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Ale Yeast/Lager Yeast... Does it matter?

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jvp0719

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What makes a Lager a Lager and an Ale an Ale? Is it the yeast and it's corresponding fermentation temps alone?

Here is my real question, Let's assume I have a perfect Lager Clone. A Clone that has no noticeable difference between the commercial beer and my home brew. If I replace the Lager yeast with an Ale yeast and ferment at Ale temps how much will my home brew be different? Will the beer be unrecognizable due to the change? Will it only have subtle differences? I know that no one can know the exact answer for sure, but I am relying on those more experienced then me for their opinions. Thanks for your time.
 
Perfect time for a batch off . Make 5 gallons and split it into 2.5 batches .Lager one then use Ale yeast in the the other . I'd like to do a mixture of lager batch then add to ale batch like Sam 76 .
 
What makes a Lager a Lager and an Ale an Ale? Is it the yeast and it's corresponding fermentation temps alone?

Here is my real question, Let's assume I have a perfect Lager Clone. A Clone that has no noticeable difference between the commercial beer and my home brew. If I replace the Lager yeast with an Ale yeast and ferment at Ale temps how much will my home brew be different? Will the beer be unrecognizable due to the change? Will it only have subtle differences? I know that no one can know the exact answer for sure, but I am relying on those more experienced then me for their opinions. Thanks for your time.
Good question! Wlp 800 is an ale yeast used and sold as a lager yeast.there's your answer :)
 
The yeast world is tops turvy right now with the genome study revelations. But if Sam Adams brewed Boston Lager but substituted SO-4 yeast it would make a difference in flavors produced and attenuation therefore sweetness/hop unbalance.
 
The yeast world is tops turvy right now with the genome study revelations. But if Sam Adams brewed Boston Lager but substituted SO-4 yeast it would make a difference in flavors produced and attenuation therefore sweetness/hop unbalance.

If sam adams used their same yeast but increased or decreased their fermentation temp by 10 degrees, or ramped differently, the flavor would probably change also. It's not just the strain, but how you use it.
 

It's whatever you want to call it. The kolsch yeast strains are ale strains, top fermenting, cool tolerant, and definitely have some esters that lager strains don't. They are fermented at the very bottom of the temperature range they can tolerate. But a kolsch is also lagered. Keeping in mind that the term "lager" simply means to "store". Maybe the term "Cool Fermented Lagered Ale" would be the best fit?
 
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Lagers are fermented colder.... about 50F or lower. Too much warmer than that and you'll throw esters that make it taste like an ale, whether its a true lager yeast or not.

If you've never done it before and you have the equipment it's worth a split batch to experiment. There's a reason why there are different yeasts. One makes smooth crisp clean lagers, and the others make ales.
 
It's whatever you want to call it. The kolsch yeast strains are ale strains, top fermenting, cool tolerant, and definitely have some esters that lager strains don't. But a kolsch is lagered. Keeping in mind that the term "lager" simply means to "store". Maybe the term "Lagered Ale" would be the best fit?

What the industry wants to call it, I still agree to Ron Pattinson.

The BJCP explains this better:

The most general categorization of beer styles by yeast type is a modern craft brewing phenomenon. American brewers and most other craft brewers call beers ales if they use top-fermenting (ale) yeast and lagers if they use bottom-fermenting (lager) yeast. Most categorization systems will allow for a third classification, often called spontaneously-fermented because of the method; however, wild is perhaps a more widely-used modern craft beer term for these beers fermented with bacteria or non-saccharomyces yeast. The term wild in this context does not imply spontaneous fermentation; most are directly inoculated with the desired fermentation strains.
In Germany and other old world brewing centers, the terminology most typically used to differentiate beers is to refer to them as top-fermenting or bottom- fermenting. Germans think of ale as a type of English beer, and lager as a method of conditioning beer. So Germans would typically speak of Kölsch as a top- fermenting lager beer, not an ale.
English brewers, particularly when dealing in a historical context, might separate ales from porters and stouts as types of beer (although in the next breath, saying there is no difference between porters and stouts). When dealing in even more historical contexts, they might go even further to describe ale as distinct from beer in that beer was hopped (or more highly hopped) than ale. These historical notes are important for understanding old recipes and writings, but have little relevance today in the common usages of terms describing beer.
These guidelines attempt to use the modern craft beer definitions of ale, lager, and wild as the major groupings of beer styles, but will mention how they might be described in local or regional contexts, if possible.
 
Great topic.

The primary difference that I would suggest is different species. Sacch. pastorianus has extra genetic stuff that S. cerevisiae does not have.

Other than that, I've used pastorianus warm and gotten great award-winning results... and cerevisiae cold and gotten great results there too. So... does it really matter?! Overall.... I would say no. Each strain has specific traits, which will change at different temperatures. Play around and do what you like.

In the end, you'll make beer. Probably very good beer if you know why you're doing what you are doing... and maybe still very good even if you don't know what you're doing or why. Go for it. Experiment. Have fun.
 
If I replace the Lager yeast with an Ale yeast and ferment at Ale temps how much will my home brew be different? Will the beer be unrecognizable due to the change? Will it only have subtle differences?

It depends on the ale yeast - some are very clean, some produce lots of fruit flavours, some produce phenolic flavours and so on. It's a bit like asking if you can replace a female singer with a man. A drag artist may give a convincing "clone" performance, Pavarotti would give a performance that was amazing but completely different, but give me the mike and people would be running for the doors. We're all genetically different, and have been exposed to different environments - I will never have the innate talent of Pavarotti but I suspect with singing lessons I could at least hold a tune, conversely I probably have better genes for body shape than he did, but diet and exercise could have made him more slimline.

Although it's fashionable to talk about hops, yeast probably has more influence on the final taste of a beer - as well as contributing flavours of its own, it can change the sweetness and body of a beer, and even change the flavour profile of the hop compounds. Try a cheap and easy experiment - make 5gallons of a 5% SMaSH out of pale malt and Chinook and split it into 5 single gallons. Ferment them with different yeasts - if Fermentis are cheapest for you, then use US-05, BE-134, T-58, WB-06 (or Lallemand Munich Classic if you can get it) and your favourite lager yeast, or replace the lager yeast with S-33 if you're happy to just compare ale yeasts.

They're all ale yeasts but you will end up with very different beers - in particular if you compare the US-05 with the T-58 you'll notice that the T-58 is sweeter (less attenuation), the yeast contributes a slight pepperiness to the beer - and the grapefruit of the Chinook has turned into something more limey, you would think they were made with different hops. Such is the power of yeast. (You could do the same experiment with a more lager-y hop like Saaz, I don't know if T-58 will do such obvious things to Saaz though, quite possibly not)

Just generally - I wouldn't get too hung up on trying to define lager too exactly. It's one of those terms that the man on the street knows it when he see it, but biology doesn't like to be defined too precisely, the boundaries blur when you look at it in detail. For instance, you have California Commons (steam beers) that ferment lager yeast at ale temperatures, and kolsches that ferment ale yeasts at lager temperatures. So are they ales or lagers? As has been mentioned, it gets even messier once you start looking at DNA - WLP800 Pilsner is actually an ale yeast supposedly derived from a strain used to make Urquell, you can't get much more classic a lager than that! Conversely it turns out that WLP051 California V Ale is actually a lager yeast, but it was traditionally thought to be an ale yeast and was always fermented warm.

Also we now know that the lager family consists of two groups, Saaz and Frohberg, which are so different that it's been argued they should be considered different species. The Frohberg group (which includes 34/70) has more ale DNA, and can ferment cleanly at higher temperatures (see this thread) than the Saaz group which contains the classic low-temperature lager yeasts.

Then again, you also have to consider fermentation conditions. Bud ferments their "lager" at 61F (16C), which they can get away with because the high pressures inside their huge fermenters suppresses the formation of off-flavours by the yeast. That's the sort of thing that's hard to replicate at a homebrew scale.

Bottom line - don't worry about the name, just concentrate on making the best liquid possible. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet and all that.
 
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