decided a long time ago that bottling sucks. So, and this is just me, I would make sure I had a way to carb and dispense first. Your already set up to brew extract, so do a few more more batches with the equipment you have while you set up and dial in your dispensing system.
Then you can step up to partial mash, BIAB, or full on Spike 3 vessel all grain, whatever you want, as you can later. For me it's simple, I will not bottle anymore, so there is no reason to make it if I can't serve it.

 

[madscientist451]

Skip the pot and use cold water. It does the same thing for $20 less.

Yes, you're right, but if your sparge water has been heated, you'll get the brew boiling faster. I've moved on from BIAB in a cooler, but when I did it, I'd heat the sparge water during the mash figuring it would cut my brew day down a little.

 

[IPAMike]

You don't need a "system" to make wort. Making wort is simple and cheap, people choose to make it complicated and expensive, but that's because they enjoy doing that, not because they have to. Many people complain about pulling the bag out of the pot with BIAB brewing, you can get around this by using a $20 5 gallon cooler and put your BIAB bag in that and then drain to your kettle. You'll need a cheap 16 quart pot to heat your sparge water (another $20), but you can set the whole thing up for under $75, or just BIAB in your existing pot and go with that.
For $600, get two small chest freezers and temp controllers, one for fermentation temp control and one to hold your kegs. Look around for used kegs, CO2 tanks and regulators. Serve your beer using simple picnic taps and 5' of tubing. If you get tired of brewing, or want to take a break from it, the freezers can be used for their original purpose, while an expensive "system" will just gather dust. You could also just get one freezer and use it as both fermentation chamber/kegerator, but not at the same time. You can ferment many beers using ambient temperatures as the seasons change. I brew lagers in the winter/spring using the cold temps in my chilly basement.
If you want to make IPAs, fermenting in a keg w/spunding valve and then doing a closed transfer to a serving keg is a good way to avoid oxidation.
So in many ways, getting kegs before brewing gear is a good choice.
You can always add a brewing system later if you want to.

Appreciate the feedback!

 

[IPAMike]

Planning my brewing investments has been immensely enjoyable part of the hobby. I do have gear that is gathering dust and a bunch of gear I've given away to new brewers to make room for upgrades. You have mentioned three areas for investment and they are all valid - brewhouse, fermentation temperature control, kegging. If you stick with the hobby my guess is eventually you will invest in all of these, and if you are here a long time possibly more than once. Here are a few quick thoughts on priority and order of investment...

Kegging - priority kind of depends on how much you like/dislike bottling process and if you have a place to put a kegerator/keezer. I did about 50 batches in bottles before switching to kegs. Never really hated the bottling process itself, but managing bottle inventory (dirty, clean, aging, conditioning, ready to drink) was an issue. I like suggestion above to go with chest freezer. You can start with picnic taps. If you get tired of beer you can use if for its original purpose. If you get tired of brewing but still like beer you can get Sanke taps and use it to dispense commercial kegs.

Brewhouse - I'd hold off on major expense here until you are sure you like making beer and have a pretty good idea of batch scale you will be happy with. I went from 5 gallon to 11 gallon to 18 gallon batches over my brewing history up to now. If I'd spent a whole lot on 5 gallon system that would have been wasted. Other issue is where you will be brewing and how you will power your brewhouse. Right now you are a kitchen brewer...do you plan to move out of the kitchen? For power do you want to go electric or propane (or maybe natural gas...love my NG).

Fermentation temperature control. For me that has been really important. I built a controller around batch 4 (an old fridge controlled by an STC-1000) and seemed to make an immediate and dramatic improvement in my beer. I've prioritized temp control ever since but stuck with fermentor in fridge/freezer rather than go the glycol route. Pros and cons either way happy to debate but for a new brewer I might suggest another solution...kveik yeast. Not clear this yeast actually needs much effort in temperature control...and what it needs will tend more on keeping it a little warmer than room temperature which is cheap and easy to do.

So here is my suggestion...
set up a keezer (chest freezer) without damaging the freezer for now...picnic taps inside the freezer, budget regulator and tank, a couple used kegs
low cost brewhouse to deliver 5.5 gallon batches...probably an inexpensive 10 gallon pot with a valve (or add a valve easy enough), a turkey burner and a bag.
experiment with kveik yeast ... control temps with a fermwrap and an inkbird.

I think you could probably have all three and stick within your budget. Anyway @IPAMike, welcome to the hobby, good luck thanks for the thread--this sort of planning has always been for me a fun part of the hobby.

Thanks very much! I've pretty much decided on a chest freezer that I can ferment & dispense in.

 

[bracconiere]

this basically my setup for all grain...

https://www.wayfair.com/Artisan--Ar...yMpbz-3EOmFqhpuMdlguNVhEkaZsf0i4aAhVvEALw_wcB
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/ru...ksIrqvAaTToSWj_eCOkYI1jtXzqNdC-waAjL7EALw_wcB
some bits and pieces, for the cooler....


for kegging, i just use a cheap used fridge and 6 kegs, kegs were like $30-40 years back....and the 20# co2 tank was $250, regulator $100....once again, bunch nickel and dime odds and ends....

edit: i should mention, i accumulated kegs slowly, started with one...then someone gave me another one, bought another couple....then someone gave me another one as a birthday present...

 

[mashpaddled]

How badly do you want to get into kegging/away from bottling and how much do you want to spend on an all grain brewing system?

You can always bottle until you can afford a kegging set up unless you really hate bottling.

You could afford to do both on your budget unless you want a fancy brewery. If you do then I would say buy the brewery you want and bottle until you can afford a kegging set up you like. I wouldn't get something you won't enjoy brewing on or will want to upgrade fairly soon just to do both but I don't hate bottling so much that it was a priority to start kegging.

 

[IPAMike]

How badly do you want to get into kegging/away from bottling and how much do you want to spend on an all grain brewing system?

You can always bottle until you can afford a kegging set up unless you really hate bottling.

You could afford to do both on your budget unless you want a fancy brewery. If you do then I would say buy the brewery you want and bottle until you can afford a kegging set up you like. I wouldn't get something you won't enjoy brewing on or will want to upgrade fairly soon just to do both but I don't hate bottling so much that it was a priority to start kegging.

Don't mind bottling. Although that could change in time.
I've decided to give the Brewzilla a go. It's much less expensive than some other "systems", so I'm not investing a mint if things change later.
Appreciate the feedback!