All grain starter

[Raisoshi]

I need a 2l starter and DME where I live costs 3.5 times more than just using the grains. Of course it is easier but if I'm going to be doing lots of starters like I'm planning to it quickly adds up. Also I'm all about maximizing quality while minimizing cost

I've thought of a process and would like some input whether there's anything wrong with it. Here we go:

Mash:
- Single infusion BIAB
- Duration:2h "Place and forget" kinda mash, long for a highly fermentable wort
- Volume 3L
- Initial temperature: 154 Worried it'll drop too fast due to such a low volume, but Beta-amylase is active down to 130 so maybe it'll be okay? Possibly cut mash short if it goes below 130 and start at a higher temp next time.
- Vessel: Small cooler
- Efficiency: 60%
- Target pre-boil gravity: 1.035

Boil
- 15min Boil Sole purpose of sterilizing wort.
- No hops.

Then cool and transfer to starter vessel, pitch, turn stir plate on and leave it for a day. How's it sound?

 

[WayFrae]

Sounds like it would work just fine. Some people will brew a larger batch like that and then pressure can the starter wort in mason jars for later use.

 

[ColoHox]

Sounds good. A few hop pellets in your boil wouldn't hurt anything and could stave off contamination.

 

[djt17]

Since going All Grain, my starters have been all grain too. Your process is similar to mine except I only mash for 60 min & target an OG of 1.040

 

[eman_resu]

If you're going through all that trouble anyway, why not make a small beer out of it? Boil some hops with it for the 15 mins (something that won't interfere with the main batch, calculate suitable ibus), let ferment for a week or so (no stirplate, calculate size for proper yeast growth), rack to secondary on brewday before pitching the yeast into the main batch. It kinda feels weird to bottle a batch that tiny, but it's still a little more diversity in the pipeline... and no beer goes down the drain

EDIT: Hmm, didn't think about dms though...

 

[Raisoshi]

Thanks everyone! Will probably be doing this tomorrow.

If you're going through all that trouble anyway, why not make a small beer out of it? Boil some hops with it for the 15 mins (something that won't interfere with the main batch, calculate suitable ibus), let ferment for a week or so (no stirplate, calculate size for proper yeast growth), rack to secondary on brewday before pitching the yeast into the main batch. It kinda feels weird to bottle a batch that tiny, but it's still a little more diversity in the pipeline... and no beer goes down the drain

EDIT: Hmm, didn't think about dms though...

That would add a whole lot of trouble for such a small batch.

Longer boil, bigger batch meaning my 1.5gal pot might not be enough(next biggest pot is 10gal), having to leave my fermentation refrigerator on for the sole purpose of keeping this small batch cold.

 

[feinbera]

Sounds like it would work just fine. Some people will brew a larger batch like that and then pressure can the starter wort in mason jars for later use.

Anything wrong with just throwing it in the freezer, then thawing, decanting only what you need, quickly boiling that to re-sterilize and re-freezing the remainder?

 

[midfielder5]

I freeze individual portions of AG wort, which comes from extra volume not needed for the BK and/or I sparge a bit extra during the brew session. Then defrost, boil for 10 min, use as a starter.

 

[WayFrae]

Anything wrong with just throwing it in the freezer, then thawing, decanting only what you need, quickly boiling that to re-sterilize and re-freezing the remainder?

I feel like it would be easier to freeze it in the sizes you need so you don't need to thaw and decant anything. You would just throw the frozen wort into the pot and bring it to a boil.

 

[ophillium]

Trying this (literally) right now - thanks for the guide Raisoshi.

Anyone else have insights on canning the wort? Presumably it could be stored at room temperature, but would light degrade it in any way? And how long could one feasibly store it? It would be great to do a single batch just for starter each year and not have to crowd my freezer with it.

phil

 

[55x11]

Trying this (literally) right now - thanks for the guide Raisoshi.

Anyone else have insights on canning the wort? Presumably it could be stored at room temperature, but would light degrade it in any way? And how long could one feasibly store it? It would be great to do a single batch just for starter each year and not have to crowd my freezer with it.

phil

I would be careful about keeping wort at room temperature. There is no alcohol to protect it and infection bugs can easily get in and start eating it. So make sure sanitation is impeccable and maybe store it at cool temperatures.

 

[OleBrewing]

I freeze individual portions of AG wort, which comes from extra volume not needed for the BK and/or I sparge a bit extra during the brew session. Then defrost, boil for 10 min, use as a starter.

This what I do after sparging final runnings to th bk, I rinse the mt bed with some extra sparge water. Measure the gravity put in 2 liter bottles and freeze. Then when I make a starter I add a little dme to adjust as it needs.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Trying this (literally) right now - thanks for the guide Raisoshi.

Anyone else have insights on canning the wort? Presumably it could be stored at room temperature, but would light degrade it in any way? And how long could one feasibly store it? It would be great to do a single batch just for starter each year and not have to crowd my freezer with it.

phil

Do not can wort unless you can pressure can it. Boil canning will not suffice, and will risk botulism. You could do a water bath and then put it in the freezer if you wanted to.

 

[wilserbrewer]

A guy in another thread claims to use pasteurized apple juice straight out of the bottles for making starters, then crashes and decants well to minimize AJ in the yeast slurry....sounds good and easy to me, and you get some hard cider as a bonus.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Let me know if you find that thread. Apple juice seems like a strange choice, as it lacks a lot of the nutrients that yeast need. Not sure what that would do to the new cells.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Let me know if you find that thread. Apple juice seems like a strange choice, as it lacks a lot of the nutrients that yeast need. Not sure what that would do to the new cells.

It's in the "canned starter wort thread", available from NB I believe. I don't think he mentioned using nutrient or not. I have used the bottled drink "Malta Goya" for starters fwiw. Costs like 80 cents a bottle at the super market.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I need a 2l starter and DME where I live costs 3.5 times more than just using the grains. Of course it is easier but if I'm going to be doing lots of starters like I'm planning to it quickly adds up. Also I'm all about maximizing quality while minimizing cost
?

If your plan includes using the same yeast strain repeatedly, have you considered just re pitching harvested yeast from your fermenter? No starter reqd.

 

[GrogNerd]

good article (plus links) from Chris Colby here about storing wort for starters.

there is risk of botulism, and boiling -before or after- is just not sufficient. as @pricelessbrewing said above, pressure canning it is the only way to prevent it

 

[wilserbrewer]

....as @pricelessbrewing said above, pressure canning it is the only way to prevent it

Or freezing starter wort? How about filling sanitized water bottles with boiled and chilled starter wort and tossing them in the freezer? Thaw and use promptly? Boil again if paranoid idk?


Oops, sorry freezing already mentioned.

 

[budbo]

Why make this difficult, if DME is expensive locally, order it on line. simple solution

 

[GrogNerd]

Why make this difficult, if DME is expensive locally, order it on line. simple solution

Because international shipping is practically free!

 

[kombat]

I would be careful about keeping wort at room temperature. There is no alcohol to protect it and infection bugs can easily get in and start eating it. So make sure sanitation is impeccable and maybe store it at cool temperatures.

That's why you can it. It kills any potential bugs in the solution, rendering it safe to store at room temperature indefinitely. There's nothing left alive inside to possibly contaminate it.

Your sanitation does NOT need to be impeccable, because you're not sanitizing. You're sterilizing. And everything in the pressure canner will be sterilized. After the canner cools and you open the lid, there's no need to be "sanitary," as the jars are sealed.

 

[kombat]

This what I do after sparging final runnings to th bk, I rinse the mt bed with some extra sparge water. Measure the gravity put in 2 liter bottles and freeze. Then when I make a starter I add a little dme to adjust as it needs.

In my experience, the tail end of my sparge runnings have very low gravity, like in the 1.010 range. At such low gravity, you risk extracting tannins, and you'd need to add so much DME to get it up to 1.040 as to not even make it worth the risk.

 

[GrogNerd]

It's not just the bugs that are the problem, but the toxins they create.

Boiling will kill the bugs, you need to pressure cook (240°, IIRC) to neutralize the toxin

 

[wilserbrewer]

It's not just the bugs that are the problem, but the toxins they create.

Boiling will kill the bugs, you need to pressure cook (240°, IIRC) to neutralize the toxin

Would an infected starter exhibit physical signs such as a bulged lid, a jar no longer under vacuum, or obvious smell and or physical signs?

Not that I want to play with botulism by any means, just curious.

Obviously, any starter needs to pass all the easy sniff and see tests.

 

[ColoHox]

Would an infected starter exhibit physical signs such as a bulged lid, a jar no longer under vacuum, or obvious smell and or physical signs?

Not that I want to play with botulism by any means, just curious.

Obviously, any starter needs to pass all the easy sniff and see tests.

I'm sure you know what the usual beer spoilage bugs smell like. Clostridium has a very foul odor (think horse barn or decaying grass) when cultured. Many species of Clostridium also produce gas, so if the vacuum is broken or gas comes out of solution when you open the jar, I'd say it's a goner.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Not sure how small kitchen appliances translate to your region but...
Have you considered doing a small all grain biab mash in a rice cooker or slow cooker? Completely hands off, my slow cooker holds a temp of 140-150 on low and 180~ on high. Rice cooker is 130 on warm and boil on high. ymmv

 

[55x11]

That's why you can it. It kills any potential bugs in the solution, rendering it safe to store at room temperature indefinitely. There's nothing left alive inside to possibly contaminate it.

Your sanitation does NOT need to be impeccable, because you're not sanitizing. You're sterilizing. And everything in the pressure canner will be sterilized. After the canner cools and you open the lid, there's no need to be "sanitary," as the jars are sealed.

I must have misunderstood - wasn't sure if the question was about canning it under pressure, sure, I see your point.

 

[OleBrewing]

In my experience, the tail end of my sparge runnings have very low gravity, like in the 1.010 range. At such low gravity, you risk extracting tannins, and you'd need to add so much DME to get it up to 1.040 as to not even make it worth the risk.

Yep, when I plan for starter wort I adjust the grain bill accordingly to get me to around 1.03 of final run off.

 

[GrogNerd]

Would an infected starter exhibit physical signs such as a bulged lid, a jar no longer under vacuum, or obvious smell and or physical signs?

Not that I want to play with botulism by any means, just curious.

Obviously, any starter needs to pass all the easy sniff and see tests.

oh, I have no idea... I'm just going by what I read on the internet

I'm pretty sure the risks are minimal, as long as you don't leave it out a couple days before freezing. It might even be OK in the fridge.

risks are about the same as no-chill wort cooling and you've never gotten sick from that, have you? (I googled it and you came up in a previous HBT thread having said you no-chill)