All grain brews have the same "tart" taste - Please help!

[chickypad]

You're right, full volume mash thickness will depend on other factors such as gravity and efficiency. I was assuming an OG of 1.050 with an 80% mash efficiency and a 90 minute boil, none of which need be the case here.

True, and BIAB'ing you lose less about 30% less water to absorption. I get around 76-77% efficiency but I rarely brew anything below about 1.052. The one 1.038 beer I did this year I see now was about 4 qt per lb.

 

[dsaavedra]

But it still seems like we don't really know what we're troubleshooting. Undrinkable vs. not really anything wrong with them - hard to know what we're looking for.

I know the problem all too well and I feel really bad that I am asking you guys for help when I can't really pinpoint what I find wrong with the beer.....

It is pretty much undrinkable to me, I don't like it at all. But the LHBS people said that there didn't seem to be anything obviously wrong with it, and it tasted just like that local brewery's pale ale, so maybe there is nothing wrong with it, I just really don't like it.

Still, I don't see how I could find a recipe that gets so much praise here undrinkable, which makes me think I did something wrong.

 

[MaltedBayerl]

I'm having issues with all of my lighter beers having the same off taste. I recently read and reread several things about water chemistry and I'm convinced that my highly alkaline water is to blame. I hadn't been adjusting my water at all and according to calculations, my mash pH was probably around 6 most of the time. Everything else I'm doing seems to be good, standard practice so it almost has to be the water. I bought some lactic acid that I used last time but I haven't tasted the results yet. Trying to understand water chemistry is frustrating, but I think I'm almost, sort of, just barely starting to get the gist of the basics.

 

[McKnuckle]

Still, I don't see how I could find a recipe that gets so much praise here undrinkable, which makes me think I did something wrong.

But it's still possible. I brewed another famously popular homebrew recipe and didn't really like it, even though there were no technical issues with the brew.

Why not pick a commercial beer that you definitely like, and brew a clone recipe of that?

 

[McKnuckle]

I'm convinced that my highly alkaline water is to blame. I hadn't been adjusting my water at all and according to calculations, my mash pH was probably around 6 most of the time...I bought some lactic acid that I used last time but I haven't tasted the results yet.

Ditto. High alkalinity and lighter beers can product a very unpleasant taste. This plagued my first 10 brews before I finally sucked it up and had my water analyzed.

Before resorting just to lactic acid in order to bring down mash pH, find out the mineral content of your water. Adding gypsum (for SO4), CaCl (for Ca), and Epsom (for Mg) will also lower pH. That way you add beneficial mineral content and kill two birds with one stone. Lactic acid in larger amounts is supposedly perceptible in the taste.

 

[dsaavedra]

But it's still possible. I brewed another famously popular homebrew recipe and didn't really like it, even though there were no technical issues with the brew.

Why not pick a commercial beer that you definitely like, and brew a clone recipe of that?

This is the plan... Thinking of trying a SNPA clone next or maybe an IPA like DFH60. I see Yooper and BM have some popular clones of these beers - any suggestions for other good clone recipes?

 

[AndMan3030]

I'd say its an infection. they can be subtle.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Im having the exact same problem, except I have a ph meter so I know my ph is fine. So frustrating.

I have a three vessel Single tier. I went from batch sparging to biab to eliminate variables and im still getting it. Im now brewing a stove top small batch with no copper immersion chiller to see if that's it.

 

[user 197168]

I too am having the same problem. I've probably done about 40 BIAB brews (after along stint with extract and specialty grain) and I am only now having this issue. I too have a copper immersion chiller, that, I have to admit, hasn't been getting as well cleaned as it used to.

I also now have a tap on my brew pot, which I didn't before. That said, it still doesn't add up. I have had two sour beers intermittently (very similar taste). I wish I could narrow it down.

 

[Radboud]

FWIW, I was able to narrow my specific problem down to yeast. I only get this tartness when I use a British strain such as Nottingham. MJ M07 gave me the same tartness. It might be some other variable (such as water mineral content) interacting with these yeasts but when I use US-05 or a Belgian yeast I do not have it at all (or when it does happen it quickly mellows out).

 

[brewbama]

I had a "weird" taste I resolved with a stainless fermenter a while back. I guess there was an issue with the plastic buckets I was using.

 

[clevefails]

Had similar problem turned out to be my water would not rinse the ozyclean away.filter my water now and no problems for a year now

 

[TheMadKing]

I agree that what you're describing sounds like an infection, but you've repeatedly said you've never had an infection. Are you basing that on the fact that you've never seen a pellicle? Because not all infections will make one, especially at lower temps.

The two chemicals that seem to best match what you're describing are acetaldehyde and Buteryc Acid.

From BeerandBrewing.com

Certain yeast strains, such as American lager yeast (White Labs WLP840) produce more acetaldehyde than others, and indeed, a slight suggestion of green apple can be an appropriate component of light American lager styles. In most styles, however, perceptible green apple is considered a flaw. The best ways to avoid acetaldehyde in your homebrewing are to

Maintain flawless sanitation practices.
Pitch an appropriate amount of yeast.
Fully oxygenate wort at pitching.
Avoid racking beer off the yeast trub before fermentation is complete.
Avoid introducing oxygen into your beer after fermentation.
Keeping young beer in contact with a healthy population of yeast encourages re-absorption of acetaldehyde and can go a long way toward reducing this unwanted compound. So stay patient, and wait a few days after reaching terminal gravity before you rack that beer to secondary.

Butyric is an off-flavour that can occur in beer, it is generally perceived as baby sick, rancid or putrid flavour. Caused mainly by bacteria either during the wort production phase of brewing or in sugar syrups. It can also be produced by bacteria when beer become spoiled once it’s been packaged.

Butyric acid tastes like puke, straight up puke... There is no mistaking this one
Acetaldehyde can be more subtle and tastes tart like green apples, and is desirable is very small quantities in light beers. My money is on this... So maybe you are packaging too early?

EDIT: Sorry OP I didn't notice the age of this thread until after I posted... if you've already ruled all this out, disregard

 

[dsaavedra]

I agree that what you're describing sounds like an infection, but you've repeatedly said you've never had an infection. Are you basing that on the fact that you've never seen a pellicle? Because not all infections will make one, especially at lower temps.

The two chemicals that seem to best match what you're describing are acetaldehyde and Buteryc Acid.

From BeerandBrewing.com

Certain yeast strains, such as American lager yeast (White Labs WLP840) produce more acetaldehyde than others, and indeed, a slight suggestion of green apple can be an appropriate component of light American lager styles. In most styles, however, perceptible green apple is considered a flaw. The best ways to avoid acetaldehyde in your homebrewing are to

Maintain flawless sanitation practices.
Pitch an appropriate amount of yeast.
Fully oxygenate wort at pitching.
Avoid racking beer off the yeast trub before fermentation is complete.
Avoid introducing oxygen into your beer after fermentation.
Keeping young beer in contact with a healthy population of yeast encourages re-absorption of acetaldehyde and can go a long way toward reducing this unwanted compound. So stay patient, and wait a few days after reaching terminal gravity before you rack that beer to secondary.

Butyric is an off-flavour that can occur in beer, it is generally perceived as baby sick, rancid or putrid flavour. Caused mainly by bacteria either during the wort production phase of brewing or in sugar syrups. It can also be produced by bacteria when beer become spoiled once it’s been packaged.

Butyric acid tastes like puke, straight up puke... There is no mistaking this one
Acetaldehyde can be more subtle and tastes tart like green apples, and is desirable is very small quantities in light beers. My money is on this... So maybe you are packaging too early?

EDIT: Sorry OP I didn't notice the age of this thread until after I posted... if you've already ruled all this out, disregard

Haha! Yes this is quite an old thread and yes I have cleared up my issues.

It's hard to say what exactly cleared up the problem, since I implemented 3 new upgrades at the same time, but I think the biggest issue was water. My tap water has high alkalinity, so for the first upgrade I bought a RO filter and started using straight RO water adjusted with minerals and acid to reach a desired mash pH. Second upgrade I built a cooler mash tun to help maintain proper mash temps and started batch sparging. Third thing I upgraded was temperature controlled fermentation. I don't think this improved my beer a whole lot compared to the RO and insulated tun/batch sparging since I was previously using a swamp cooler so my ferment temps were pretty much in check. But holy hell is it more convenient to put the carboy in the fridge, punch in the temp you want it to be, and walk away for 3 weeks.

Anyway, that tart taste (which I really really suspect came from too high of a mash pH and my generally crappy water - solved by using RO with minerals and acid) is gone and I am making some very enjoyable beers now!

 

[dsaavedra]

I'm having issues with all of my lighter beers having the same off taste. I recently read and reread several things about water chemistry and I'm convinced that my highly alkaline water is to blame. I hadn't been adjusting my water at all and according to calculations, my mash pH was probably around 6 most of the time. Everything else I'm doing seems to be good, standard practice so it almost has to be the water. I bought some lactic acid that I used last time but I haven't tasted the results yet. Trying to understand water chemistry is frustrating, but I think I'm almost, sort of, just barely starting to get the gist of the basics.

Ditto. High alkalinity and lighter beers can product a very unpleasant taste. This plagued my first 10 brews before I finally sucked it up and had my water analyzed.

Before resorting just to lactic acid in order to bring down mash pH, find out the mineral content of your water. Adding gypsum (for SO4), CaCl (for Ca), and Epsom (for Mg) will also lower pH. That way you add beneficial mineral content and kill two birds with one stone. Lactic acid in larger amounts is supposedly perceptible in the taste.

I pretty much determined that this was my issue. My beer improved night and day after I started using 100% RO water adjusted with salts and acid. I also started using an insulated mash tun and batch sparging, as well as using a temperature controlled fermentation fridge at the same time I started using RO water. My beers are quite tasty now!

Sorry I kind of abandoned this thread and never provided any resolution!

 

[eRicphtgr]

I pretty much determined that this was my issue. My beer improved night and day after I started using 100% RO water adjusted with salts and acid. I also started using an insulated mash tun and batch sparging, as well as using a temperature controlled fermentation fridge at the same time I started using RO water. My beers are quite tasty now!

Sorry I kind of abandoned this thread and never provided any resolution!

I am happy that you solve your problem. My latest AG batch of dunkel hefeweizen has a little bit of bitter and sour taste while the beer temperature raise up. It wasn't obvious (or not aware of) when serves at 40F. Not sure it was caused by the Belgium Chocolate malt or tannin from grain.