Alchemist Crusher - Can you clone it?

[MrPowers]

Yes, most of what you're looking for is here:

http://chopandbrew.com/episodes/chop-brew-episode-22-john-kimmich-from-the-alchemist/

That's exactly the link that I was going to post. Here is the same information on youtube:

Like most of the truly great beers out there, I don't think there is any particular "secret" ingredient to the majority of The Alchemist's beers. It's a simple recipe executed to perfection. John has spent years obsessing over all the little details, from ingredient selection to brewhouse practices, to ensure that every small step of the process is executed precisely the way that it needs to be to get his beers to turn out the way that he wants.

100% Pearl + Dextrose and maybe a VERY small percentage of some character malt (crystal 10-20), ultra high quality hops, and Conan should get you most of the way there. The key is in the process.

 

[telejunkie1]

I wouldn't be adding any biscuit or caramalts to this clone. Pearl malt and dextrose sugar....like Clyde said. My first guess is that the darker hue is going to come from more base malt in the mash. But I've done blind tastings in the past of HT vs FB vs Crusher and i'm like 75% sure they were all the nearly identical in color. At the time was assuming it was just more dextrose, but I may be mistaken by this recollection.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

I wouldn't be adding any biscuit or caramalts to this clone. Pearl malt and dextrose sugar....like Clyde said. My first guess is that the darker hue is going to come from more base malt in the mash. But I've done blind tastings in the past of HT vs FB vs Crusher and i'm like 75% sure they were all the nearly identical in color. At the time was assuming it was just more dextrose, but I may be mistaken by this recollection.

With a low mash temp and high SO4 in brewing liquor, I'm not sure dextrose is even used in all their IPAs

 

[Clyde McCoy]

If I recall correctly Kimmich ferments his Conan strain at 63*f and at .35/.40 mc/ml/*p. I’ll see if I can find the literature

All I found was this:

In his book IPA, Mitch Steele reports that The Alchemist uses a relatively low pitching rate (less than a .5 million cells per ml per degree Plato), fermenting at 68 F for a few days then up to 72 F

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2013/11/conan-ipa-and-yeast.html

 

[Dgallo]

All I found was this:

In his book IPA, Mitch Steele reports that The Alchemist uses a relatively low pitching rate (less than a .5 million cells per ml per degree Plato), fermenting at 68 F for a few days then up to 72 F

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2013/11/conan-ipa-and-yeast.html

I do remember seeing that too. But there was another podcast or article I read about Kimmich staying he ferments at 63. It stuck with me because I thought it was a very cool temperature for an ester producing ale strain. @couchsending do you have this reference? I have a feeling I saw you post about it a year or so about it

 

[day_trippr]

When I've run Conan at a low pitch rate and around 63°F or below it went wicked peachy - and imo not in a great way. But I've never tried a low pitch rate and run it that warm (68°F+). I'll try to remember this...

Cheers!

 

[samandbekah]

All of this is great info. Thank you all for providing the documentation references. I've seen that video too, that is a great one. And I 100% agree that this beer is about quality of ingredients, nailing down the process (and consistency) and "treating" the yeast and beer as a whole correctly.

I have read on many different threads about various temperatures that conan is fermented at... I still struggle with the low 60s as the target temp... guess we'll just have to test out different temps and report the results!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I would say the majority (90%) base malt and then some sort of biscuity type malt... I do get some sweetness in the beer but I think that's from the finishing gravity... Crusher used to be 9.3 or 9.5% I believe and the sweetness I do believe is coming from the maltiness as well as controlling the attenuation...

So I would say 80 -85% base British 2-row/pale ale malt, 8-12% biscuit malt and then another 3-7% of some sort of head retention and flavor malt such as a really low L caramalt like cara-10 or 15

That sounds like classic homebrewer overcomplication. I've not had any of their beers, but Pearl would definitely give you some biscuitiness, so I'd work on the assumption that the grist is straight Pearl as a first approximation.

If I recall correctly Kimmich ferments his Conan strain at 63*f and at .35/.40 mc/ml/*p. I’ll see if I can find the literature

I still struggle with the low 60s as the target temp...

It sounds like he's heavily influenced by British practice, what with proper Burtonisation and everything, so it wouldn't surprise me if he's fermenting it like a Brit - pitch in the low 60s, free-rise to 68-70F until about halfway, then finish the rest of fermentation no higher than 65F, maybe even condition at 55F. Might explain different sources citing the pitch temperature and the top of the free rise.

 

[MrPowers]

That sounds like classic homebrewer overcomplication. I've not had any of their beers, but Pearl would definitely give you some biscuitiness, so I'd work on the assumption that the grist is straight Pearl as a first approximation.

It sounds like he's heavily influenced by British practice, what with proper Burtonisation and everything, so it wouldn't surprise me if he's fermenting it like a Brit - pitch in the low 60s, free-rise to 68-70F until about halfway, then finish the rest of fermentation no higher than 65F, maybe even condition at 55F. Might explain different sources citing the pitch temperature and the top of the free rise.

I agree with starting with straight Pearl with some dextrose and proceeding from there.

His yeast management practices are also common in lager brewing as well. He spent his early brewing career was working under by Greg Noonan who wrote the book "New Brewing Lager Beer". It's very common in lager brewing to pitch at 44, free rise to 48-50 and hold, spund and condition at 45 until carbonated and then step the temperature down. I would guess that is where a lot of his brewery practices come from.

 

[couchsending]

The only recommendation from Kimmich I’ve seen was in Mitch’s book and that was a pitch rate of .6mil/ml/*plato. First few days at 68 then ramp to 72. I know everyone says 63 to get peach but I always thought people did that cause US05 is peachy at those temps.

If you have a good pitch of Conan it will ferment really low. Kimmich ferments Kenny’s Kolsch at 56 for instance. I’ve made beers with Conan using a lager pitch rate and fermenting at 56. Beer was done in four days! And no peach.

The issue is getting some good Conan yeast. The commercially available stuff is a seriously finicky yeast and all the places that sell it probably harvested it originally from a 7% or 8% beer. People say the Gigayeast version is the best. Personally I find the Yeast Bay version to be better. It’s more reliable, faster, and floccs better. I think it’s closer to the actual “VT Ale” that Noonan gave to Shaun and John to use. The low floccing, slow yeast is what you get when you harvest from cans of IIPA.

Crusher is definitely mostly Pearl with maybe a touch of Caramalt for color and some dextrose. That’s it. It’s a different beer now than what it used to be. Pretty sure it’s 8% now. Honestly every time I get some I always prefer it to Heady. It definitely has some modern fruity hops.

I don’t know what temp the Alchemist dry hops at. However I’m pretty sure they fill Grundy tanks full of bagged pellets and push the beer after fermentation through the pellets. Pretty sure all of their beers are a blend of four different ferments (heady is for sure). They don’t double batch into one tank but do four turns into separate tanks then blend into a conditioning tank then transfer again into a Brite and can off that. Wouldn’t surprise me if they krausen in the conditioning tank but I don’t know that. They don’t use a pump on anything but push the beer with No2 from place to place.

John notoriosly likes hard water so I’d shoot for hardness around 500 for a IIPA.

His dry hop rates used to be 1.5-1.75 #/bbl not sure if that’s still the case with customers wanting more and more from hoppy beers now.

 

[MrPowers]

Decided to do a single malt Pearl/Dextrose IIPA with Conan, you know, for science.

I hopped this one with 40ibu of extract to bitter and Summit/Idaho 7 in the whirlpool/dry hop. I would say the malt character is a perfect starting point for Heady/Focal/Crusher.

Mine came out much softer and rounder than any of the alchemist IPA’s. I soft crashed pre-dry hopping, only used 400ppm Sulfate, and naturally carbonated with CBC1.

I think you could really push it into the 500-700ppm range for sulfate and 60-80ibu calculated bittering addition and you would be in the ballpark.

 

[Dgallo]

Decided to do a single malt Pearl/Dextrose IIPA with Conan, you know, for science.

I hopped this one with 40ibu of extract to bitter and Summit/Idaho 7 in the whirlpool/dry hop. I would say the malt character is a perfect starting point for Heady/Focal/Crusher. N

Mine came out much softer and rounder than any of the alchemist IPA’s. I soft crashed pre-dry hopping, only used 400ppm Sulfate, and naturally carbonated with CBC1.

I think you could really push it into the 500-700ppm range for sulfate and 60-80ibu calculated bittering addition and you would be in the ballpark.View attachment 689800

Looks great. Seems like a **** ton of sulfate though. Did you push it based off a reference?

 

[MrPowers]

Looks great. Seems like a **** ton of sulfate though. Did you push it based off a reference?

I don’t remember if it was in here, but I recall hearing an interview where John says he can/sometimes will push the sulfate that high in his IPA’s:



I’ve been slowly working up to it on all my NEIPA’s, even ones that are supposed to be “Juicy”. I started out trying 225ppm, then bumped up to 300, now this one at 400. It doesn’t come across as chalky/salty/mineraly at all and it really does help the hops pop—even using CBC1 to natural carb. A lot of NEIPA’s tend to have too much sweetness that lingers in the finish. Running the sulfate high, you can pack a lot of malt flavor and late hops in and still retain some balance and drinkability. You can still keep the beer soft and juicy, but dry enough to keep coming back for more.

 

[betty_ford]

Decided to do a single malt Pearl/Dextrose IIPA with Conan, you know, for science.

I hopped this one with 40ibu of extract to bitter and Summit/Idaho 7 in the whirlpool/dry hop. I would say the malt character is a perfect starting point for Heady/Focal/Crusher.

Mine came out much softer and rounder than any of the alchemist IPA’s. I soft crashed pre-dry hopping, only used 400ppm Sulfate, and naturally carbonated with CBC1.

I think you could really push it into the 500-700ppm range for sulfate and 60-80ibu calculated bittering addition and you would be in the ballpark.View attachment 689800

Nice, I’ve been thinking about really cranking up the sulfate lately. I won’t be able to brew any ipas any time soon, but definitely have this on my radar, along with your exact malt bill and a high level of ibu and some classic American hops. I’ve just been craving that alchemist flavor in my ipas and nobody else does it quite like them. I prefer the balance compared to the juice coming from the rest of the northeast personally.

 

[Dgallo]

I don’t remember if it was in here, but I recall hearing an interview where John says he can/sometimes will push the sulfate that high in his IPA’s:



I’ve been slowly working up to it on all my NEIPA’s, even ones that are supposed to be “Juicy”. I started out trying 225ppm, then bumped up to 300, now this one at 400. It doesn’t come across as chalky/salty/mineraly at all and it really does help the hops pop—even using CBC1 to natural carb. A lot of NEIPA’s tend to have too much sweetness that lingers in the finish. Running the sulfate high, you can pack a lot of malt flavor and late hops in and still retain some balance and drinkability. You can still keep the beer soft and juicy, but dry enough to keep coming back for more.

I’ve seen a report where a cab of heady was tested and it came back at 430ish sulfate but I didn’t know how much came from the grains and what wa s their target

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Decided to do a single malt Pearl/Dextrose IIPA with Conan, you know, for science.

I hopped this one with 40ibu of extract to bitter and Summit/Idaho 7 in the whirlpool/dry hop. I would say the malt character is a perfect starting point for Heady/Focal/Crusher.

Mine came out much softer and rounder than any of the alchemist IPA’s. I soft crashed pre-dry hopping, only used 400ppm Sulfate, and naturally carbonated with CBC1.

I think you could really push it into the 500-700ppm range for sulfate and 60-80ibu calculated bittering addition and you would be in the ballpark.

I've done a few IPAs recently that were ~575 ppm sulfate and 35 ppm chloride. They came out great, not overly bitter as is often claimed, but very dry. Much drier than Heady Topper in side-by-side tastings. The Ward report I've seen for finished Heady is 468 ppm sulfate. There's not a ton of data on this but from what I have seen brewing liquor -> finished IPA is ballpark +150-250 ppm sulfate. So that would put Heady starting at ~250-350 ppm sulfate. I think this is probably roughly accurate, though they might go higher on some batches (all cans are blend of 4 brews). The brew sheet released was ~650 ppm sulfate and 35 ppm chloride total brewing liquor (including sparge, 776 gallons for 15 BBL batch), but based on my experience brewing this hard, I'd be pretty surprised if they're always doing this. Of course my beers weren't Pearl/Conan so my comparison could have been closer, and I can't make beers like John Kimmich can...

 

[betty_ford]

I've done a few IPAs recently that were ~575 ppm sulfate and 35 ppm chloride. They came out great, not overly bitter as is often claimed, but very dry. Much drier than Heady Topper in side-by-side tastings. The Ward report I've seen for finished Heady is 468 ppm sulfate. There's not a ton of data on this but from what I have seen brewing liquor -> finished IPA is ballpark +150-250 ppm sulfate. So that would put Heady starting at ~250-350 ppm sulfate. I think this is probably roughly accurate, though they might go higher on some batches (all cans are blend of 4 brews). The brew sheet released was ~650 ppm sulfate and 35 ppm chloride total brewing liquor (including sparge, 776 gallons for 15 BBL batch), but based on my experience brewing this hard, I'd be pretty surprised if they're always doing this. Of course my beers weren't Pearl/Conan so my comparison could have been closer, and I can't make beers like John Kimmich can...

No, but trying is fun.

 

[MrPowers]

I've done a few IPAs recently that were ~575 ppm sulfate and 35 ppm chloride. They came out great, not overly bitter as is often claimed, but very dry. Much drier than Heady Topper in side-by-side tastings. The Ward report I've seen for finished Heady is 468 ppm sulfate. There's not a ton of data on this but from what I have seen brewing liquor -> finished IPA is ballpark +150-250 ppm sulfate. So that would put Heady starting at ~250-350 ppm sulfate. I think this is probably roughly accurate, though they might go higher on some batches (all cans are blend of 4 brews). The brew sheet released was ~650 ppm sulfate and 35 ppm chloride total brewing liquor (including sparge, 776 gallons for 15 BBL batch), but based on my experience brewing this hard, I'd be pretty surprised if they're always doing this. Of course my beers weren't Pearl/Conan so my comparison could have been closer, and I can't make beers like John Kimmich can...

Where is that brew sheet?

I would say that could be in the ballpark. I'm in Iowa, so I don't have any Heady to compare to. Mine is just calculated at 400, so it's hard to say where the final numbers worked out. I brew low oxygen, so my beers tend to come out less bitter and with more malt flavor than average. I wouldn't call this beer dry, but

Nice, I’ve been thinking about really cranking up the sulfate lately. I won’t be able to brew any ipas any time soon, but definitely have this on my radar, along with your exact malt bill and a high level of ibu and some classic American hops. I’ve just been craving that alchemist flavor in my ipas and nobody else does it quite like them. I prefer the balance compared to the juice coming from the rest of the northeast personally.

A lot of it depends on your brewing technique too. I brew low oxygen, so my beers consistently come out more malty and less bitter than they used to. It’s not the classic alchemist flavor, it’s a lot softer and rounder than I’ve had from them.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Looks great. Seems like a **** ton of sulfate though.

Not by British standards - some of the deep wells in Burton go up over 1000ppm, and several hundred ppm SO4 is pretty normal here.

 

[gbbeer]

Convenient time to see this thread as I just got my first four packs of Heady Topper and Focal Banger.

 

[MrPowers]

Convenient time to see this thread as I just got my first four packs of Heady Topper and Focal Banger.

Welcome to the rabbit hole!

 

[stickyfinger]

I'd love to try Pearl malt again, but the last time I did I got two full sacks of it and both gave me a medicinal/smokey character that destroyed the IPAs. I think they were Fawcett. I'd agree Alchemist is doing something to get a very nice unique malt background, which must be Pearl malt, but not like the stuff I used...

 

[MrPowers]

I'd love to try Pearl malt again, but the last time I did I got two full sacks of it and both gave me a medicinal/smokey character that destroyed the IPAs. I think they were Fawcett. I'd agree Alchemist is doing something to get a very nice unique malt background, which must be Pearl malt, but not like the stuff I used...

I honestly don’t think there is anything particularly special about Pearl malt. You do need it to get in the ballpark of the alchemist character, if that’s what you’re shooting for.

Compared to Golden promise, pearl has head retention and isn’t as sweet. Compared to maris otter it’s more neutral and less toasty, but it has a similar sweetness. Compared to Rahr 2-row it’s slightly more bready, and had similar beer properties (turbidity/head retention/etc...).

I personally think it falls somewhere between rahr 2-row and maris otter, leaning closer to Rahr 2 row.
- Rahr 2-row is white bread off the shelf at the supermarket
- Pearl is fresh baked white bread
- Maris Otter is toasted, fresh baked white bread
- Golden promise is graham crackers

Its a nice malt, but in my own beers, I can’t justify paying a premium for it. I’ve never gotten any of the smoky/medicinal character from it! I would say that’s probably just a fluke.

 

[samandbekah]

Hey everyone,

Bumping this thread to see if anyone has any new insight and/or attempted a crusher clone. Going to get back into brewing soon, and this is still my favorite double IPA.

 

[beervoid]

I've had it recently, damn it's such a unique hop bomb. Description says dryhopped with Citra so I guess it's a single hopped Citra beer. The bitterness is something out of this world for sure. I find it hard to believe they used Conan for it as the haze was super thick.