First Hazy blues

[Tony B]

So I’ve been brewing since about the beginning of the year. I have made eleven 5 gallon batches. Still working on my process and learning a lot and finally decided to try a hazy. I ordered a bunch of hops from Hops Direct. Namely El Dorado, cascade and an experimental (X-14) that was described as a dual purpose variety noted to be similar to mosaic.
I read a lot of different techniques and recipes. I used a total of almost 12 ounces of hops in it. Mostly flame out, whirlpool and dry hop.
I am stuck using kviek for no temp control and went with White labs hornindal. I can list the entire recipe but mostly concerned with a hop issue.
It’s not at all hoppy. it tastes ok. Just no hop punch. Not much in the way of hops at all. Kinda like a juicy blonde ale.
I’m wondering if the hops degraded during shipping or were just not great to begin with. Smelled them all separately and the El Dorado smells decent. Maybe not as pungent as it should be. The cascade smells like cascade and is probably the strongest smelling of the three. The X-14 had little aroma.
I actually added another half ounce of each to the keg after tasting it prior to kegging.
I’m trying to decide if I should add a couple ounces chinook or Columbus that I have in the freezer to get some hop punch.

 

[Whisky River]

I actually added another half ounce of each to the keg after tasting it prior to kegging.

How old is this batch? What were your cold side oxygen control processes? Closed transfer? Purged keg? Purged lines?
Reduced hop character is one of the primary signs of oxidation.
If you added more hops after fermentation, were you able to prevent oxygen exposure? Maybe adding some potassium metabisulfate would help but if it’s already oxidized it might be too late.

 

[Tony B]

How old is this batch? What were your cold side oxygen control processes? Closed transfer? Purged keg? Purged lines?
Reduced hop character is one of the primary signs of oxidation.
If you added more hops after fermentation, were you able to prevent oxygen exposure? Maybe adding some potassium metabisulfate would help but if it’s already oxidized it might be too late.

I wasn’t even getting any hop punch from the hydrometer samples prior to kegging.
With so much hops in the FV I was afraid of clogging the liquid post so I decided to just rack to keg with open lid and tube going from spout on FV to bottom of keg. Before racking I crushed 1 campden tablet and got it into solution in hot water and tossed that and some hops into the bottom of the keg.
It’s been in the keg since Friday night. Its drinkable. Just a bit blah.

 

[Boleslaus]

Just to clarify are you talking about lacking hop aroma when you stick your nose in it or lack of bitterness?

 

[Kickass]

I don’t brew many IPA’s and have never brewed an NEIPA because I’m too lazy and cheap to go through all the cold side O2 mitigation techniques. These beers require the utmost attention to cold side O2 and will likely improve when you can start doing closed transfers to a CO2 purged keg.

 

[wepeeler]

It would help if you posted your recipe. 12oz of hops in a 5 gal batch should get you plenty of hop punch. Warm uncarbonated beer won't have a ton of hop aroma prior to kegging, but you should be able to smell them. Maybe you some oxygen when transferring and it killed the aroma? Hard to tell without knowing your process.

 

[Tony B]

Just to clarify are you talking about lacking hop aroma when you stick your nose in it or lack of bitterness?

Yes. Being a hazy, I only added a small FWH for bittering. 8g El Dorado.
I sampled it again last night and it’s not bad. Not showing signs of oxidation. It has a nice, light orange color and moderate haze. Tastes a little juicy, but zero hop aroma.

 

[Tony B]

It would help if you posted your recipe. 12oz of hops in a 5 gal batch should get you plenty of hop punch. Warm uncarbonated beer won't have a ton of hop aroma prior to kegging, but you should be able to smell them. Maybe you some oxygen when transferring and it killed the aroma? Hard to tell without knowing your process

Link…
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1457254/stony-ridge-hazy
I was going for a lower ABV. This recipe doesn’t show the keg hops I added which were 0.5oz each of the three hops.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I'm still thinking you need more hops, I'm seeing 3 oz in the whirlpool and 4oz in the dry hop plus 1.5 oz in the keg... I would up it to 1oz per gallon in the whirlpool and 2oz per gallon in the dry hop. That will get you closer, also if you have access to other hop varieties, swap that cascade for citra. Yes oxygen kills these beers and I have fallen victim to that even when I feel like I have my process nailed down, you likely won't see the effects of oxidation for about 2 weeks or so. When that time comes, the beer will darken some and lose some haze and the flavor and aroma will be more muted. My neipas typically shine at the 2 to 3 week mark, so if you don't get oxidation look for the beer to improve over the next week or 2.

 

[wdavis2003]

I'm sure I'll get push back on this because everybody's mileage may vary, but I've stopped brewing hoppy beers. They never turn out "punchy". I think the quality of hops available to homebrewers are not as good as what the big boys get. I choose to brew lagers and purchase my hoppy beers from breweries that know what they are doing.

I'm sure it's just me and not the hops, but it's a big investment to brew a hoppy batch of beer and I was just tired of throwing my money away. I've made one or two good ones, but the hop "punch" doesn't last long.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I'll get push back

I won't give to much push back on that, though it doesn't help the op haha... I get where you're coming from, throwing a lot of money at a batch and having a lackluster result is very disappointing. I have spent a decent amount of money and time on hops (and equipment) over several years, and feel I've gotten to a point where if I wanna brew a hazy it's not a waste.. or any style for that matter. No you don't need to spend a lot of money on equipment to brew a hazy but you should have oxygen free transfers and dry hops if possible.

 

[HM-2]

I'm still thinking you need more hops,

100%.

If you want "proper" juice, even in a session strength beer, you need to be up at 8-10g/L whirlpool and DH, this is circa 5g/L which probably accounts for a big part of it. Splitting the 1min boil additions between whirlpool and DH would probably help.

I typically target 12-16g/L equivalent in a standard (6ish %) hazy and have gone as high as 20g/L in DIPAs. I recently brewed a 6.4% all BRU-1 hazy that had 16oz of 20% AA Cryo hops in it and it was an absolute juice machine.

The grain bill also strikes me as quite unusual. 35% Munich is more than I'd touch even in a WCIPA and with 2% crystal too that's going to be throwing a whole load of grain flavour that'll help drown out your hopping. Next time I'd ditch both entirely, go for ~77% pale malt with circa 10% each of wheat and flaked oats and maybe 3% of dextrin malt or golden naked oats for extra body.

1.012 is also IMO too low an FG for a hazy, even a session one. They need to be over 1.015 really. I target around 1.016 for a 5% hazy, 1.018 for a 6% one, 1.020 for a 7% and 1.022 for 8%. Mash on the hot side to build body and/or use a lower attenuating yeast instead of Kveik. You can get thermotolerant strains that are well suited without the Kveik-ness that Kveik throws.

My other questions would be around water chemistry and process. Oxygen exposure will kill hop flavour dead long before it turns your beer brown.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Good point, not gonna lie I skipped right over the grain bill. I agree with @HM-2 there.

 

[Tony B]

I'm still thinking you need more hops, I'm seeing 3 oz in the whirlpool and 4oz in the dry hop plus 1.5 oz in the keg... I would up it to 1oz per gallon in the whirlpool and 2oz per gallon in the dry hop. That will get you closer, also if you have access to other hop varieties, swap that cascade for citra. Yes oxygen kills these beers and I have fallen victim to that even when I feel like I have my process nailed down, you likely won't see the effects of oxidation for about 2 weeks or so. When that time comes, the beer will darken some and lose some haze and the flavor and aroma will be more muted. My neipas typically shine at the 2 to 3 week mark, so if you don't get oxidation look for the beer to improve over the next week or 2.

I also added 3 ounces at flame out and added the campden to the keg which is supposed to take care of the potential oxidation. We’ll see. I may throw a handful of chinook or Columbus in the keg tonight.

 

[wepeeler]

Link…
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1457254/stony-ridge-hazy
I was going for a lower ABV. This recipe doesn’t show the keg hops I added which were 0.5oz each of the three hops.

The boil hops and WP should give you a good hop base. DH is a little light, but being a 1.047 OG beer, I would think you'd have plenty of bitterness. Maybe increase the DH to 6oz and go up from there? Most brewers here are 8+oz for 5 gal batches but also have higher ABV. I'm usually 8oz DH for a 7% beer and adjust up from there. I also do a 3oz 3 min addition a 3oz WP addition.

(Ditch the caramel malt and the campden tablet.)

 

[Tony B]

100%.

If you want "proper" juice, even in a session strength beer, you need to be up at 8-10g/L whirlpool and DH, this is circa 5g/L which probably accounts for a big part of it. Splitting the 1min boil additions between whirlpool and DH would probably help.

I typically target 12-16g/L equivalent in a standard (6ish %) hazy and have gone as high as 20g/L in DIPAs. I recently brewed a 6.4% all BRU-1 hazy that had 16oz of 20% AA Cryo hops in it and it was an absolute juice machine.

The grain bill also strikes me as quite unusual. 35% Munich is more than I'd touch even in a WCIPA and with 2% crystal too that's going to be throwing a whole load of grain flavour that'll help drown out your hopping. Next time I'd ditch both entirely, go for ~77% pale malt with circa 10% each of wheat and flaked oats and maybe 3% of dextrin malt or golden naked oats for extra body.

1.012 is also IMO too low an FG for a hazy, even a session one. They need to be over 1.015 really. I target around 1.016 for a 5% hazy, 1.018 for a 6% one, 1.020 for a 7% and 1.022 for 8%. Mash on the hot side to build body and/or use a lower attenuating yeast instead of Kveik. You can get thermotolerant strains that are well suited without the Kveik-ness that Kveik throws.

My other questions would be around water chemistry and process. Oxygen exposure will kill hop flavour dead long before it turns your beer brown.

I appreciate the input. Water chemistry was in the recipe. I used RO and added salts to mash water. 4g Gypsum for 75ppm, 4g chloride for 125ppm and 2g salt for 28ppm. Calcium at 84ppm.
I used the Munich mostly for color. What does your standard grain bill look like?
I’m stuck with kveik until next winter. No temp control.
I’m trying to decide if I should open the keg and throw a few more ounces of hops in there or just drink it and upgrade the next batch.