AJC for an ice cider, and other newbie questions.

[GV00]

So after trying AO's "Iceman", I learned about ice ciders. Seems like a neat concept, and since I've got kind of a crummy sense of smell (and thus taste), I like the idea of a more flavorful cider. While I'm not averse to concentrating manually, I do have to wonder if there's a good reason not to skip some of the work and go with apple juice concentrate from a can. Is there a reason to avoid it, if it's free of preservatives? Granted it might not be quite as good as manually concentrating cider pressed by a local orchard, but we're far enough along in the year that that option seems unlikely.

I'm guessing someone's tried it, but my search-fu must be weak since I haven't really found it. Plenty of threads on concentrating, not so many of pre-made concentrate. Any old hands care to chime in with remembered results?

Also, I've got my first batch of cider (a few 5 liter jugs, each with a different yeast) sitting around now. I waited until the yeast fell out to rack them into smaller jugs (1 gallon, which they all filled pretty nicely). There's be zero sign of any continued fermentation on a couple of them, and the SG was constant for about 3 days before I racked them over. I'm sort of wondering what the point was, and if I shouldn't have just gone direct to bottle with them. I can't really tell if any further precipitate has formed, so I'm not sure they've clarified further at all.

So I guess at the end of the day, I'm not really sure when people generally rack to secondary containers, or why, if my results are normal. Does bulk aging confer some benefit that I've overlooked?

Oh, and as to some of the yeasts. Out of 4 batches, the one made with Wyeast 4184 (sweet mead, which was really just a splash from a smack pack I used to make some mead that has been providing me with headaches, but that's a different thread) was the favorite during early tastings. In my opinion, it was decidedly okay, but still not stellar. Nottingham and Red Star Champagne yeast produced some stuff that was...well, kinda nasty, to be honest. Both seemed kinda sulfuric, and this was shortly after the yeast had dropped out. Is this likely to clear up with aging, or perhaps a product of being too warm? Being a newb, I pitched the yeast at probably 85-90 degrees, and only found out that cooler=better to a point after about 7 hours, at which point I tried to cool everything down to the mid 60's. Since then, they've all been between 62 - 68 degrees pretty reliably (64 being the norm). If it's just a matter of aging, how long would it be wise to leave them in the current 1g jugs, and when should I bottle it? How long should I leave it alone before I crack one open to sample? How critical is temperature during this longer aging?

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

Thats a good question about starting ice cider with just concentrate. My thinking would be that the Original Gravity would be over the top and your yeast would be super stressed in the beginning. Leaving you with some off flavors which would only become concentrated in the final product. That said, concentrate is pretty cheap so it still might be worth a shot to experiment.

You don't have to rack to secondary vessels if you don't want to. Just go with what method works best for you. I wouldn't age my ciders on the lees for more than a month, but some do it with no adverse effects on the flavor. (Autolysis, it seems, is rare, but could occur) I also rack mine before the final gravity is reached because I like to have the additional fermentation build a layer of CO2 in the secondary vessel. Again, just a matter of personal preference I guess.

Temps are most critical in the first few days of the process where the bulk of the fermentation occurs. Higher temps will stress the yeast and produce off flavors so it's usually best to try and start out at as low a temp as your particular yeast can tolerate without stalling. During the height of fermentation the temps could rise as much as 10ºF. So if you pitched at 90º it probably went up from there for a while. I would try and shoot for low 60s if possible and never push any yeast above 70ºF that isn't built for high temps. Nottingham is a great yeast for cider because it ferments clean when used at lower temps. A sulfur smell/taste to me would indicate that it was stressed. (but could be other factors also)

You can crack them open and sample them at anytime along the process. You just have to keep in mind that the more you do the more it is open to getting an infection. I usually take a test when racking to secondary and at that point I know if there's something off with the flavor. If not, then it just sits for another month or so until I have a free keg. The beauty of making the same recipe over and over until it's perfected is that you pretty much know when something is done. (A week in primary - SG 1.020 - rack to secondary and a month later it's at 1.005) Of course milage will vary from brewer to brewer so you have to find your schedule by trial and error.

 

[MindenMan]

I am on my 4th or 5th batch of hard cider. I used FAJC in one and fresh apple cider in the other one I juiced myself. FAJC makes a decent hard cider, but in my experience, it has to age or it just isn't worth drinking. But, if it is freeze concentrated, the outcome is much different in terms of flavor and mouth feel. In the last two days, I have started five 2- liter bottles of different original gravities. Two of them are 6oz of FAJC, and the rest is store bought pure apple juice. 2 of the other 3 bottles left, are 12 oz FAJC and topped off with the same apple juice. The 5th bottle is what was left over from the other four bottles.
This morning, the 2 6 oz bottles had obvious signs of fermentation. The 5th bottle did not show fermentation, which is really odd as it had twice as much yeast added to it. The 12oz added bottles were started this morning, and come tomorrow, I hope everything will obviously be fermenting. My yeast I use for everything is London ESB 1968.

 

[GV00]

I'm going to do some experiments with this. I figure I'll basically be using a juice base and then raising the sugar content by adding AJC to bring it up to 1.100 or so. I'll probably run a few different experiments, actually, maybe trying a more yeast-friendly 1.060 - 1.070 and then doing staggered additions of AJC to kick the ABV content up to something around 12-13%. It'll be more labor intensive, but hopefully it'll avoid some of the issues I've had with mead getting really, really slow starts due to the tons of sugar present in the initial must.

Either way, it's probably less than $10 worth of consumables to run a gallon test batch, so I figure it's worth a try just to know.

 

[MindenMan]

Update almost 3 years later: I have had the opportunity to learn what to do and what not to do during the past three years, do: seriously control fermentation temps. Below 65*F is good, below 60*F is even better. I am now in a quest to see what king of ice cider I can make with what I have to work with. You can see my other posts for the long explanations, but here is the short version: use 4184 Sweet Mead Yeast for making ciders; ice cider, hard cider, and jacked cider. I currently have 14 bottles of ice cider in it's early stages and the flavors are amazing. I am using a base of T.T. 3 apple juice blend, and making up the rest of the gravity with FAJC. If I had not done this experiment myself, I would have called B.S. on somebody telling this story. Don't do: don't overfill fermenting vessels, as the plugged up airlocks help make the ceiling get painted with explosive hard cider.