Alabama Homebrewer Arrested

[Zamial]

I wanted to clarify my thought, from earlier. I think the "Home Brewing of beer" is not the MAIN problem with THIS case. The main problem is the STILL + SHINE.

The headlines should have read "Moonshiner with guns gets busted with homemade whiskey + beer." NOT "Homebrewer gets raided, whiskey still found, all equipment and guns confiscated." THIS is the point I am trying to make and drive home.

If this would have been any other "good ole boy with a still" story, it would be white noise in the banjo twangs...(I genuinely mean no offense by that)...but someone decided to put that "dramatic spin" on the title which leads people to a different idea.

IMO this was done intentionally to help "demonize" homebrewers and home brewing. I do not think the people that started this story, ever really intended on getting a bunch of attention. To me, this stinks of a (in the most arrogant southern twang you can muster) "Lets strike the fear of the Lord into all the rest of these beer drinking, devil worshipers in MY wonderful state of 'Bama"." gone horribly wrong...and now we all watch and speculate.

 

[Hermit]

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness

It may not be in the constitution, but it IS our justification to be an independent nation. Majority rule should not be a means of revoking individual rights.

 

[ExHempKnight]

Any debate about this is completely moot at this point. 99% of the people weighing in on this thread are in no way involved with the situation, and as such, can only speculate.

Truly intelligent and meaningful debate has all the facts. Conjectures, opinions, beliefs, etc. are not facts.

 

[passedpawn]

Any debate about this is completely moot at this point. 99% of the people weighing in on this thread are in no way involved with the situation, and as such, can only speculate.

Truly intelligent and meaningful debate has all the facts. Conjectures, opinions, beliefs, etc. are not facts.

Errr... apparently you didn't notice that conjecture fuels most of the discussion on forums like this. It's part of the premise of a forum.

 

[martinworswick]

i've read the first few pages of this thread a while ago and not looked again until now,there are a few posts with references to a still and moonshine, were these actually discovered? there is no still in the picture and speculation that any of the liquids are homemade spirits are just speculation? have i missed something somewhere?

 

[suprchunk]

BTW, Germany's drinking age is 16.

Um, only to buy it.

 

[KPatton]

The only thing in the picture that could have been construed to be part of an illicit still, was the conical fermenter. All the other "contraband" was mere beer making equipment, hops, yeast starter etc. The addition in the pictures of the guys hunting rifles was pathetic, like the Barney Fife's were trying their best to make him out to be some organized crime type. The analogy of a still and a meth or crack dealer is absurd. Selling both of them is illegal, not so with alcohol. If the guy was making and selling his shine, bootlegging, then I could see him being prosecuted. If it was for his consumption, then it is no different in my book than what everyone on this board does regularly. We make alcohol to drink. The only difference is he likes to concentrate his through distillation. If you didn't know, that one last step is the only difference between making beer and making spirits. The Alabaman officials just show that they are ignorant and behind the times, and do not want to reliquish a penny of their tax monies. They are a bunch of bible belt throwbacks. I bet they were playing the theme song from the Untouchables in their squad cars and had the opportunity to wear all the shiny new SWAT team apparel and equipment they got after 9/11 to protect Podunk, Alabama from Islamic terrorists.

 

[Air Pirate]

That one little step though is a federal crime, regardless of your opinion on whether or not it should be.

He appears to have admitted to distilling with the 'fuel' comment. pity.

I hope that he is able to get off without too much cost.

I hope that we learn what happens to him.

 

[WrongCoastBrewery]

That one little step though is a federal crime, regardless of your opinion on whether or not it should be.

He appears to have admitted to distilling with the 'fuel' comment. pity.

I hope that he is able to get off without too much cost.

I hope that we learn what happens to him.

Indeed. But knowing that region like I do, he probably will get the book, maybe a bible, thrown at him. Thats too bad too. The OP's link had talk of starting a defense fund for the guy. Wonder if that ever happened?

 

[daedelus902]

If there's no beer in heaven, I don't want to go.

"I will not drink this wine with you again until you are with me in paradise".

See you there!

For all you anti-religious home-brewers. Relax, have a home brew!!!

 

[olllllo]

Just a reminder that this is the General Beer Discussion forum and not the debate forum. You can talk in general terms about the larger issues surrounding this case, but a 2 way debate about religion won't be tolerated nor will a point-by-point dismantling of someone's post.

Remember the intent of this post is to inform about the AL situation. Take your political and religious discourses somewhere else.

 

[Justibone]

i've read the first few pages of this thread a while ago and not looked again until now,there are a few posts with references to a still and moonshine, were these actually discovered? there is no still in the picture and speculation that any of the liquids are homemade spirits are just speculation? have i missed something somewhere?

The guy admitted to having a bit of alcohol, his explanation was he was experimenting with using it to power his tractor or something like that.

 

[Hawgbranch]

Right. Joining the AHA is one of the best ways to help states where hb is still illegal. And, you get a year of Zymurgy magazine.

I wish they could accumulate enough info for Monthly issues instead of Bi-monthly. I love the magazine but I wait 60 days for it and read it in 1 hour. But, having that AHA card is a bonus. Especially the AHA rallies at local breweries.

 

[Justibone]

Back on topic:

If he had an unlicensed still, I'm sure that would be the most serious charge. I believe that if he was homebrewing for personal use, and not selling it or providing it to minors, the sentence would probably be very light. He'd probably plead it out for parole and a fine.

If the DA is pushing it, then he/she probably either 1) believes this man is a moonshiner and needs to be made an example of or 2) cynically believes he/she can (or must) score points against Demon Alcohol for some constituent group or another. Maybe he or she has been watching Boardwalk Empire and got all misty over Prohibition days.

 

[Zamial]

Back on topic:

If he had an unlicensed still, I'm sure that would be the most serious charge. I believe that if he was homebrewing for personal use, and not selling it or providing it to minors, the sentence would probably be very light. He'd probably plead it out for parole and a fine.

If the DA is pushing it, then he/she probably either 1) believes this man is a moonshiner and needs to be made an example of or 2) cynically believes he/she can (or must) score points against Demon Alcohol for some constituent group or another. Maybe he or she has been watching Boardwalk Empire and got all misty over Prohibition days.

From the OPs link and on P3 of that forum:

New Information- looks like illegal distilling may have also been involved.
This is from the Blount Countia

"Whiskey still seized
by Ron Gholson
Deputies found and closed down a beer and whiskey-making operation Saturday at a private residence on Joy Road, according to Blount County Sheriff Loyd Arrington. Five stainless steel cookers used to make both white lightning and beer were seized in the raid along with about eight gallons of whiskey and 50 gallons of beer. "

THIS is also MY issue here as well...I believe I have made that pretty clear. I do not wish the worst for this fellow but IF he did have a "still + white lightning" he flat out deserves what he gets.

I do understand that whiskey is delicious IMO it goes great with beer. I love it so much that it is the ONLY booze I ever drink! I often carry my own flask of it. That does not mean I get to run a still!!!!!

I went and found it in the archives of the paper. Here is the link: http://m.blountcountian.com/news/2010-08-18/News/Whiskey_still_seized.html

read it yourself...he HAD A STILL!!!!

 

[tunoffun]

THIS is also MY issue here as well...I believe I have made that pretty clear. I do not wish the worst for this fellow but IF he did have a "still + whi
te lightning" he flat out deserves what he gets.

I think you've made it abundantly clear. And continue to do so.
You're obviously very passionate about the subject.
Sadly, you don't seem to have very much passion at all for what this man went through to secure your freedom to flap your gums on the internet.

Now this man who went to war for our nation won't be able to vote. He can't own a gun to protect his family. And he'll have a hard time even making a living.

You think he 'deserves' that for brewing beer and owning a still (which according to his statement wasn't being used for alcohol)? Really? You think the punishment fits this 'crime'?

I'd say we're all in agreement that, according to the information we're provided, he did break the law.
What's in question is the penalty that should be prescribed, whether the laws are just to begin with, and frankly... whether the DA/sheriff would be better of using their time to prosecute the scum of the earth that not only haven't fought for their country, but go out of their way looking for ways to do other people harm.

So my question to you is: Why aren't you passionate about those issues?????

 

[Revvy]

I think you've made it abundantly clear. And continue to do so.
You're obviously very passionate about the subject.
Sadly, you don't seem to have very much passion at all for what this man went through to secure your freedom to flap your gums on the internet.

WHAT DOES BEING A VET HAVE TO DO WITH BREAKING THE LAW???? Hell if anything he should be MORE responsible and law abiding. MORE RESPECTFUL of the LAWS he risked his life to uphold.

Heck he gives both homebrewing and vets a bad name.

Do we excuse vets from selling drugs? From Robbing Banks? From Shop Lifting? From Speeding Tickets? Tell me where the hell it says that vets get a free ride in this country to pick and choose what laws they can abide by or not?

My dad earned TWO bronze stars, TWO Purple Hearts and a crapload of other medals, not to mention the loss of mobility in his right arm from a Japanese Sniper's Bullet, and he was one of the most law abiding citizens I ever new. He never even Jay walked. And he would have been the first to kick this guy's ass from here to heaven for breaking the law.

So don't hand me that BS, about being a vet, and getting a free ride....

Who was it that said, "don't do the crime if you can't do the time." All those things that he can't do now that he has a record...like vote..HE KNEW that is what happen to folks who are convicted of crimes in this country. He made a choice to risk the punishment for disregarding the law.

You know, it looks like Michigan may be one of the first states to legalize home distilling. Believe me the minute that happens I'll be making some mash...But NOT a minute before it is legal to do it. He didn't HAVE to start distilling...he could have spent his time lobbying for a change in the law...without intentionally breaking the law.

 

[batonrougegu]

50,000 dollars worth of equipment,if he was making all of these for "himself"
50 gallons of beer not to mention hooch or still even being a "master brewer"
he would of been over the 100 gallon limit in no time

I am not shooting the fact that hes a vet,just the fact that that is ALOT of equipment.

 

[CaptainCoconut]

I find it interesting that even though pretty much everyone here believes homebrewing should be legalized in AL, and it seems that many if not most believe that he should have been left alone for homebrewing even if it is illegal there, almost everyone is in agreement that he should expect to get hammered if he had a still. What's the difference? Please don't just tell me, "because it's illegal everywhere." Homebrewing used to be illegal everywhere too (inside the USA). Just because an idea is popular doesn't make it correct.

I am not advocating distillation, and I do not distill, but in a discussion context, what's the difference between homebrewing and distilling? I can guarantee there are some people on this board that make 205 gallons or more of homebrew a year, can someone explain why distillation's in a completely different category? I know about methanol, but that's not a factor if you do it correctly. Owning a can of gasoline's not illegal just because it's dangerous. I'm aware of the tax implications, but I think that's a cop-out. The government would make way more taxing 200 gallons of beer than a few quarts of hard alcohol.

I understand the difference in a political context, as far as homebrewers distancing themselves from it because it's politically harmful for their own agenda, but do most people here really believe that homebrewing is fine but distillation is actually a "bad" thing to do?

If these is inappropriate for this thread, please feel free to move it, olllllo, but I think it is on-topic.

 

[tunoffun]

My dad earned TWO bronze stars, TWO Purple Hearts and a crapload of other medals, not to mention the loss of mobility in his right arm from a Japanese Sniper's Bullet, and he was one of the most law abiding citizens I ever new. He never even Jay walked. And he would have been the first to kick this guy's ass from here to heaven for breaking the law.

Really? You sure about that?

Would your father have spent 3 years side-by-side with a man who likely saved his life on more than one occassion (and vice versa), only to turn him in once back in the states for having a still in his backyard?

I doubt the answer's yes, but if it was... I'd have serious questions as to his depth of character.

 

[tunoffun]

I understand the difference in a political context, as far as homebrewers distancing themselves from it because it's politically harmful for their own agenda, but do most people here really believe that homebrewing is fine but distillation is actually a "bad" thing to do?

That NAILS IT.

And that is EXACTLY what some people here are doing.., throwing a vet under the bus - and not caring in the least what happens to him - because he's posed an indirect - and most likely ineffectual - threat to their petty interests.

Sad.

 

[Revvy]

You didn't just do that did you? You didn't just attack my late father's character did you? I really hope you didn't..Because if you did, simply because I disagreed with You, you better hope I never meet you in person......

 

[tunoffun]

You didn't just do that did you? You didn't just attack my late father's character did you? I really hope you didn't..Because if you did, simply because I disagreed with You, you better hope I never meet you in person......

Take the time to calm down & actually read what I wrote and you'll have your answer.

BTW - I'm not the one who brought your father into this. You're the one who did that.

How could I possibly attack the character of a man I've never met?
So no - I don't have anything unkind to say of your father.

In fact - because I know he fought for our country - I'll give him the benefit of the doubt without even knowing him. And he has my heartfelt thanks for the sacrifice he made for me, and everyone else. See how that works?

 

[CaptainCoconut]

Revvy, are you really comparing robbing a bank with an activity that doesn't harm anyone?

For the record, I am a veteran, and I'll be the first to fight or disregard a law that I believe is wrong. Please note that I make a big distinction between what I believe is wrong and what I disagree with. I pay all my taxes, and if even there's a law that I flat-out disagree with, I'll still follow it, as long as it's not something that the government has absolutely no business enforcing to begin with. I'm aware that most would say that's a slippery slope, and I myself don't have much confidence in the average person to make that distinction, but ultimately it's my own decision.

Usually our judicial system protects us, but once they start legislating things that they have no business doing, I don't feel I should follow those laws. For example, did you know that for military members, it is against the UCMJ to get a BJ from your wife? Do you think I'm going to abide by that law?

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

did you know that for military members, it is against the UCMJ to get a BJ from your wife? Do you think I'm going to abide by that law?

I just gotta get a quick LOL in before these few posts get deleted.

 

[ryan0914]

No I don't think he was attacking your fathers character. What I think he was trying to say that there is a different kind of bond than you think between us vets. One you truly wouldn't understand just talking with your dad about it. You just have to experience the things we did.

 

[CaptainCoconut]

I just gotta get a quick LOL in before these few posts get deleted.

Is what I said really that inappropriate? I'll delete it if it is, but seriously? I think it highlights my point quite well. Can you think of a more appropriate example of something that no one has any business legislating?

 

[Revvy]

Revvy, are you really comparing robbing a bank with an activity that doesn't harm anyone?

Did you actually noticed how I structured those crimes...I went from Bank Robbing down to traffic tickets.. Do you actually believe that you have right as a vet to get off on anything considered a crime in this country, even a misdemeanor? I'm not comparing it to bankrobbery, but right now it is a crime, even if I don't agree that it should be.

I believe for your service that you have the right to free health care for the rest of your life, I believe that you should never have to fear being homeless, or starve, or die alone and un recognized, hell I believe that you should have free tickets to the surperbowl for the rest of your life even. But I don't believe that you or any vet gets a free ride to break the laws of this country, no matter how small they are. Don't soldiers have to swear an oath upon entering their service about upholding the laws of the land? Seems that that got tossed out the window....

 

[Zamial]

I am a vet. My father,Uncle, Grand father and Great uncle have all severed. This has nothing to do with the issue here. I actually prior to oIIIIo cleaning of this thread HAD RIPPED someone a new one and explained my stories. I then realized I am NOT in the debate forum and did not need to literally rip a fellow homebrewer "a new one."

I am going to post up a gem of a quote FROM the debate forum. This quote has actually made me question some of my replies there. I think it needs to be said here.

It is highly likely that people might not answer your beer question if you behaved like a tool here.

This should probably be in everyone's mind just floating about.
We are all on the same team here. Unfortunately this fellow got caught with a still and shine. So, he broke a FEDERAL LAW. Whether it is a good law or not is really not up to a few people on the internet. If we do not agree we need to start to lobby and change things on the federal level as well as our states not become outlaws and take matters into our own hands.

That IS the problem. That is also the solution. It is just that simple to me.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Is what I said really that inappropriate? I'll delete it if it is, but seriously? I think it highlights my point quite well. Can you think of a more appropriate example of something that no one has any business legislating?

I was agreeing with you. That is one stupid rule that deserves to be ignored.

 

[CaptainCoconut]

Did you actually noticed how I structured those crimes...I went from Bank Robbing down to traffic tickets.. Do you actually believe that you have right as a vet to get off on anything considered a crime in this country, even a misdemeanor? I believe for your service that you have the right to free health care for the rest of your life, I believe that you should never have to fear being homeless, or starve, or die alone and un recognized, hell I believe that you should have free tickets to the superbowl for the rest of your life even. But I don't believe that you or any vet gets a free ride to break the laws of this country.

I don't expect to get a free ride, but I feel it's my duty as an American to fight injustice and tyranny. If I go to jail doing it, that's part of the deal. That's what made this country what it is, people who wouldn't lay down and play the game just to save their own skin, they fought to make it better (including the civil rights movement). On the other hand, of course I wouldn't break a law concerning something insignificant if the punishment was extreme, but I suppose everyone's a hypocrite to some degree.

I agree if you do the crime, you can expect to do the time, and I never said that the guy in AL shouldn't expect to be punished, he knew what he was doing. I was asking why people feel the way they do about distillation. I brought up the point that even the people who are saying that he should get a free pass for homebrewing are still disgusted that he would break distillation laws. Why is that?

 

[tunoffun]

Don't soldiers have to swear an oath upon entering their service about upholding the laws of the land? Seems that that got tossed out the window....

No.

"I will support and defend the constitution of the united states against all enemies, foreign and domestic. That I will bear true faith and allegiace to the same. I will obey the orders of the POTUS and the officers appointed over me in accordance with the UCMJ".

To summarize, you take an oath to the constitution and your superiors, with the exception of unlawful or unconstitutional orders.

It could easily be argued that refusing to comply with laws which you don't believe are in keeping with the constitution, is actually in-keeping with your military oath. I believe it could also be argued that laws restricting what you can produce and consume for the purposes of personal use are not in keeping with the constitution. At a minimum not in keeping with its intent if not the actual verbage.

 

[Revvy]

I brought up the point that even the people who are saying that he should get a free pass for homebrewing are still disgusted that he would break distillation laws. Why is that?

Because even though it may still be illegal in the state of Alabama to homebrew (I think, I can't keep track anymore where it is,) it is STILL Federally Legal since 1978 to make beer for our personal consumption. And it took 40+ years after the volstead act was repealed before it was legal to do so.

But on a federal level Homebrewing is legal. Distilling of spirits isn't...it's pretty cut and dried. I'm not arguing state's rights here, but on a Federal Level Homebrewing is legal. The other isn't.

We still are looked down on despite the laws. Hence the double standard between wine and beer and homewinemaking and homebrewing. Home winemaking was either never made illegal during prohibition or it was instantly legalized with the repeal. Homebrewing wasn't.

Wineries CAN ship wine directly to the consumer, but breweries can't. Even high end ones like Stone or Rogue. Hell you can get a 100 dollar bottle of wine shipped to you from a winery but you can't get a bottle of Utopia sent to you from Sam Adams.

Beer is still considered the purview of rednecks and frat boys, not a serious thing.

Some folks still think you can go blind drinking homebrew.

Other's can't distinguish what we're doing with making meth.

Hell even some cops look on what we're doing with suspicion.

Don't believe me? Check out this Cops episode if you haven't already....look at what "John Law" has to say about our little hobby. "The concotion he was making could be deadly..."



The problem is that they have tied his distilling crime with homebrewing, so a homebrewer is looked at as a criminal. So homebrewing and beer is looked at in the same light as distilling and even meth making.....Or int he case of the guy on cops, growing pot.

It makes us look bad. It makes beer look bad. Some of us work passionately to elevate beer and this hobby to the same level with wine and winemaking. As something that should be taken serious. Gourmet wine, gournet food, gourmet beer. Wine culture, beer culture.

Like I said. I can't wait to get to play with distilling if it becomes legal. But until it is. I follow the law. And I try to change the law. But breaking the law in order to change it isn't necessarily the best way to go about it.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

It makes us look bad. It makes beer look bad. Some of us work passionately to elevate beer and this hobby to the same level with wine and winemaking. As something that should be taken serious. Gourmet wine, gournet food, gourmet beer. Wine culture, beer culture.

Personally, I just brew beer. I do it because I like my beer and it is legal to do so.

I see no point in trying to elevate my hobby into something it's not. It's good beer for drinking. I have zero interest in this new found "Culture".

 

[Revvy]

Personally, I just brew beer. I do it because I like my beer and it is legal to do so.

I see no point in trying to elevate my hobby into something it's not. It's good beer for drinking. I have zero interest in this new found "Culture".

Well that's your choice, in this country of ours. I didn't say all of us do, but SOME, myself included do try to take beer or ideas about beer to a higher level. Or at least try to get it looked at on an equal footing with wine.

That's why I'm writing a book on the history of brewing in my region. That's why I try to teach or write or speak about beer and food pairings. That's why I supported the creation of the cicceerone program and encourage restaraunts to have more respect for beer, and to have better beer in their establishment.

But I don't expect everyone to feel that way.

*shrug*

 

[CaptainCoconut]

Because even though it may still be illegal in the state of Alabama to homebrew (I think, I can't keep track anymore where it is,) it is STILL Federally Legal since 1978 to make beer for our personal consumption. And it took 40+ years after the volstead act was repealed before it was legal to do so.

But on a federal level Homebrewing is legal. Distilling of spirits isn't...it's pretty cut and dried. I'm not arguing state's rights here, but on a Federal Level Homebrewing is legal. The other isn't.

Please don't just tell me, "because it's illegal everywhere." Homebrewing used to be illegal everywhere too (inside the USA). Just because an idea is popular doesn't make it correct.

Underage drinking isn't illegal on a Federal level, but few would fight that here. Homebrewing laws were also specifically left up to individual States. I don't think the Federal argument is a valid one.

It makes us look bad. It makes beer look bad. Some of us work passionately to elevate beer and this hobby to the same level with wine and winemaking. As something that should be taken serious. Gourmet wine, gournet food, gourmet beer. Wine culture, beer culture.

I understand the difference in a political context, as far as homebrewers distancing themselves from it because it's politically harmful for their own agenda, but do most people here really believe that homebrewing is fine but distillation is actually a "bad" thing to do?

The political reasons are obvious, but I'm not sure that's what's fueling everyone's discussion here.

 

[batonrougegu]

More people than you think,think that brewing your own beer can make you go blind.Mostly people that don't brew and never have intention to do so often remain close minded because they "don't wanna go blind"

SO on another note I applaud Reevy and others to continue to encourage the open minded and hopefully the close minded people in America to brew,and show them that it can be done.And that more and more Americans are going to realize that enjoying your own beverage is very rewarding.

 

[Revvy]

The political reasons are obvious, but I'm not sure that's what's fueling everyone's discussion here.

Well I gave yo my reasons. It makes us look like criminals. It makes us look bad. I don't like to see us looking bad.

*shrug*

More people than you think,think that brewing your own beer can make you go blind.Mostly people that don't brew and never have intention to do so often remain close minded because they "don't wanna go blind"

SO on another note I applaud Reevy and others to continue to encourage the open minded and hopefully the close minded people in America to brew,and show them that it can be done.And that more and more Americans are going to realize that enjoying your own beverage is very rewarding.

Thanks!!!!

 

[CaptainCoconut]

For the record, if I ever was caught with a still, weed, nuclear weaponry, etc. I'd expect to be left high and dry as well, because I wouldn't want that associated with the homebrewing movement. I'd be ashamed that they caught me with the homebrewing gear because of the bad name it would give homebrewers by association.

My previous question, however, is about distillation in general. If the AL man in question had only beer-brewing equipment and his neighbor had the still, would we (not as homebrewing representatives, but as individuals) stand behind the homebrewer who's breaking the law, but be outraged by the distiller? They're both against the law, and both felonies... If your answer is "because homebrewing shouldn't be a felony," someone could always respond "distillation shouldn't either."

 

[olllllo]

Because as far as i know, there isn't an organization like the AHA in distilling nor are there large numbers of people that distill that are looking to make it more mainstream and appealing as a craft.

In fact, that it is illegal and has this bad boy reputation is invariably what attracts many distillers.

So, should I delete more of that religious / anti-religious argument or leave "Mr. I don't care's" words up there. I mean, after all, he did even the score and now I'm obliged to nanny all of these posts here in perpetuity.